Avs - it is really much easier. Your first hybrid comes from the seeds you created, selected out of a bunch of so-so babies etc. etc. then you need to reproduce it from leaves 2 (3?) more times - and be sure that in 3 generations you plant doesn't sport like crazy. To speed it up people put down juvenile leaves from a baby - so if the majority of your babies, babies of babies blooms true - you can register it. I guess you can do it in under a year. Cheers irina You cannot do it if you got lucky up and developed a chimera.

In today's Wall Street Journal. The paper had several photos - looks like by Victor Schrager from Amy Goldman's book. The link might not work forever, so I pasted the article below. Hope I have the images working right. By ANNE MARIE CHAKER Black varieties: These heirlooms often hail from Russia and are known for their salty or smoky flavor. Victor Schrager/The Heirloom Tomato In the kingdom of vegetables, the heirloom tomato is high nobility. Genetically unchanged from one generation to another, it offers an intense flavor prized by gardeners and gourmets. But it has a reputation for being persnickety in the garden. While modern hybrids are tweaked and improved to resist common diseases, the old stalwarts seem to easily succumb to pathogens that can cause plants to suddenly wilt just as they seem ready to produce. Tasty Tomatoes View Slideshow A selection of cherry heirloom tomatoes. Now, as gardeners prepare to plant this summer's crop, a number of plant breeders are offering hybrids they claim have the distinct flavors and funky looks of heirlooms but are more disease-resistant and abundantly productive. To tomato purists, the hybrids amount to heirloom heresy. "I cringe when I hear the term 'heirloom hybrid,' " says Amy Goldman, board chairwoman of the Decorah, Iowa-based nonprofit Seed Savers Exchange. The group champions the tradition of passing along heirloom seed from one generation to the next. Some of the new varieties are bred to better withstand diseases and microscopic critters that can harm plants. Little worms are why Roger Chetelat can't grow heirlooms. "The soil where I live is infested with nematodes," says the director of the C.M. Rick Tomato Genetics Resource Center at the University of California, Davis. Killer Tomatoes The basics on growing this popular plant * Start seeds indoors four to six weeks before the last expected frost date. * Gradually 'harden' seedings by bringing them outdoors for a few hours a day. * Transplant into the ground in spring once soil has warmed. * Space them a few feet apart and water down into the roots, avoiding leaves. This year, W. Atlee Burpee & Co. in Warminster, Pa., is introducing a variety called Tye-Dye, a red-and-yellow marbled tomato that it promotes as "delivering all the heirloom flavor of Big Rainbow, Pineapple and Georgia Streak, with bigger yields, consistent form and better disease resistance." Park Seed Co. in Greenwood, S.C., promotes a ribbed tomato called Country Taste as having "the meaty, flavorful, tangy bite of yesteryear's tomatoes without the poor disease resistance and small yields that plague so many heirlooms." Territorial Seed Co., based in Cottage Grove, Ore., this year offers Golden San Marzano, a yellow version of San Marzano, which is a classic heirloom plum tomato. Growing Gadgets The key to growing great tomatoes is to keep plants supported and off the ground to avoid rot and encourage better production. Some products that can help. Planted now or in the coming weeks, most tomatoes are ready to be picked at high summerJuly and August in most parts of the country. Eating home-grown tomatoes that have delicately ripened on the vine (and not been battered in shipping) is one of the best eating experiences money can't buy. Just add salt, a little olive oilÂor nothing at all. Breeders say they have been hearing from market growers clamoring for the look and taste of heirlooms but crossed with attributes that make them easier to grow on a larger scale. So in addition to creating more disease-resistant varieties, hybridizers have been working on giving tomatoes a longer shelf life and making shapes more uniform for ease of packing, and creating more compact plants that are easier to maneuver. "There was such a high demand for heirlooms in the grocery store," says Patty Buskirk, owner of Seeds by Design Inc., a wholesale seed supplier in Maxwell, Calif. "The semi-professional gardeners were asking me to come up with a hybrid that has some kind of uniformity and disease resistance." Beating the Blight Researchers at Cornell University have identified some heirloom and hybrid tomato varieties resistant to late blight. See chart These varieties are now becoming available to home gardeners. Ms. Buskirk's first innovation was a hybrid based on the classic Brandywine tomato, known for its pink color and intense, rich flavor. The result was Brandymaster, which entered the marketplace about three years ago, and which she describes as having a Brandywine flavor, but more uniformly shaped fruits and better resistance to diseases. More recently, she created both yellow and red versions. Totally Tomatoes, a catalog affiliated with J.W. Jung Seed Co. in Randolph, Wis., this year is selling Ms. Buskirk's innovations in all three colors. A packet of 30 seeds sells for $1.95. Ms. Buskirk also developed a variety called Patty's Yellow Striped Beefsteak, which is bred to look somewhat like the popular heirloom Big Rainbow, but with more intense flavor, uniform shape, and bigger yields. Cook's Garden, a catalog owned by Burpee, last year began selling itÂa pack of 25 seeds for $3.95 or three plants for $12.50. Some home tomato growers say such new hybrids threaten an important gardening heritage. One advantage to heirlooms is that, unlike hybrids, seed from a plant can counted on to grow looking like the parent. "Heirlooms fill a distinct niche and empower the gardener," Ms. Goldman, author of "The Heirloom Tomato: From Garden to Table," says. "Not only is there a sense of satisfaction from growing at home, but also self sufficiency." Still, she says, there is a place in the world for both hybrids and heirlooms. Robin Eley The old varieties have become increasingly coveted for their weird shapes, funky colors, and rich flavors that span the spectrum from fruity to salty. Some are deeply ribbed, like Purple Calabash. Others have an "oxheart" shape, tapered at the end, like Hungarian Heart. A number of varieties that are almost black in color hail from Russia, like Black from Tula. Others are yellow (Manyel), orange (Flamme) or green (Aunt Ruby's German Green). Stories of their provenance and discovery are part of the appeal. Many of the qualities that make heirloom tomatoes appealing to home gardeners make them more of a challenge for larger-scale growers: Great flavor produced by heirloom plants sometimes comes at the expense of higher yields. Unusual shapes and softer fruit require special handling, which drives up cost. And because heirlooms generally grow on big vines, they need more trellises and supports. Ms. Goldman concedes that while some heirloom varieties can be finicky, that's not necessarily the case for all of the thousands of heirloom varieties that exist today. "There are so many heirlooms that are high to very-high yielding and that perform just as well or better than any hybrid you can imagine," she says. She recommends that home growers try a schedule of different types that tend to produce in succession, to ensure a long harvest. Her suggestions on some particularly hardy varieties: For very early maturity, either Ceylon (a ribbed red variety) or Black Cherry (a maroon cherry tomato). That's followed by either Flamme (a tangerine-colored globe tomato); Yellow Peach (a peach-textured yellow) or Red Rose (a pink globe). Then she recommends Gold Medal (a bicolor beefsteak), followed by Opalka, a blood-red paste tomato, for late season. She also says that many home gardeners don't space tomatoes far enough apart, which can encourage leaf diseases to spread rapidly. She gives her plants five feet of room. Watering should be infrequent, but deepÂat least an inch a week is the rule of thumbÂand aimed directly at the roots, not on the leaves. And most of all, provide tomatoes plenty of direct sunlightÂat least eight hours a day. Write to Anne Marie Chaker at anne-marie.chaker@wsj.com

If you saved seeds from a hybrid tomato and planted them, would the resulting plants be one or the other of the two parents? (Let's keep it simple by not having more than that.) Or could you come up with an entirely different tomato not like the hybrid and not like either parent? **** If you planted the saved F2 seeds from a known hybrid you wouldn't really get plants that resemble either parent genetically. You're assuming that there are only two parents and that was true with some of the earliest hybrids bred but is not true for more modern hybrids where there are two breeding lines, both OP, that lead to the creation of the final hybrid and each line can have up to maybe 4 genetic inputs. YEs, some have tried dehybridizing a known heirloom and I did it with Ramapo F1 , which is one of the earlier hybrids that has only two parents, and others have done it with Sungold F1 and Big Boy and Dona and others. I tried to dehybridize Big Boy but only to get out the one parent, Teddy Jones, a large pink heirloom from the midwest, and Dr. Oved Schifriss, who bred Big Boy, told me that I'd be lucky to get out only about 80% of the genes for Teddy Jones. (I've read threads where people are enthusiastically "dehybridizing" tomatoes and have wondered if the aim is to grow one or the other parent or rather a new plant altogether. I've been unable to understand what the goal is. Tomato Fest has seeds of a dehybridized Big Beef that seems to have most of the BB characteristics but is OP. It's just not clear to me if it's a "new tomato" or just one of the BB parents.) Since one can never get out 100% of the genes of any known hybrid such as Big Beef, you can only assume it has most of the traits of the original hybrid by growing both and comparing. The goal in dehybridizing known hybrids is to get an OP version that resembles the original OP so that hybrid seeds don't have to be bought. Another goal for just a few folks is tog et out just one parent, but I don't know of others who have tried that other than myself with Big Boy and Teddy Jones, although there must be others who have their own projects. The other situation is where quite a few folks now are doing their own crosses, creating hybrids and then dehybridizing those to look for interesting plants/fruits in the F2 and F3 generations, making selections, and then continuing to grow out and make selections to get an OP derivative that's genetically stable in that all seeds planted give the same plants/fruits. There are also those situations where an accidental cross has occurred to create a hybrid and sometimes folks save the F2 seeds, etc., and plant out just to see what they get. So any OP version of a known hybrid doesn't usually have all the genes that the original hybrid had. I'm linking to the website of Keith, who posts here so you can read about dehybridization and how long it would take to get nearer and nearer to 100% of the genes back. I should live so long. LOL From the home page click on CULTURE and then select what you want from the other links shown. An excellent explanation of making crosses, dehybridizing by making selections, etc. Does that answer most of your questions? Carolyn Here is a link that might be useful: Online Tomato Vine

First, I tried to answer the question about the definition of OP using the same genetic terms that pennyrile used. So that's an attempt to defione an OP based on genetic issues alone. What Trudi posted is a definition based more on a functional basis. Here's what Trudi quoted from her source: (In addition to their long history of use, the heirloom vegetables that are routinely grown from seed are open-pollinated, meaning that they set seed "naturally," often aided by wind, rain, or pollinating insects, and can thus be renewed by sowing the seeds harvested from each generation of plants. Known also as standard or non-hybrid, open-pollinated varieties tend to be stable and true-breeding. They differ from F1 hybrids, which in usual practice result from deliberate crossing of two distinct, highly inbred parent lines. (The term "F1" to describe the hybrid offspring indicates the "first filial" generation, with respect to the parent lines.)) Trudi, I know that definition well and used to use it when asked, but a couple of things about it started bothering me. (are open-pollinated, meaning that they set seed "naturally," often aided by wind, rain, or pollinating insects, and can thus be renewed by sowing the seeds harvested from each generation of plants. Known also as standard or non-hybrid, open-pollinated varieties tend to be stable and true-breeding.) Possible Problem #1; if cross pollinated by pollinating insects a variety is no longer genetically stable, as in true brreding. Possible Problem #2; nothing was said about spontaneous mutations which can also alter varieties. Possible Problem #3. What about all the varieties that were bred by individuals and done so deliberately? Would then one still consider all of TOm Wagner's varieties such as Green Zebra, Green Grape, Elberta Girl and on and on, as OP's b'c they didn't come about via natural means? Same comment for all of the ones bred by joe Bratka such as Snow White, Super Snow White, Ghost, Rabbit, Marizol Purple, aka Marizol Bratka, and all the Sara thises and that's that he bred. Since they were bred are they to be considered OP? s And what about all the ones bred by Joe's father, such as Box Car Willie, Mule Team, Red Barn, Great Divide and Pasture. Are they OP's using the "natural" definition? And there are more examples. ( They differ from F1 hybrids, which in usual practice result from deliberate crossing of two distinct, highly inbred parent lines. (The term "F1" to describe the hybrid offspring indicates the "first filial" generation, with respect to the parent lines.)) The purpose here is to produce F1 seed for sale whereas the deliberate crosses made by Tom Wagner, Joe Bratka, his father, Tad Smith and others is not to produce F1 seed, rather, to dehybridize the F1's that they create to develop OP's from selections at the F2, F3, level, for instance. I guess what I'm saying is that I've know that functional definition of OP for a long time and that goes back to the late 80's. But in more recent years we do have lots of folks making their own crosses, so it seems maybe a bit problematic now to say that an OP can only arise by natural means, forgetting the comment about X pollination by insects. Just something to think about. Carolyn