I disagree with the assertion that soilless mixes won't break down organics. The microbes are present anywhere there is a food source. It is true that a soilless mix will lack worms and other soil critters that help in the process, but the process still occurs.

Having said that it seems like it would be counterproductive to use things like manures in a soilless mix where you want the soil to remain open in structure. The organics will break down, but into smaller and smaller particles.

The Neptune's Harvest is fine to use (pretty much any liquid organic), but keep in mind it's not an emulsion and isn't particularly high in N. I also use this product and generally regard it as a good way of providing all nutrients, major and minor to plants throughout the season, but do not use it exclusively.

Organic fertilizers do work to varying degrees in containers, but I would have to say that delivery of the nutrients can be very erratic and unreliable. The reason is that nutrient delivery depends on the organic molecules being broken down in the gut of micro-organisms, and micro-organism populations are boom/bust, varying widely in container culture.

Some of the things affecting the populations are container soil pH, moisture levels, nutrient levels, soil composition, compaction/aeration levels ..... Of particular importance is soil temperatures. When container temperatures rise too high, microbial populations diminish. Temps much under 55* will slow soil biotic activity substantially, reducing or halting delivery of nutrients.

I do include various formulations of fish emulsion in my nutrient program at certain times of the year, but I never rely on them, choosing chemical fertilizers instead. Chemical fertilizers are always immediately available for plant uptake & the results of your applications are much easier to quantify.

While giving a talk to a garden club last Thu night (on fertilizers and soils for containers, of all things) ;o) I related the story of Joe & Jim. Joe and Jim fertilized their lawns in early spring. Joe, with 27-3-3 chemical blend, and Jim with an appropriate (no burn) organic blend. Joe's grass greened up wonderfully, but Jim's did not, so he thought he should put on a little more - he did. A few weeks later, when Jim's grass was still looking rather anemic, he said, "I'll put one more application on & see if that helps." He did. A week later, when the first hot spell hit and there was a little rain, Jim's grass died. The soil had been too cold for the micro-organisms in Jim's lawn to digest the fertilizer he applied. Organic fertilizers are more apt to carry over than chemical fertilizers, so when the soil temperature and moisture level suddenly became conducive to increases in soil organism populations, a massive release of N occurred and plasmolysis (fertilizer burn) resulted. The same temperature flux could cause similar reaction in containers.

I agree that manures and compost, even worm castings, fine sand, topsoil . . . are all better left out of container soils because they destroy aeration and can quickly increase water retention beyond favorable levels either immediately or in the short term.

Al

Talk about a quick response. Thanks so much!!! I will have to change the way I look at how to amend my pottings soils. Maybe, just maybe I can begin to understand the importance of a well draining soiless mix.
Can you feel the sun getting warmer!!!!
Have a great day all. Sissy:-)

Al,
I agree with you on soiless mix and not adding >>>as you said...I agree that manures and compost, even worm castings, fine sand, topsoil should not be added.
But I can't understand something . When I transplanted all my plants last summer into different pots, Everytime I transplanted a houseplant that I used wormcastings in oringanly, the roots to those plants were massive and pure white. Very healthy roots, as compared to those that I used different amendments in my other soils such as compost and the like. So yesterday I called this company and asked what advantage their castings have in soiless mixes over all the other raw materials or composts. They said to me the castings encourage good airage and drainage in soil, add microbes, many different kinds of minor nutrients because these castings have already been broken down to allow plants to take up nutrients and do not compact soil over time. Funny thing is, the only plants I still have that are doing well today are the ones I used these castings in.
Strange right?
I went to their site and read of all the benefits these castings add to soiless mixes.
But if you disagree with this, then I will take your advice, since I am just a newbie at plant care and you have been around it for years..:-)

Sissie, worm castings aren't going to break down much because they are already like a clayish consistency when wet. I raised a few thousand worms for a couple years and made my own castings. It was kind of fun, but the resulting product really is like mud when wet.

Fine for the earth, but I wouldn't put it into a container myself although I know many do.

There was a test done years ago and I forget who did it or how reliable the results were, but they found that as long as the percentage of worm castings didn't go above 10% of the total mix the results were favorable and above that amount the results diminished and then worsened.

I think the moral of the story is that you can try some and see for yourself how it works for you. If your houseplants all did well with castings, try some outdoor plantings this year and see how it goes. Perhaps there is enough good stuff for the plants in the castings that any disadvantages are offset - to a point.

I think 10% is a good rule of thumb for the total volume of fine particles, too. I try to limit peat use to about 10-15% of soil volume & just stay away from those things that rob aeration & promote water retention beyond a minimal perched water table. If you start adding 10% play sand, 10% worm castings, 10% compost, 10% peat, 10% topsoil, 10% vermiculite to a soil, before long you'll be growing in something close to a pudding-like consistency.

What they told you about the castings promoting aeration and drainage is just not so, but will a handful of worm castings ruin your soil if you really want to use them? . . . "No, probably not." Could you supply the same nutrients with a chemical or organic micro-nutrient blend w/o compromising aeration and drainage, even minimally? . . . Yes

Said gently with a smile: Just because I won't use them doesn't mean that you can't. I'm not the boss & you don't get fired if you do. ;o) I just offer my thoughts and experiences for you to sort through and use as guidelines if you think they're helpful, and to reject if you think they're inappropriate for your style of growing. I think the science behind almost everything I say is pretty sound, but there are soo many variables when growing in containers that there is plenty of room for developing your own style, based on your own practical experience - even intuition when experience provides it in reliable form. ;o)

I always hope that those who read what I say about soils will ultimately take with them the idea that the soil is the foundation of every container planting & has effects that reach far beyond the obvious, but there is a snatch of lyrics from an old 70's song that might be appropriate: "... just take what you need and leave the rest ..." ;o)

Take care, Sissy.

Al

So if you put myccorhizal fungi in when planting will it break down the nutrients? Anita

What if you make worm casting tea? Or any type of compost tea? Would that help and not cause soil compaction.

So if you put myccorhizal fungi in when planting will it break down the nutrients? Anita

Unlikely. I really doubt it would take in a container. What the sellers of mycorrhizal fungi don't tell you is that the stuff isn't very hardy unless it's in it's prefered environment.

Most of the stuff for sale is originally from forested areas and requires an organic soil with stable moisture, pH and temperature and forms symbiotic relationships with the roots of various trees. Most of the species I have seen advertised are taken from conifer dominant forests. I have seen little evidence that the fungi are successful with the various flowers and veggies most of us grow and I would think the heat fluctuations, particularly on the high end, would outright kill it before it could do any good.

I tried a few vendors products including the Fungi Perfecti product line in raised beds that are 1/3rd compost and mixed/watered according to instructions several times throughout the growing season. At the end of the season I checked for any evidence of the fungi on the plant roots and found nothing.

I figure if it couldn't make it in a compost rich raised bed, it isn't going to make it in a container.

Your experience may vary, but if you use it do check for evidence it actually grew at the end of the season.

What if you make worm casting tea? Or any type of compost tea? Would that help and not cause soil compaction.

Whether it will help or not I can't say, but it isn't going to do any harm. It's just water with maybe a tiny amount of nutrients in it.

If the proponents of teas, particularly the aerated kind, are correct that zillions of organic matter munching bacteria will breed in the tea though, stop for a moment and consider if you really want more bacteria accelerating the breakdown of the organic portion of your potting mix.

I found out the hard way last year that Neptune Harvest just doesn't have enough fish to swim the swim thru a container. It is excellent in the garden but not containers with no microbes to break it down. The toms perked up a bit once I went over to a granular organic 4-6-2 end of June but still not what I wanted.

This year I will incorporate 10 to 20% compost in my what will be former soilless mix and use a worm tea to get the microbes working. The other alternative is chemical fert but I will take the weeds to stay organic. If I lived on the west coast I would be buying dr earth fert with microbes etc but I'm not paying the trans charge to get it up here.

There is a book out that says using 1/2peat 1/2compost and some organic fertilizers works in self watering containers. But you must completely change the soil each year.

I've reformed from being a completely organic gardening to using chemicals in containers. It was a painful transition, and I'm still holding out hope there is a decent & easy method for organics in containers, but I've not seen it yet.

Mycorrhizae do not break down nutrients, period. They strictly develop a beneficial relationship with the root systems of most kinds of plants, enhancing the uptake of soluble nutrients and water that is already available in the soil.

I have heard many arguments about this, and in fact was told by several of the nurseries in my area that what I planned was in fact, a recipe for disaster. I do use a combination of soil and soiless in my containers along with organic nutrients/micronutrients. I also build up microlife in my containers by adding my own compost and microrrhizae. I don't care much for what most folks say, I just have to do things my self and sort it out. I do use mostly 8-12 gallon nursery containers that I get for free. The roots of my plants harvested at the end of the season are all chained up with micro's, the plants flourish, the soil doesn't compact, does drain well, and the organic nutrients do take the plant through the entire season, and in a few test cases, several seasons. I also introduce earthworms and nightcrawlers into my mixes and this has helped as well. I don't think there is any one blanket statement that organics cannot be used in containers, that micro life won't thrive and benefit the plants in containers. I do think it depends on the medium, the preparation, AND the commitment made to making it all happen. My neighbors all use chemical blends in their containers, but my container plants simply blow them all away in both size, production, lack of insect infestation and lack of virus problems. Most of them are now begging me to help them develop a compost pile, and a program for their gardens, but I don't have the time to do anything more than throw them some compost and tell them to read about soil. Good luck to all. TiMo

DO YOU BRING YOUR CONTAINER PLANTS INDOORS FOR THE WINTER? AND IF SO, WHAT PART OF THE COUNTRY DO YOU LIVE IN? ARE THEY ALL OUTDOOR ALL SEASON ALL YEAR PLANTS? This could mean the difference between you having sucess and some of us that do not....:-). If I was growing plants in huge buckets and if they were meant to stay outdoors, lets say like blueberrie bushes. or roses, or perenials, I think I would try the same thing your doing. But citrus trees and palms that are hard to maintain, especially indoors all winter I can't see how this system works, or this type of soil. If you can share your key to sucess, please do. I would be interested..:-)
Thanks.... TAKE CARE

I have heard many arguments about this, and in fact was told by several of the nurseries in my area that what I planned was in fact, a recipe for disaster.

In most cases these professional growers know what they are talking about and they are correct that your mix will likely lead to disaster for many. I do use a combination of soil and soiless in my containers along with organic nutrients/micronutrients. I also build up microlife in my containers by adding my own compost and microrrhizae.

The microlife won't thrive in containers due to the fluctuations of temp and moisture. The mychorrizal fungi won't take. It really is that simple. One can pack a container full of all sorts of organic goodness and it isn't going to result in a fungi adapted to cool moist soils thriving or even surviving in mid summer in a container placed in full sun. It just isn't going to happen. As I offered on the organic forum, anyone who wants my mychorrizal fungi from Fungi Perfecti can have it for a couple bucks to cover the shipping. An unopened packet of seaweed extract is included as a bonus. This stuff simply did nothing for me after years of working with it. I wanted it to work, it just did nothing. Heck, just send me your address and you can have it for free, I will cover the shipping. I don't care much for what most folks say, I just have to do things my self and sort it out.

Good approach. I do use mostly 8-12 gallon nursery containers that I get for free. The roots of my plants harvested at the end of the season are all chained up with micro's, the plants flourish, the soil doesn't compact, does drain well, and the organic nutrients do take the plant through the entire season, and in a few test cases, several seasons.

What does 'chained up with micros' mean?

How can the soil not compact? You are using soil and manure and compost. It can't not compact. The soil is already of super fine size and the compost/manure will break into ever smaller particles. Even in a super coarse mix with a minor amount of organic matter it still compacts a bit over the season as the stuff breaks down into smaller particles and gets top watered. I also introduce earthworms and nightcrawlers into my mixes and this has helped as well.

No, it doesn't. You live in zone 5 and you do not have any native nightcrawlers capable of surviving the summer temps in a container. They require temps below 70F and preferably below 60F or they die off. That's just the biology of earthworms in zone 5 (and most other areas). They are temperate creatures and can't take heat. This is why when I raised worms for vermicompost I used species that would do well indoors without special treatment. Nightcrawlers need not apply as they do not survive. Anyone who has raised worms knows nightcrawlers won't survive in containers except for a few non native species. I don't think there is any one blanket statement that organics cannot be used in containers, that micro life won't thrive and benefit the plants in containers. I do think it depends on the medium, the preparation, AND the commitment made to making it all happen.

You still have the summer heat issues to contend with and for plantings that stay outside all winter you have the complete lack of soil organism activity in the cool/cold weather. My neighbors all use chemical blends in their containers, but my container plants simply blow them all away in both size, production, lack of insect infestation and lack of virus problems.

Not to be a smart alec, but do you have any pictures of your super plants? It isn't hard for me to believe you have plants you find do better than that of your neighbors since I have no idea how experienced those neighbors are, but this idea that there will be fewer insects or diseases is just silly. By what mechanism would an organic potting soil in a container result in insects not chomping on a tasty plant they favored? Heck, even with my organic, in ground growing I find the cucumber beetles really don't care how my beans, pumpkins or cucumbers are grown. They snack on them in containers, the ground, raised beds etc. They hone in on the scent and could care less how healthy the plants are. Well, they don't like dead plants ;-) Most of them are now begging me to help them develop a compost pile, and a program for their gardens, but I don't have the time to do anything more than throw them some compost and tell them to read about soil. Good luck to all. TiMo

Compost=good for the garden and at best pointless in containers. I am not saying plants can't be grown in a compost filled container, I am saying I don't see the point in it. It would serve a purpose in the ground, but in a container one may as well just fill it with peat moss. It isn't going to support the microbial/fungal life it would in the more even temperature and moisture of mulched ground. Earthworms aren't going to take the 90F days in full sun where the container heats to 100F+ They will cook. The disease fighting properties of compost aren't from the compost, but from the fungi and bacteria in it which aren't going to be as plentiful in a container.

I just don't see the point. Can it work? Yes, Been there done that. It simply doesn't work as well as a freer draining mix (and dirt, compost, manure in a pot do *not* drain well-period) with a more regular dose of nutrients plants can use right away.

I understand where you are coming from (I think) and it wasn't that long ago I could totally relate to what you are saying, but I really think you would enjoy trying a fast draining mix with a good synthetic fert in containers right next to your organic container and do a side by side comparison. I *know* what you are doing can work, particularly for water pigs like most veggies, but it isn't going to produce the optimal results that someone like you who obviously tinkers and experiments will be happy with once you have seen the difference.

If your current plants are doing much better than those of anyone you know that means you have the 'green thumb' and I can't even imagine the plants you could produce with a potting mix and fertilizer program better suited to containers.

Justaguy,,,, WOW
You have done it for me. Between you and Al, and all my failures through the years trying to due it with composts and poops and all kinds of expensive fungis, along with lots of money wasted on all the organics that I have been tinkering with to see if I can get SUPER plants, my curiosities of using something other than a good well draining soiless mix for my containers is over..LOL
No more crap in my HOME! Bettr off kept outside in the ground..And no more dead plants due to root rot!
In my insight, it seems to me that alot of us want to push our plants beyond there limits and get BIG results, sort of like steroids for body builders, but in the end, for most of us that try this, and all kinds of magic potions, end up killing them in the end.If your sucessful doing this, then I would have to say, these are the minority, but still loved by me. :-)
Thanks for your expertise and everyone elses for convincing me that SOILESS, along with a good synthetic fertilizer WILL work for my plants!!!Praise the lord, I FINALLY SEE THE LIGHT!!!:-)
Have a great weekend. I love this site and everyones experiences. Thanks

Hello all,
(newbie gardener here) Wanted to say THANK YOU for this thread. Although some of it went right over my head, what I did get from this discussion was perhaps a reason why my plants may not be happy in containers.

Since we had an organic garden as kids, I started my gardening career trying to use mostly those methods. In past years, I've planted in a mix of about 50/50 soilless+compost. For plants that I thought would like a lighter mix, I threw in a little perlite or vermiculite (whichever I had on hand). This has been for my tiny collection of house and patio plants. Though I have tried patio containers of tomatoes and peppers planted in compost+peat+perlite.

I fed with Terra Cycle liquid worm "juice". Indoors, the result has been that all goes well for about half the year. But late in the season, the soil looks dead and is very compacted. In my houseplants, I refresh it each Spring. But needless to say, the plants don't look at all happy through Winter. I'd like to improve that!!!

We just moved from zone 8 to zone 6A. This year I want to try EB's on my deck. But which veggies should this beginner try? Was thinking of some small, determinate tomatoes, sweet peppers, and mulling over pole beans and maybe squash or cukes. I'm also anxious to try growing fingerling potatoes in a container of straw+compost mix b/c I hear it's easy.

So what soil mix would you suggest for the houseplants. And what soil mix for the outdoor EB's? I have spent days reading here and at the EB forums and was wondering if I should use the moisture retaining crystals. I'm guessing the answer is NO from what was said above.

I was frankly nervous about using chemical fertilizers. I still don't understand why slow-release fertilizer is not a good idea for the EBs. Some gardeners posted that feeding with weak compost tea, worm "juice" or fish emulsion was fine in the EBs. But most say stick with the strip of fertilizer on top.

In a soilless mix, can someone suggest a brand of fertilizer to use or an NPK ratio that might work well on this year's veggie crop for this newbie? Thanks in advance for your time.

I'll let others that have had more experience fine tuning their soil/nutrient program in EBs answer those questions, but I can speak with some degree of confidence about soil/nutrients for houseplants and your other containers. Rather than repeat what has already been said, I'll offer you links to some threads that discuss these relationships in what may be more detail than you were hoping for, but then, you can always skip it if you prefer. ;o)

If you're confused about a fertilizer program for containers (other than EBs) and houseplants, you cannot go far wrong by choosing a 3:1:2 ratio fertilizer and expanding from there if you feel you can improve on the results. It is an excellent starting point and I feel, much better than a balanced 1:1:1 blend like 20-20-20 or 14-14-14. Miracle-Gro 12-4-8 liquid and 24-8-16 granular are 3:1:2 ratio fertilizers that are very easy to find. Alternately, I'm pretty excited after just having discovered availability of a fertilizer by Dyna-Gro. Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 is a 3:1:2 ratio blend that contains all the minor elements, and 2/3 of its N is from nonammoniacal sources. You'll probably need to look to the net for this fertilizer, though.

Read more about A Fertilizer Program for Containerized Plants here. Try this link for a long-running thread about Container soils, and if you're interested in learning about soils for houseplants, the thread entitled A Soil Discussion (for houseplants) covers it in some detail.

Al

Thanks for your reply and the great info, Al. I appreciate it!!! :o)

No need to thank me - I just hope it helps. If it does, that's thanks enough. ;o) Good luck, Brinn.

Al

Al, I'm sorry if I insulted you by questioning the info in this thread. I in no way meant to do that. It was hard for me to swallow the explanations about organics in containers, and I wanted the people whose opinions I trust to explain if it is true. Again, I apologize. For the record, I've stopped using organics in my containers. Anita

You know what, Anita ... after perusing the thread, I can't figure out what the heck you might be referring to, but I can tell you that I never felt at all insulted. About the only thing that gets to me is when people get unnecessarily personal when they get upset. You're fine - don't worry about anything. .... sure you have the right thread? ;o)

Al

I used a "soilless" that had rabbit manure, sheep manure, worm castings, perlite, lava sand, greensand, alfalfa meal, rock phosphate, plus some other organic goodies and it was by far the best stuff I have ever used. When I try to mix my own with earthworm castings, vermiculite, perlite, organic garden soil, guano, alfalfa and I added some dolomite limestone it was awful. I guess you either mix good stuff or you grow good stuff and there is no in between. A soilless is basically an organic hydroponic medium from what I have experienced. A completely hydroponic medium would not have anything except for absorbent materials like coco coir, perlite, vermiculite, rockwool cubes, etc. Hey whatever works for you! Nobody can tell you what you can or can't grow in if you already have with great results. The soilless I used with the poo and the wick as mentioned at first was fantastic! The plants thrived for three weeks without fertilization and when I did fertilize I used Fox Farm's organic liquid fertz. They loved it!

I finally gave up on organics for my containers this past Spring. It was tough.

My lawn and raised beds are 100% organic so it's hard to get used to using chemical ferts. But all my container plants are absolutely thriving in "Al's mix" + Foliage Pro so I don't plan on going back.

MercyG - you can't simply combine a list of ingredients you think should work together and expect them to be compatible, or even productive. Soils are in constant flux and how a soil behaves today is no clear indication of its reactions tomorrow. Of course, no one can tell you what you can or can't grow in, but what good is a soil that was once "fantastic" if you can't reproduce it?

What a soil is made FROM is very unimportant from the plant's perspective. That it is durable, holds the right amount of air:water, and nutrients, while providing adequate anchorage is key. It's usually when we start insisting that for one reason or another we have to eliminate wholesale lists of perfectly usable ingredients and limiting ourselves to ingredients that fit specific and often narrow categories that we start running into difficulty with our soil-building efforts.

Use the KISS approach and learn how components interact with each other in various combinations. You'll be happy for having made the effort and well on your way to being able to build consistently productive soils. Many of us can tell you outright how well various ingredients work in combination/ratio, or you can experiment on your own.

I will say though, that unless you have a lot more to offer that you didn't bring to the table, it might be a hard sell to convince many readers that a soil of mushroom gills & shed wormtail tips would be any better or productive than many of the very basic and simple soils most/many of us use here. ;o)

Good luck.

Al

You still following this, Sissy? ...... Mike?

I dunno I made a self watering container out of the large shallow Rubbermaid containers to propagate some wild strawberries indoors so I can plant them out next spring. All I used was 1/3 coarse sand, 1/3 potting mix, and 1/3 mostly finished compost and the plants are thriving. Within about 1 -1.5 months the original 6 plants were monstrous and about 10 runners were rooted and growing well. I have to cut runners every day or two just to keep them under control. Then again strawberries grow like weeds.