Plant daffodils/tulips 12' deep to avoid frost heave?

14 years ago

I live in the Pacific Northwest (suburb of Seattle/Tacoma), watch a weekly local gardening show on TV hosted by Ciscoe Morris, he recently had a story about problems with bulbs (he was specifically talking about tulips) in our area blooming for one year then disappointing results (few come up next year, of them many don't bloom but worse most don't come up), etc.

He said the answer to it is to plant the bulbs 12" (yes 12" deep). I think he said frost heave is a big problem here and this helps avoid it and he obviously stated well drained soil a must or else they'll rot.

I've had disappointing results with tulips where I do get them to bloom nice one year but then hardly the following year just like Ciscoe says but I haven't been planting them more than 4-6" deep (bottom of hole depth) and have had similar problems with daffodils over time whereby they stop coming up or those that do come up don't bloom.

Anyway I was considering trying what Ciscoe recommends and do it both for tulips and daffodils -- 12" hole with some bulb fertilizer/compost mixed with soil at bottom of hole then bulb then sand to try and keep soil light.

I'm curious if anyone has tried this and if they can elaborate on what frost heave does to bulbs (moves them towards soil surface then frost damages the bulbs?)?

Thanks in advance!

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Comments (4)

Chemocurl zn5b/6a Indiana
14 years ago
Hi wynswrld98,

I certainly do not agree with what was said and I have never had frost heave on any bulbs. I have however had frost heave on numerous things (irises, small perennials, etc) planted too late in the season to get their roots established, thus anchored in the ground.

The main reason why tulips do not reliably return and bloom the second season, is that they are not actually perennial tulips. There is a big difference in tulips and the Darwin Hybrids have been bred to be much more perennial, and thus will return for successive seasons.

There could be numerous reasons why your daffs no longer bloom, but my guess is that they have multiplied, and the bulbs have grown smaller, because of dividing, and they just need dug and replanted with the proper spacing.
Daffodils planted a little deeper than the suggested depth, will not multiple as quickly as those planted at the suggested depth. Likewise, daffodil bulbs planted more shallowly than suggested, will multiply in number more quickly than if they were planted at the suggested depth.

If I were to plant daffs or tulips 12" deep here in my clay soil, chances are that they would never be able to have the strength to emerge and see the light of day, much less have enough energy to put forth a bloom.

Below are some links to some suggested reading.

Why Perennial Tulips are Better

Daffodils Not Blooming?

Sue...chemocurl
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
14 years ago
Sue is correct on why most tulips tend not to return year after year. And it has nothing to do with frost heave! BTW, frost heave in the Puget Sound area is non-existent anyway. Our soil never freezes to any significant degree - only an inch or two at most and that after a prolonged below freezing period, which are pretty uncommon here.

While Ciscoe is a dynamic TV and radio personality, he is not the be-all and end-all of gardening advice by any means and he often gives out very questionable information. Take what he says with a large grain of salt!! One of the most important concepts behind the perennializing of spring flowering bulbs is that they prefer to stay dry through the summer months. If they are planted in areas with other plants that get normal, frequent summer irrigation they are not as likely to return reliably. And make sure the area has very good drainage - anything that tends to absorb or hold moisture through the bulb's dormant period (summer into early fall) can lead to rot.

FWIW, the recommended planting depth for most bulbs is 3 times the bulb diameter. I've yet to see a tulip bulb that measured 4 inches across!!
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First, in general, tulips are not truly perennial in the southeast USA. We simply do not have enough winter cold for them to bloom year after year. You live in Switzerland, so I have no idea other than your zone number. In my area (zone 7b), they are typically good for one year only, and that, only if I refrigerate them for 8 to 10 weeks before planting out. Further north, like in northern Tennessee (zone 6), they may last for two or three years before they decline. They will continue to put up foliage for years, but only about l0% will bloom, with the percentage decreasing each year along with the size of the blooms. There are a few wildling tulips that will return here: clusiana, Cynthia, Tubergen's Gem, Lady Jane, saxatilis, and sylvestris being some. They are all, however, very short, and though nice, are simply no substitute for the tall holland bulbs we all know. As to the daffodils. It doesn't matter so much how shady your area is in the summertime. What matters is the amount of shade it gets in late winter to early spring. If your shade is from deciduous trees, you should be in good shape. If it's from buildings, your bulbs will decline over a few years time. They need full sun while their foliage is up so that the bulbs can ripen for the next year. (I assume you know to never cut the foliage back till it dies naturally.) I have grown all three daffodils you mention. None persisted for more than a few years here in my warm climate. The best cyclamineus I have grown is Tete-a-Tete. It continues to bloom and multiply yearly under a deciduous tree. One clue for you is that most daffodils like a good long summer baking. If your soil is quite moist all summer long, an awful lot of them will rot. I have had the best results with daffodils in the jonquila class. If you're interested and it seems fitting to your climate, the book "Garden Bulbs for the South" by Scott Ogden is excellent. It's my go-to for all new purchases.
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Is the reason for digging to keep them blooming? This Sat I will be with a bunch of folks who grow daffs to show and will try to remember to ask about the 3 year digging rotation schedule that so many try to follow. If I remember correctly, it had to do with them needing to be lifted/dug so the surrounding soil in the holes could be amended. Over time, the blooms, of some cultivars anyway, will decrease in size if they do not have proper nutrients. I'm not sure, but lack of good nutrients 'could' also affect the bloom color. Don't hold me to that though as I will try to verify that. Usually too, when daffs are planted for growing and showing, I 'think' no more than 3 bulbs are planted, spaced out in a hole. That allows the bulbs to multiply without becoming crowded, thus smaller bulbs, and smaller blooms, or no blooms at all if they are entirely too crowded. Some daffs are a lot more prolific than others and seem to multiply a 'lot' more than others. In my opinion, Ice Follies is a great prolific daff. On the other hand, 'Mount Hood' still has the original patch I planted with fewer and fewer blooms. I wonder if they are crowded or if they are lacking nutrients. Some cultivars are just by nature bigger bulbs, so it could possibly be that they are crowded, regardless of how many were planted in each hole and how they were spaced. Do you plan to dig them next year? I'm not suggesting that diggings one's daffs every 3 years is for everyone, because I don't see it as necessary at all, unless one is considering entering them in competition. As far as the FAQ go, I feel they are to be geared toward the casual gardener, growing daffs, or whatever for their own enjoyment in their gardens. Sue
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katob Z6ish, NE Pa
14 years ago
Sounds like you already have enough good advice..... I just couldn't help but chime in on how annoying I think Ciscoe Morris is. I didn't realize he had his own show, I've only seen him as a guest on gardening by the yard.
tugbrethil
14 years ago
Tulips aren't a big thing here in the subtropical desert, but now I'm left with a question: if tulips aren't bred to be perennial, how do they get them to multiply and grow to blooming size in the Netherlands?
By the way, the Darwin Hybrids do do better than most tulips here, also.

Plant daffodils/tulips 12' deep to avoid frost heave?

Comments (4)

Chemocurl zn5b/6a Indiana

gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

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katob Z6ish, NE Pa

tugbrethil

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