Hello everyone (ZM, Newbie, Arlan, Dave, HC, Brianne and all others from previous threads)!

ZM's goal of getting flowers with toothed petals is an interesting one.... the orange flower posted on June 1 was a good example, and as usual makes me want to select flowers with that trait, too. It definitely makes for a different flower. ZM, that June 1 flower does indeed seem to have many of the elements you are looking for.

HC, I hope you can get your picture online...I never saw it either!

Arlan, your photos are great! What very interesting designs and geometry you captured in those shots! Kind of a study in "floral embryology"--unfurling petals, sepal design and arrangement,chaffy scales.....

We have been having a wave of alternating sunny hot days and rains...lots of good conditions for getting zinnias started.

JG

Thanks everyone,

Since I started using photos to learn about my plants, the learning curve has been steep. I have learned that if in passing something catches my eye about a plant, even if I don't specifically know what it is, I often can determine it's uniqueness after studying close-up photographs of it and the surounding plants. I know I am a better observer in the garden because of it....and it is the observation of differences that really helps in hybridizing and visualizing potential in your plants.

"How were you able to take such close pictures? Do you have some kind of macro lens? "

ZM, I may have stated before that I use a Canon Powershot Pro1 which is a 5 year old upper end point and shoot digital camera. We are all pretty much familiar with the "Flower" setting on our cameras. I used this at first, but was not satisfied with the quality of the pictures. The depth of field was so narrow that only a small part of my subjects were in focus. They were also not perfectly in focus and most disintegrated quickly when enlarged. I was using the Auto exposure and Auto focus settings.

I scoured my manual and discovered a menu setting called "SuperMacro." This was only available with manual aperture settings. My camera has the ability for me to set the aperture and yet let the camera deterine the shutterspeed for proper exposure. I use this to my advantage by setting the aperture as high as I can to increase the depth of field and then use the flash to get enough light for proper exposure. With the flash, the shutter speed is very high. This coupled with the relatively very short duration of the light from the flash creates a picture that is usually exceptionally clear and in focus. I find that the standardized light source (flash) minimizes the variation we see in color capture under different light conditions. It is very accurate, except for some of the magentas and purples I often see in my Japanese Morning Glories and other flowers. I get better results with this set up in the shade or evening, as bright sunlight creates over exposed highlights.

In this scenario, I was then limited with how close I could get to the subject. The flash shadow caused by the lens creates an under exposed subject. My camera was able to focus much closer than I could be and still get enough light for proper exposure. Without purchasing a detached flash apparatus, I learned that I could maximize the zoom and back away from the subject far enough to get proper flash lighting and still have a "closer" image than with out using the zoom. These now are my default settings when I approach the garden to document my grow outs.

When I really want to get close, I have had limited success with using max zoom, approach very close and then use an impromptu reflector to bounce the flash onto the subject. I typically keep it very simple - a folded piece of typing paper or white card stock. The beauty of digital photography allows one to experiment easily with immediate feedback to learn the best combinations for the desired result.

In the interest of learning, here is tonight's photo of the Zowie flower. It grew quite a bit today and now is showing the beautiful bi-color development to the rays. I can only see this in this close up, not by bare eye in the garden. The rays are now also moving to the horizontal position...

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Here is the Whirligig bud with longer rays, still vertical. I'm intrigued by the green color of the bottom surface of the rays, wondering if this may be a normal thing for white?

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Arlan

HC,

About that picture -- I didn't see it either. A possible explanation is that you used "Preview Message" to verify that your message appeared with the picture, but then forgot to click on the "Submit Message" button. That mistake is fairly easy to do in this forum, because the Previewed message looks so much like the Submitted message. I've never known one of my forum messages to disappear after I actually submitted it, although I guess that would be possible if there were some kind of Server problem.

ZM

Arlan,

More impressive close-ups. Thanks for the explanation of your ingenious photo-taking techniques. I'm pretty sure that my wife's Kodak Z712 IS does not have a hidden "SuperMacro" mode. I have had very poor luck with its Manual mode. I am pretty much limited by the camera, although I can simulate a super closeup by cropping a small piece out of a "regular" photo. But that never looks very good for me. I guess I will muddle along in the Flower Mode until I get the budget to get a Nikon SLR with a macro lens.

ZM

Hi all,

I had the most major storm ever last night. It was the greatest t-storm I have ever seen. Apparently all of my other plants (carrots, radishes, cucumbers, marigolds, lettuce, and amaryllis) all were to the side or flattened a little bit. (The wind and rain even blew of a bloom from my marigolds) But my zinnias were all fine! Like it didn't even rain. There not that big yet too, and they held up against the weather. But because of so much rain, we got 4 new seedlings. At least I have something to be happy about!

Brianne

I think ZM is exactly right. I was so happy when it appeared on the preview, that I failed to submit.

Let's see if I can post a photo of a tricotyledon. What appears white is dew.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:5365}}

HC,

Wow! That one is definitely a 3Z, with the first true leaves being a triad, as well as three cotyledons. I was about to say "the first pair of true leaves", but corrected myself.

Let's hope it develops good flowers so that you can save lots of seeds from them. So far, my seeds saved from threesies have failed to produce any tricot seedlings, but hope springs eternal. Apparently getting a threesie strain of zinnias is not going to be easy.

ZM

HC,

That's a nice example! The symmetry is great with the two sets of threes. What were the parents of that one? Let us know the progress with that plant..

JG

Hi All, good to see the familiar. I did see some greeting type of messages before. Sorry I didn't say hi back. I just didn't want to add to the thread with just a hi, but "hi." :-)

Now a few questions. I am just starting my planting. If I get a packet like "Giant Cactus," will all of the flowers look about the same except perhaps color difference? Last year only two survived the snail attack, and they look the same. The reason I am asking is if they all the same, maybe I should just plant 2 or 3 instead of a row. Or will I get different looks from a cactus type?

The other ones are liliput and thumberlina. I got different type of liliputs last year (some had standard zinnia petals which I didn't like, but some looked nice).

Also Thumbelina mix. Even the packet picture show differnt types of petals. So what is thumbelina? Just a mixture?

The liliput and thumberlina are small. Are they diploids? Will they cross with the big ones?

Other than the above, I have also sown today Candy Cane, State Fair, Dahlia-Flower, Burpee's Whirligig, Giant Double, and Burpeeana Giants Mix (which looks like a mixture of different flower types too).

DM,

"The lilliput and thumbelina are small. Are they diploids? Will they cross with the big ones?"

Both the Lilliputs and Thumbelinas are diploids and, yes, they can cross with the big zinnias, with very interesting results, I might add.

"I have also sown today Candy Cane, State Fair, Dahlia-Flower, Burpee's Whirligig, Giant Double, and Burpeeana Giants Mix..."

That's a good assortment. The State Fair is a tetraploid. The rest are diploids. Burpee also has a strain of Tetras. I haven't done much with tetras, but I think the possibility exists to cross them with diploids and get triploids. Seedless watermelons are triploids. I think all of the commercial bananas are triploids.

Triploids are almost always sterile, like a Mule. But that can be a good thing. There is at least one triploid marigold, which doesn't need deadheading because it is sterile, and blooms floriferously, because none of its energy goes into seed making. If you happened to get a really unique triploid zinnia, there is the possibility of propagating it from cuttings. Or, who knows? Maybe tissue culture.

"If I get a packet like "Giant Cactus," will all of the flowers look about the same except perhaps color difference?"

Nominally they would look the same except for color differences, but in reality you will see other differences, some perhaps a bit subtle. Zinnias have a lot of natural variation. Some will be semi-double, and others will be very double and put out little, if any, pollen, making them suitable as female breeders.

As you spend more time looking at zinnias, you will start to notice odd little differences. Occasionally you will see stigmas with three arms, instead of the usual two. Florets usually have five or six arms, but sometimes you will see more. Some zinnias have thicker stems. The plant habit and branching form can vary. Leaf shape varies from short and rounded to rather long and narrow and sharp pointed. Some zinnias have a slight fragrance. Petal shapes vary a lot, as does the whole flower form. Some zinnia flowers are rather flat like daisies, while others are very deep, sometimes deeper than they are wide. The more zinnias you grow, the greater your chances are of finding something unusual. You can cross and save seeds from those unusual zinnia variations that interest you. As you continue that from generation to generation, the cumulative effect can be considerable.

ZM

Dave,

Last year, when I planted cactus zinnias, I actually did see quite a bit of variation in things like color (solid vs. two- or three- tone), and petals (some close together, some spaced apart; some very thin, some thicker; some wider, some narrower). My impression is that the more expensive the seeds are, the more uniform the plants tend to be (vendor tries harder to conform with advertised qualities). I saw a lot of variation within the Park "Bright Jewels" and HPS cactus zinnias I planted last year. The Burpeanas were more uniform, I thought.

ZM has really good comments (above, June 7)..

JG

Thanks, ZM and JG. I found that I had a little more space than I thought (that is, if I don't grow other flowers), so I am going to get Burpee's Big Tetra (I remember seeing the seed packets at HD or Lowes).

JG, I have the same feel about the price and variation thing. Sometimes they have specific look and color, and those are more expensive. Some of the cheaper ones (not only zinnia) sounds like they are just some mix or open-pollinated things, which is fine for me as I am interested in variation at this point.

Your 'Big Tetra' will be able to cross with your 'State Fair' as they are both tetraploids of Z. violacea.

HC, DM,

You are right, HC. Burpee's Big Tetra should be able to cross with State Fair, and vice versa. I have been ambivalent toward tetraploid zinnias, mainly for the reasons voiced by Boyle and Stimart in section 6.3 Polyploidy in Chapter 12 Zinnias of Flower Breeding and Genetics. In the last part of the first paragraph they say,

"Relative to diploids, tetraploid zinnias have larger flowers and thicker, stronger stems but also have poorer seed germination, less branching, delayed flowering and fewer capitula [blooms]. Difficulties also occur with producing autotetraploid lines with a uniform phenotype due to additional alleles affecting ligule [petal] color and plant habit."

I'm not positive what all of that means, but I don't like the idea of less branching, delayed flowering, and fewer blooms. I have noticed that all of my tetraploid State Fairs in the past have had characteristically spoon-shaped petals, not particularly to my liking. But you can create your own tetraploid zinnia strains by using colchicine, and I am wondering if tetraploid cactus flowered zinnias would still have the cactus flowered flower form or would take on the spoon-shaped-petals form. And I am also quite curious what tetraploid scabiosa flowered zinnias would look like. Colchicine is a dangerous poison that requires careful handling, but I am definitely considering creating some tetraploid zinnia strains myself.

In my opinion, a very attractive possibility for using tetraploid Z. violaceas (State Fair, Burpee's Tetras, or home-brew tetraploids) would be in back-crossing them (in both directions) with Z. marylandica (Profusions, Knee-High Profusions, Zaharas, Pinwheels, etc.) That statement is based on the last paragraph (on page 346) of 6.2 Interspecific Crosses in the aforementioned Boyle and Stimart Chapter 12 Zinnia.

I have already experienced poor germination with my Burpee's Tetra zinnias, but I have some more seed, and plan to plant them in a week or so.

ZM

Went to Lowes today and couldn't find "Big Tetra." Maybe it was HD. Will try that today.

When I bought "State Fair Mix" a while ago, it didn't have picture (I bought it from superseeds). Today I saw a packet with picture and it shows typical zinnia that I don't like. But it didn't show spoon-shaped petals. There are probably so many variations. I hope mine will give some spoon-shaped petals though as I kind of like them (sort of like chrysanthemums).

I read about colchicine in daylily books/sites. Won't do anything with it for this year as I am still new and any variety will be interesting for me this year.

DM,

"Spoon shaped" probably isn't an accurate description. The petals have basically the same silhouette as a California Giant petal, but the edges are bowed up slightly so that the petal can actually hold a little water, like a spoon can. Looking at the petal from above, it is slightly concave. I have a Burpee Big Tetra beginning to bloom now, and I will check its petals to see if they are shaped like the State Fairs.

ZM

The 3Z in the photo is a selfed F2 of 'Violet Queen'. It now has its third "pair" of three leaves. I've found another 3Z that is from a pack of 'Burpeeana Giants' with an origin of France. Its first two "pair" of leaves were plan of three, but the third contains only two.

ZM, thanks. I see what you mean now. And I got the Big Tetra from Home Depot today. The packet picture shows zinnias that I don't really like, but I will plant some anyway, maybe for the bigness and for trying to cross with other varieties.

HC, I got your email about ploidity of zinnia a while ago. Thanks! Sorry I didn't sent a reply because I only access my emails for the account is on another computer which is dying....

Good evening!

I just spent a good part of the day clearing out weeds. We've had a lot of rain in the last several days (about two inches) along with warm weather and everything is taking off! I have no flowers (just buds so far!)to show yet, but saw some interesting things today that I will share. I'm trying to be a better observer now, and for the first time, I noticed guttation on my zinnia leaves (water forced out through the leaves because of high root pressure resulting from all the water in the soil). All the leaves are edged with little drops of water, as shown below.

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One of my favorite zinnias last year had bright red scabious flowers.

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Now one of the offspring of that plant has pigment in its leaves, below. I don't know if I remember seeing this somewhat "pink" color in leaves before--usually, if present, it is a darker maroon.

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JG

JG, wow you are in zone 5 and have buds already. I really procrastinated too much again this. I just seeded mine last week.

I like the scabious flowers. Will probably order some from T&M tomorrow. I like that type of deep red too.

Guttation is new to me. I have seen it happen on my pothos but I never knew what it was. Now I know that I probably overwatered.

I really like your red Scabious flower, JG! I've got several blooming now, giving me my first opportunity to observe them first hand.

I'm also growing some seed I saved from 2006 of some State Fair plants I grew for the butterflies. One seed lot in particular is giving various shades of a violet cranberry color. The tetraploid spoon shaped petal influence mentioned by ZM previously is evident in varying degrees in the siblings. Here is a simple single that has attracted me due to its intense color.
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This is a sibling to the flower above and wears a nice bi-color look. It also sports a sort of double/fasciated center. The flower form is certainly not noteworthy, but I really like the colors I'm getting.
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Arlan

A gallery of this grow out is posted here:

Here is a link that might be useful: Violet Cranberry Series

JG,

Your zinnia guttation photo is fascinating. I think I may have seen that before, but not recently. Your leaves with the pink in them are amazing. Like you, I have seen a darker maroon before, but never anything like that pink at the base of the leaves. That is almost coleus like.

Arlan,

Those violet cranberry State Fair descendents have some unexpected color variations. I have never seen bicolors in tetraploid zinnias before. Most interesting. I am glad you saved seeds from those State Fairs.

DM,

That Burpee Big Tetra that I mentioned earlier has bloomed out now.

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The Burpee Big Tetra zinnia appears to have spoon shaped petals very similar to those of the State Fairs. I hope that tetraploid zinnias aren't somehow limited to that flower form. I don't expect that they are, although it appears that the commercially available tetraploid Z. violaceas currently are. Incidentally, the wires in that picture are part of a "zinnia cage".

ZM

Dave and ZM,

I have a lot of stages of zinnias growing now! And, I plan to start a small bed of Park 'Big Reds' when the seeds come in next week. Some of my plants have buds now, but many are only an inch or so high. I was very disappointed to check on some of them about a week ago, and found that something had chewed the seed leaves right off the stems! I noticed ants running around on the ground there. I don't know if those would be the type of ants that carry leaves to their nests underground, but it was very annoying! I don't like to use pesticides in the garden because of our bees, but this time, I just got out my can of House and Garden Raid and sprayed it on the ground there..these were about 30 of my July Bonnet seedlings, and this destruction had to stop. Anyway, the Raid has worked with one application. Hope not to have to use it again! If the ants come back, hopefully it will be when the plants are big and can better resist them.

Arlan, those shades of purple and corals in that State Fair offspring are really nice. The combination of colors would make you a pretty flower bed! (I wonder if you are going to try for a blue zinnia?) I had one Park 'Bright Jewels' cactus last year that had a similar color scheme:

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JG

Hi once again,

I was rethinking the possibilities of working with the tetraploids. Because of having so many more (possible)combinations of alleles with the double chromosome number, I would guess the potential would be there of getting combinations of characters/traits, etc. leading to phenotypes not yet seen in the diploids. Hmmm..you folks are way ahead of me...

JG

Arlan, love your pictures and web site and photography! Like yourself, I like the petals of the first one and bicolor effect of the second. But the first one seems to have some bicolor effect too?

ZM, the Big Tetra looks like what they show on the package. I wonder if Big Tetra and Giant Double are the same thing packaged by/for different companies. I don't know if they don't that in flower/seed industry.

JG, now I am glad I planted some State Fair too.

Has anyone grown Red Spider? I read somewhere (maybe on Garden Web) that many are disappointed by it. Oh well, I have a packet. Maybe I will still toss a few seeds somewhere.

I grew the 'Red Spider' for the first time last year. It is quite spindly for a zinnia. I decided I would like it best creeping up here and there in a bed of smaller yellow marigolds, but the marigolds I chose have impossibly tiny seed and I don't envision a bed materializing.

JG,

I am a bit skeptical about the potential of tetraploid zinnias, because there are so few of them in the marketplace. I think that State Fair, Burpee Big Tetras, and Old Mexico are it. My germination with Burpee Big Tetras was surprisingly low. Those seeds were a bit old, but I have had good germination with diploid zinnia seeds that were over five years old under room storage conditions, just stored in a drawer. The lower germination may be a deterrent for commercial tetraploid zinnias. But tetraploids do offer some new zinnia breeding opportunities, particularly the potential for crosses with Z. marylandicas.

I am sorry to hear that pests got a bunch of your July Bonnet seedlings. Dealing with pests and diseases takes on added importance when you are growing zinnias that have breeding significance. I have never experienced any leaf-cutting ants on my zinnias (I thought that leaf-cutting ants were confined to the Tropics), although aphid-herding ants have been an on-going problem. I would suspect slugs for eating seedling cotyledons in their entirety. Pillbugs or sowbugs will also attack zinnia seedlings under some conditions, although they usually leave skeletonized leaves, rather than eating them completely. Cutworms are a threat, but they leave the characteristic evidence of a felled seedling. In this picture taken a couple of days ago,

{{gwi:5397}}

there is evidence of thrips damage on at least two petals. I confirmed a visual sighting of the thrips. One of my projects today is to apply some insecticide to deal with both the thrips and the aphids that are affecting my breeder zinnias.

ZM

ZM,

I heard about the tropical ants, too, growing fungus on leaves underground. I think probably the ants I saw may simply use the leaves with twigs and other things to build their nest. The only reason I say that is that when the ants were gone, so was the damage, but it's entirely possible I destroyed or repelled a pest I never saw!

Possibly through a series of selections, a strain of tetraploid could be chosen that is fairly stable with regard to germination and other qualities. I don't know!
I have my hands full with other crosses this year, but may try to grow out some tetraploids next year. I saved seed from State Fair last year, but those zinnia seeds are mixed in with all the rest of unplanned (random) crosses.

That last zinnia you're showing is great--unusual color combinations! You have so many irons in the fire with all those new zinnias you've been showing us, I don't know how you keep up! Have you ever put any of your zinnias in a flower show?

Dave, I've grown Red Spider, and have shown pictures of it in past threads. When I grew it, I had it in with a number of other small zinnias, like the haageanas, peruvianas, angustifolias, Swizzles, and marylandicas. I grew them pretty densely, and together, they nearly made a ground cover!

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JG

DM,

I agree that the first flower seems to have a hint of bi-color as well. It seems to be masked by the darker color of the rest of the flower. I recall seeing this bi-color in flowers when I originally grew them, but paid little attention as my focus then was butterflies.

JG, you picked up on my thoughts as well. I do believe that having four copies of each gene instead of just two gives interesting possibilities to expression. I think I can see it in the colors of the State Fair grow-outs. I'm speculating as I have not read up on this yet, but thinking a flower can have one genome for orange and one for pink and produce a coral color. I imagine the raspberry or cranberry color could be produced this same way.

I realize that my depth of experience is very shallow here...as I've only had the opportunity to observe the results of commercial seed packet zinnias prior to this. Maybe the grow outs of diploid seed lots have this very graduated variation in color shades also?

ZM, you raise a good point about the lack of commercial tetraploid strains. The difficulties you quoted from Chapter 12 obviously heavily influence this. Difficulties often mean opportunities for hobbyists who do not have the profit motive/constraint. I have dahlia type petals on some of my State Fairs but not cactus type petals. I do have one small white with curly petals though....maybe there is hope! This discussion and the tetra color results this year have motivated me to order the Burpee Big Tetras today though.

Germination of my State Fairs have been great...they also produced the high number of albino/yellow seedlings.

One of my Burpee Giant Flowered plants has the exagerated spoon petals that were discussed a while ago. It is a semi-double which makes for an interesting look. I'll self it and see what comes...! Here is a mug shot. I can just imagine this with a scabious center! - Arlan

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Arlan,

That's one of the best looking spoon-petalled zinnias I have seen. Now I'm thinking there is justification for creating a spoon-petalled strain of zinnias. JG and I have both had some spoon-petalled specimens in the past. I have sort of "blown off" my spoon petalled examples, because they were singles or near singles. My single spoons went into my compost pile. But your specimen, with two rows of petals and a third row forming, is pretty darn attractive.

I think there is a spoon-petalled strain of chrysanthemums that look quite good, because their petals are longer and thinner with a really pronounced spoon on the end. But your spoon specimen suggests that zinnias can play that game, too. Definitely, save all the seeds you can from that specimen.

ZM

ZM,

I've caged the spoon petalled flower and have been selfing it. Now I will probably also share its pollen with a few scabiosa flowers.

Have you seen any visible difference between the plants of the Big Tetra and your diploid plants? I must say that I can not see a difference in leaf size, flower size or other physical characteristics between the State Fair descendants and the Violet Queen descendants growing right next to them. After learning that the State Fair strain was tetraploid, I was expecting deeper green, thicker leaves etc.

Arlan

HC,

I'm joining you and others in the 3Z Club...I found a Chippendale(haageana) that seems to be committed to a threes pattern..it's mulched lightly here with old daffodil leaves...we'll see what happens.

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Arlan, your spoon zinnia has such a good color..form is interesting, too! I think, too, that multiple layers of petals with the exagerated spoon shape would make a unique flower.

JG

DM, I'm glad you appreciated the email. I didn't want to scare you away with so much information, but I sure wanted you to feel welcome at this thread.

Is anyone growing seed saved from 'Swizzles'? I know they are hybrids and I was not interested in growing any F2's, but I used them extensively for outcrosses last year. I bought them as a potted plant and set them out in the garden, so I never had the opportunity to learn anything about their infancy. My experience this year is that the seedlings are tiny. This is true whether sprouting from seed saved from 'Swizzle' petals or seed saved from 'Violet Queen' pollinated by 'Swizzle'. I would love to hear anyone else's experiences with this variety.

HC,

The seedlings that have come up from commercially-offered Swizzle seeds looked like the others for me. I had several lots of seeds arising from Swizzle crosses that I planted this spring. I had a few seeds from a Red and White Swizzle (male)-Big Red (female) cross and some from a Red and White Swizzle (female)-Big Red (male) cross. I've gotten only three seedlings back from these crosses combined. We'll see what the offspring look like. I worry that they may be results of wind-pollination or self-pollination, but we'll see! The Big Reds are so big they may well be tetraploids, but the horticulturist at Park claimed he "didn't know." (!!!!!) Those seedlings coming up look comparable to the other seedlings I have. I also had seeds resulting from a Red and White Swizzle (male)-T&M Giant cactus (female) cross which I accidentally mixed in with seeds from another cross. I can only say that there are normal-sized seedlings coming up from that, but I don't know which cross each is coming from! And, I haven't looked into whether the T&M Giant Cactus are tetraploids.

JG

JG, how closely do you space your plants? It looks like there are a lot of zinnias there. I space mine about 6" apart when the recommendation is about 1ft. I figure I might cull some after seeing the flowers, but last year mine weren't very crowded. So maybe I can space them even closer. It looks like you probably just scatter and maybe rake them in?

Arlan, I like that type of spoon shape too.

HC, I wasn't scared by the email. I originally was interested in hybridizing daylilies and amaryllis, so I am familiar with plodity. Amaryllises take 3 years to bloom, so I lost interest. Daylilies take 1-2 years because my growing season is short, so I later felt that I would just go with quicker annuals.

I guess tetraploids has 2 sides of a sword. It gives us more possibilities but at the same time more difficult to fix once you find a plant that you like.

HC, this year I planted Swizzles directly in the garden and did not notice a difference in germination or initial seedling size from the rest of the seedlings. Their short growth habit made them more susceptible to "sand drowning" during some early thunderstorms though! My sandy soil moves with the rushing water....

This is the small white State Fair descendant that I mentioned earlier. It certainly contrasts with the ever present upward spoon cup/curl. I'll use it to broaden the selection base for future tetra flower types. The curl may be too tight and exagerated at this point for a pleasing flower, but I think a longer petal and higher petal count would certainly help. - Arlan
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Arlan,

"Have you seen any visible difference between the plants of the Big Tetra and your diploid plants? I must say that I can not see a difference in leaf size, flower size or other physical characteristics between the State Fair descendants and the Violet Queen descendants growing right next to them. After learning that the State Fair strain was tetraploid, I was expecting deeper green, thicker leaves etc."

I expected more differences, too. Actually, I think you need a microscope or, at least, a high-power magnifier to tell dependably whether a zinnia is diploid or tetraploid. Supposedly, for the tetraploids, the stomata in the leaves are fatter, the pollen grains are bigger, and the hairs on the stems and leaves are thicker. I'll take a closer look at my Burpee Big Tetra to see if I can spot any more clues. The only way I knew my Burpee Big Tetra was a tetraploid was from the label that I placed in its seedling pot when I planted it. Its petal shape was the only overt characteristic, and there is growing evidence that we can't depend on petal shape as a reliable identifier.

ZM

HC,

"Is anyone growing seed saved from 'Swizzles'? I know they are hybrids and I was not interested in growing any F2's, but I used them extensively for outcrosses last year."

Even though you weren't interested in F2s as such from your F1 Swizzles, their pollen grains and egg cells were F2 recombinants, which you might think of as virtual F2s. You can think of them as "virtual" because those pollen grains and egg cells may have been carrying some odd F2 recombinations that you couldn't see and which will only indirectly show up in the hybrids that you cross pollinated. So you can't rule out some unpredictable results in your outcrosses from Swizzle. I don't know if there is any genetic factor in Swizzles that would make their seeds or seedlings "tiny". That could be at least partly environmental or nutritional.

ZM

Dave,

Regarding spacing of zinnias...probably good horticultural practice would say to let plants grow one foot apart. That gives each plant lots of space to branch out as well as good access to sun, soil, and water to give optimum blooms. Definitely for landscaping, too, flowers look better when given adequate space.

But I want to get as many plants as I can, and often many of mine are as close as one inch apart in a row (sometimes closer!). When I have lots of seeds from a batch, I grab a handful, and sprinkle them in a shallow trench along the row, and then just rake them over lightly as you said. Rows are usually about 2 feet or more apart. Once the plants mature, that is not so obvious when looking at the garden! I am fortunate in that I have very good soil and lots of access to sun in the gardens. In most cases, rain is adequate, and when there are dry periods, I guess I am fortunate in that zinnias really can do well in dry conditions! My offspring from planned crosses are given about 5-6 inches apart in a row. The microgarden I had last year had rows spaced about eight inches apart, but once the plants got taller (some of them became lanky like the peruvianas,
tenuifolias, and in some cases, haageanas) it truly became jungle-like.

JG

Hello everyone!

We have just had an extremely hot, wet week in Indiana. Plants are growing quickly. Swizzles and scabious zinnias are beginning to bloom.. I have six plants coming from seeds of one of the red scabious flowers that I allowed to randomly cross with other zinnias in the garden. I am absolutely amazed at the diversity of the offspring of that plant! The red scabious zinnia that I had last year never produced pollen, so I had to rely strictly on outcrossing to get F1's. Once the sixth plant blooms from the one flower's offspring, I will post photos.

JG

Hi all,

Our weather is also hot and wet, with several recent storms that had high winds. As this picture shows,

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my outside zinnias aren't fairing very well. The high winds have caused some damage despite the zinnia cages. The soil here is dark and heavy, and saturated with water, so that my zinnia roots get very little oxygen. I guess I need to do foliage feeding to improve their nutrition. It will be a challenge growing zinnias well outside in an environment that seems better suited to growing rice. I am starting a third generation inside with the hope that the outside conditions will improve by the time they are ready to set out.

ZM

Hey all,

I too have been hit with the heat! Triple digits at 2 PM creates a challenge for me with the sandy soil I have. If I can keep water to them, my zinnias are doing quite well. This snapshot shows the typically unachieving flowers of the State Fair grow out kept for the color display. The row to the right is Violet Queen descendancy.
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JG, looking forward to seeing the diversity of flowers of your red scabiosa seed.

ZM, your golden scabiosa looks like a survivor!

Arlan

The heat has been killer here, but with NO rain. The grass has died back such that I have found 8 volunteers that I would have mowed over had this not occurred. They are not exactly where I grew zinnias last year (and had expected to find volunteers), but are a few feet away. They seem to thrive in the heat.
I was aware of some volunteers in my mustard, bok choi garden, but they too have yielded a surprise. Two of them became my first '09 blooms this morning. After posting a complaint about the seed I saved from 'Swizzles' (only one has survived), it turns out one of these bloomers is from a 'Swizzle'. It is extremely squatty and convoluted and its bud was hidden. The only shorty I let make seed was the 'Swizzle' and it is in exactly the same spot as last year's. It is a single pink, so I can't say if it is an F1 or one of my crosses with 'Violet Queen'. My wish was for a taller bicolor.

Hi all,

It is hotter today than yesterday. Today's high is predicted to be 96 and it is already 92 as I type this. Tomorrow's high is predicted at 99 with a Heat Index near 110. Arlan, I wish I had your sandy soil. This gummy stuff here is better suited for making durable mud pies or possibly ceramic pots, rather than for growing plants. I noticed that all the oak trees here are about half the height of those in Maine, although they are as old or older. I think they are just stunted by the oxygen depleted soil.

My outside zinnias are struggling, although the dappled shade from all the trees may be a blessing in disguise in this coming summer heat. The rusted appearance of the concrete re-mesh wire in the zinnia cages is normal. The cages last a long time, despite being covered by a "protective" coat of rust.

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That little scabiosa hybrid recombinant is rather ordinary. It's not really partially white. That is just overexposure from dappled sunlight. As they say, what we need now is a blessing that is not in disguise. (grin)

ZM

Hello!

ZM, your scabiosas are nice, despite being in a paddy. Are they home-bred or from a commercial source?

Arlan, your zinnias are pretty, too. You'll never tire of going out and inspecting each plant for different characteristics...meanwhile, look at all the color!

HC, wish I could get volunteers as you do! I don't believe I've ever had them!

Well, I planted a small bed of Big Reds two days ago outside, and with the rain and high temps, they have already germinated. My plants are growing with the near perfect conditions for germination, but like ZM, I see various types of damage. I have brown spots on leaves and petals of the more mature plants,I'm sure that are small infections or burnt spots resulting from all the moisture on the plants.

MY 3Z Chippendale is indeed committed to the threes pattern. The 7th layer of 3Z true leaves is ready to emerge. Interestingly, the side branches coming from the nodes have stems with two-leaved nodes, but the net result is that there is 1/3 more branching from the main stem.

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Has anyone tried the Park Candy Mix scabiosas? I have, and although it seems there are the usual number of "compost-pile" types, the ones that manage to be scabious have well-formed florets in the center as in the one below:

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More later..

JG

JG,

My scabiosas are "home bred". I figure that I have a better chance of getting the scabiosa flower form from seeds saved from a known scabiosa seedhead than from a field-grown mix of scabiosa flowered zinnias. I do have some Park's Candy Mix seeds that I intend to plant when I have more growing space. The florets on your Candy Mix do have a nice big look. By repeated backcrossing of scabiosa hybrids to giant zinnias, I hope eventually to get a breakthrough to some really giant florets. So far, my increases in floret size have been rather gradual, although I have made some progress in that direction.

Your 3Z Chippendale is quite interesting with its persistence in the plan-of-three growth. I hope you will save a lot of seeds from it in an attempt to get some 3Z progeny. So far, all of my progeny from 3Z plants have failed to retain the plant form. It's a puzzle. I have on one occasion gotten a 3Z side branch on a 3Z plant. So that's not impossible. Maybe I am being unrealistically optimistic, but I think it is possible to have a 100% 3Z zinnia plant. On the other hand, I don't have good evidence that the plan-of-three is even inherited.

Some of my "third wave" seedlings are big enough to repot now, so I guess I will be doing that tomorrow. My outdoor garden is such a bust that I am continuing the indoor project as a kind of backup.

ZM

Hi!

Let me show you what happened when I allowed the below flower, a red scabious zinnia, cross randomly with other zinnias in the garden (we will presume pollination carried out by insects).

The mother flower, or at least, one similar example from the same plant, shown below:

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The offspring (shown at different scale):

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This one above has full, orange scabious flowers, about 1 1/2 inches across.

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This one above not a good flower at all, but it may be damaged by the weather conditions we've had, too. Not like it's mother....

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This flower above looks like it may have had a whirligig dad...has a good supply of disc flowers.

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This above flower seems to me to be most like the mother flower, but the florets are a shorter red, and there are guard petals (damaged, I think) of a shade of fuscia.
This is the only plant that has inherited the relatively narrower leaves of its maternal parent, too.

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The above flower seems uncertain of what to do--funny florets in the center, somewhat curly petals here and there, but keeping the red color for the most part.

Last, but not least:

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This might be an interesting one. Daisy-like, some of the central florets turning brown due to too much rain, and more to come!

I couldn't believe what sorts of flowers came from that red scabious mother! It's kind as if anything goes when there are random crosses. I have four or five plants that resulted from planned crosses with the red scabious and a red cactus. Will see what happens.... But I sure would like to get another red scabious like the one I had last summer....

ZM, when you said "recombinant" flower I thought you probably meant home-bred, but I asked anyway. I think what you're doing is the right thing. I am going to eliminate those plants that produce mediocre flowers to get better lines going here. For now, though, I am nipping off the undesirable first flowers without destroying the plants. I think some ugly flowers may be resulting from poor environmental conditions!

I wonder if we should move to Part 11? ZM?

JG

JG, I'm with you on pinching the first undesirables without destroying the plants until they can "clear their throats". I spoke too quickly yesterday about my 'Swizzle' cross. It is a semi semi double and is pink violet today, so probably the 6 ft 'Violet Queen' is the papa of this 5 inch plant.

Thanks to everyone for sharing! There are so many cool things to read/view today. I had thought that red might be one of the more stable zinnia colors, but when I saw the yellow offspring ......
I'll have to go out and count how many layers of three I got on my 3Z's, but one's newest layer consists of one normal leaf and one fused leaf.
I have another oddball that I hope to photograph. It began branching immediately after emerging from the ground.

I really like the photo of the Parks 'Candy Mix'.

Hi all,

I think the Candy Mix may offer some interesting traits. Here are three photos taken today:

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I kind of like the flower on the right. It has overlapping layers of toothy petals which gives an interesting effect. The color is nice, too.

JG

JG,

Those three examples of Candy Mix are all quite good. The one on the right looks like it is going to develop into what I refer to as a Marigold Flowered zinnia, if it keeps putting out those toothy petals. Good breeder stuff there.

Your progeny from last year's good red scabiosa specimen are quite interesting. You must get a lot of free bee cross pollination in your zinnia patch.

" For now, though, I am nipping off the undesirable first flowers without destroying the plants. I think some ugly flowers may be resulting from poor environmental conditions! "

I think that is a good idea. Environmental conditions can cause a zinnia to make a poor first impression. I am putting some of my so-so specimens out in the garden for the butterflies. When I need the space, I will replace them.

"I wonder if we should move to Part 11? ZM?"

Agreed. See you all over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 11.

ZM