Navigation Real Milk Articles Google The Crime Against Raw Milk by Alton Eliason Never in the annals of health and nutrition has there been a food so maligned, lied about and conspired against as raw milk. Once revered the world over as the most perfect of all foods, its demise was planned in well organized steps to create today's store-shelf milk, a virtually lifeless product whose only comparison to the original is its color. Although each new processing procedure has been espoused as an improvement in the nutritional quality and the safety of milk, these steps actually led to the destruction of these properties on the alter of corporate greed. In its present store-shelf form, milk is not only empty of most of its nutritional value, but can actually cause many health problems. As a youth just out of high school in 1934, my employment with a local dairy gave me a "ringside seat," so to speak, to observe the birth of these nefarious moves. It is necessary to relate the history of Knudsen's dairy to properly describe the diametrical opposites in the nutritional values demanded then and those found in store milk today. Only raw milk today provides those same qualities. John Knudsen, a neighbor, operated a small dairy farm of Guernsey cows with the help of Peter, one of this three sons. Peter delivered the raw milk directly to a large local dairy and requested they send someone out to discuss this with him. When he was offered two cents a quart for his milk he rose in ire and said, "You'll regret the day you ever said two cents a quart to me!" At this time, Peter's twin, Christian, manager of a dress factory on the West Coast and Daniel, a mason in nearby Hartford, lost their jobs as a result of the 1929 stock market crash and returned home. John proposed his sons go into the dairy business using the farm as the nucleus, which they did. Their competitors predicted their demise within a year. Their success vividly demonstrates the importance of a cream-rich product in those days and the part creamline played in the milk industry. So important was the butterfat content that some dairies named themselves "Creamline Dairy." Naturally, Guernseys and Jerseys, whose milk contains the greatest butterfat content, were the most popular breed of cows. To accentuate the cream content further, Knudsen's, among others, had orange lettering on the glass bottles to give the cream an even richer color. To further demonstrate how important the cream was, some dairies even had bottles with a narrowing of the neck a few inches down from the top and provided a special spoon that could be placed inside the bottle at the constriction allowing one to pour off the cream to use for coffee and the multitude of other uses of cream in those days. Some even saved it until they had a sufficient quantity to make their own butter. To further magnify the importance of the cream content of milk, I will describe the sales method utilized by Knudsen's that boosted their sales and allowed them to add six trucks to their fleet in one year. Virtually all milk was delivered directly to homes during the early morning hours in those days and left on the back porch or sometimes left in an insulated box on the porch to keep it cold until retrieved by the customer. Remember, this occurred in the days before refrigeration. The milk cases were heavily iced to keep the milk cold during warm weather. The few stores having ice boxes or the new refrigerated units usually carried just a few quarts of milk and small bottles of cream for local residents. It was our sales practice to arrange our route so as to follow our competitor and leave a quart sample of our milk next to his. On returning later in the morning we would introduce ourselves and ask the lady of the house if she had received our sample and would she bring out her regular supplier's bottle so we could demonstrate the greater cream content of our product. Since most farmers kept some Holsteins mixed with their Guernseys and Jerseys, to take advantage of the Holstein cow's greater production, few could match the cream content of the strictly Guernsey and Jersey herds. With Knudsen's greater creamline, it was seldom we left without a new customer. It was at this time that I witnessed the first step toward the eventual demise of milk as we had known it. While pasteurized milk was rapidly replacing raw there were still a considerable number of people demanding raw milk. It was the practice in those days for the more affluent to own or rent cottages at the shore for the summer in Connecticut. With the children home from school and mother not needing to get up early to get the children off, many took this opportunity to sleep late into the day. Few women worked outside the home in those days. This created a problem for the dairies, what with the milk standing out in the hot summer sun. While the raw milk rarely went sour, the heat did cause the cream to rise thickly to the top of the bottle and some assumed the milk was sour and called to complain. While turning the bottle upside down a few times would solve the problem, it was usually thought better to replace the bottle rather than risk losing a customer. One summer morning, my boss, Chris, asked me to accompany him on such a journey to keep him company. On the trip he remarked that we weren't going to be doing this much longer. I asked him what he meant. He responded, "We're going to get raw milk outlawed." "How are you going to do that?" I asked. "Oh we've got some doctors that are going to testify that raw milk causes diseases," he responded. "But that isn't true," I pointed out. "We don't give a damn whether it's true or not, just so long as we can get these lazy women off our neck," he said. Now, this wasn't the first assault leading to the demise of milk. Pasteurization had been going on for several years and was making headway, but was vigilantly being fought against, even by farmers, until they were won over with the assertion that with pasteurization they didn't have to be so particular about keeping their barns clean, that pasteurization would take care of whatever germs might enter the milk. Most people believe pasteurization was developed to prolong the freshness of milk and protect the consumer from possible disease-carrying bacteria. The truth is, Louis Pasteur developed pasteurization to overcome the fermenting problem that was being experienced by French wine-makers. In fact, it is reported that Pasteur sadly lamented, "What are they doing to my wonderful food?" when informed that pasteurization was being used for milk. Pasteurization originally consisted of heating milk to 140 degrees for 30 seconds. Since this proved insufficient to maintain the shelf life or should I say, shelf-lifelessness of milk, it was next raised to 167 degrees for 15 seconds. Even this proved insufficient to satisfy the corporate dairies, so now they heat it to 281 degrees for 2 seconds and call it ultra-pasteurization, as though they had achieved the ultimate protection for the consumer. Every second counts when your object is making money, not giving a damn about the consumer. Now milk is so lifeless it can stand for months with no fear that it will go rancid. Pasteurized milk cannot souror for use of a more gentle termclabber. Pasteurized milk turns rancid with age to a foul, sickening odor, all the good bacteria having been destroyed. Clabbered milk is comparable to yogurt in flavor and was my father's favorite desert for all his life. Every evening meal was followed with a little cinnamon and brown sugar on a bowl of clabbered milk and Swedish hardtack covered with homemade butter. Some amusing things took place in those early days that I will repeat, just to keep the history straight. There was both Grade "A" and Grade "B" milk in those days. People just assumed that Grade "A" was of better quality, because it cost 17 cents a quart as against 14 cents for "B". Not so. In Connecticut at that time, only farmers whose barns received a 98 percent or better grade by the state inspector, because they had better plumbing, etc., could be classified as Grade "A". It had nothing to do with the actual cream content or the ingredients at all. Since all farms providing Knudsen's milk, having long ago surpassed the ability to provide all their needs from their own farm, were rated Grade "A". Those buying the "A" were paying three cents more for the same product as those getting the "B". At a sales manager's meeting the staff's jester pointed out the absurdity of this "grading system." When the question came up about the difference between Grade "A" and Grade "B" he pointed out the difference was "three cents," forcing a laugh from the rest of us, but the comment didn't sit well with the manager. Another fallacy commonly believed is that milk is deficient in vitamin D. It is virtually impossible to buy a quart of whole milk that does not have vitamin D added to it. When the adding of D to milk became necessary to be competitive, Knudsen's started providing their farmers with Brewer's yeast or some similar product in edible form to feed to their cows which enriched the milk with vitamin D naturally. They called it metabolized vitamin D which was certainly a more natural method to enrich the milk, but they soon decided it was cheaper and simpler to add the synthetic form of vitamin D to the milk. I left Knudsen's after a few years, but kept aware of the exploitation of milk for the benefit of the distributor. In a conversation with Chris in the early forties, he alerted me to the wonderful advancement of the dairy with the invention of homogenization. The corporate giants of which Knudsen's was now a part, would no longer fight for customers over creamline. Now they could cut the butterfat contents to the legally required 3.5 percent needed to be called whole milk since butterfat now stayed in suspension and it was virtually impossible for the consumer to see or know how much cream they were really getting. Corporations could sell the extra cream at a much greater profit or use it for even greater financial returns in making ice cream. True to form, Knudsen's soon opened a large ice cream parlor on the site of the original farm that became a local sensation for the quality of its products. By now home delivery of milk was gradually being discontinued, partly because urban supermarkets were replacing the delivery system. Homogenization has had shattering effects on milk consumption. With the removal of cream, milk has become tasteless. The cereal industry has suffered irreparably since milk no longer contributes to the taste of cereal. Despite the addition of enormous quantities of sugar and flavoring of every description, people, and children in particular, are not eating cereal as they have in the past. Dairies conformed to the fat-free rage by reducing the fat content even further. But people are not drinking the watered down versions. Of course, the push to increase milk consumption for the treatment of osteoporosis is a farce because the enzymes and vitamins in the missing cream are needed to assimilate the calcium. In the late 1930s, the corporate powers began the most vicious, unjust wave of adverse publicity ever seen in the health field. They stooped to the lowest denominators to not only prevent the sale of raw milk in public places, but even to stop its sale from the farm. In this effort they hired writers to make the very thought of drinking raw milk seem a lapse in one's mentality. Most doctors have been so brainwashed and indoctrinated with medical school texts that, to this day, if a patient admits that he drinks raw milk, his doctor will insist on knowing where he purchases it. The physician can then report it to the health department. He will often, without further investigation, determine milk as the cause of whatever condition the patient is complaining. Preposterous? No, this scenario was actually experienced by a friend of mine who suffered the same reaction from several doctors she visited. Some even told her not to come back if she continued to drink raw milk. Of course, her affliction had no bearing on her milk drinking. So pervasive has this malicious propaganda become that some farmers even buy pasteurized milk from the very dairy that receives their raw milk! My usual response to such actions is that if their milk is so bad, I certainly would not drink it either. A friend has to actually remove the bottle of raw milk from her table when some members of her family visitso great is their fear of even being in its presence. This is proof once again that a lie told often becomes believed. For years since this vicious, unjust destruction of milk began, such publications as The Rural New Yorker, at that time the leading farm publication in the Northeast, tried valiantly to defend raw milk and expose the fallacy of pasteurization and the fallacy that pasteurization improves the nutritional value of milk by making it safer to consume. To address the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of malicious, untrue stories often so asinine as to strain the intelligence of the reader, is impossible in an article of this length. But they are stories that exaggerate or simply invent afflictions from drinking raw milk. I will, however, relate a typical tale, for that is exactly what is was, a figment of the author's imagination presented as fact. Something like War of the Worlds, but this happened in Crossroads, USA. Dr. Harold Harris had published an article in the May 1945 issue of Coronet Magazine, a popular publication of the time. In it he states that what happened at Crossroads, USA, which "lies about 25 miles from a big city," could happen in your town. In detail, he describes the epidemic of undulant fever that infected 25 percent of the population and killed one in four. Case histories were then presented to show how debilitating the disease could be. The truth is there was and is no Crossroads. This never happened in any town in the USA. It was simply a figment of the author's imagination. When cornered, Dr. Harris squirmed out of his dilemma by saying he just presented it as a possibility. This was typical of propaganda widely circulated for many years by news media most likely fearful of losing the substantial revenue reaped from advertising and other financial support of these large dairy corporations. Undulant fever and tuberculosis were two favorite diseases falsely attributed to drinking raw milk. Undulant fever is not a common disease in the United States and cannot be transmitted by raw milk. Cows cannot pass their germ in their milk, or the germ of any disease, with the possible exception of mastitis, which may possibly be passed to a nursing mother, although I haven't been able to find definite proof in any such occurrence in my research. To prove how long these tales can be carried, just yesterday I received a letter from a person of far greater intelligence than the average who said that years ago he knew a fellow who knew a fellow who years ago got undulant fever from drinking raw milk. The tale is old stuff, but it is the memory that hangs on. Regarding the carrying of tuberculosis in milk, I experienced the following firsthand in the early 1930s, when the government instituted the testing of all cows for TB. The government inspector came and injected the serum under the upper tail of our three Guernseys and true to his promise, returned a week or ten days later and determined by the bump at the site of the injection that our cows did indeed have TB. I remember my father's worry over whether or not we could contract TB from drinking the milk of our infected cows. The inspector emphatically said, "Mr. Eliason, a cow can drop dead from TB while you are milking it and the milk will still be pure. Mother Nature always protects its offspring." The opponents of raw milk have stooped to malicious misrepresentation of the facts and deliberate deception. This fact was brought home when I was given a copy of a pamphlet entitled, "Cancer and Raw Milk." One of the first items to catch my eye was a short article stating that there were eight members of a certain family selling raw milk in the town where I buy my milk. There has been no others selling raw milk there for many years. On questioning my friends, they expressed surprise as they had never been questioned or investigated in this regard. They assumed it had arisen from the timemany years agowhen their herd was stricken with bovine lymphoma. This was not restricted to them, but had struck many farms in Connecticut. The cows didn't seem to be affected, but the calves were succumbing to it. They were referred to the University of Pennsylvania for help. The University carried on extensive research, even to the extent of using an airplane to fly out and pick up calves as soon as they were born to determine if cancer was being passed on by the mothers. All tests exonerated the mothers and the plague eventually died out on its own. What was most troubling was that there were only four cases of death from cancer, not eight and none of the deaths could be attributed to the illness in animals. The farm owner smoked continuously, never being without a cigarette in his mouth and never drank any milk, even in his coffee. Two other family members, including an aunt who lived some distance away and didn't get milk from them. John Olson was another victim of cancer who was a school mate of mine and another was a distant relative to the farmer who had made a career of the military. This man hadn't been home in many years and died in Texas from leukemia. It is such nefarious publications as this that snare otherwise intelligent people into forming their conclusions. Not only is such publicity downright incorrect, it is maliciously circulated to prevent honest people from enjoying the greatest food on earth. An example of how the "powers that be" never give up trying to dictate our lives was dramatically displayed when in 1994 the Connecticut Health Department presented a bill to the Connecticut Legislature that would have grandfathered remaining dairy farms selling raw milk to the public by allowing them to continue selling raw milk, but preventing any further sale, even by the farmer's children, after his death. This supposedly was prompted by a report that TB had been found in two cows in New York State. I was pleasantly surprised by the chilly reception the bill received from the hearing committee. Two members held up containers of raw milk they had in their lunch pack. At that time the hormone BGH had been introduced and some farmers were already injecting it into their cows to increase their milk production. It was assumed the opposition to this procedure might foment a movement to seek hormone-free milk in the form of raw milk, thus cutting into the profits of the large corporate milk processors. Now, let us address some of the wonders of raw milk. Bernard MacFadden, the father of physical culture, tells in his book, The Miracle of Milk, of a man who as a small child drank some lye that burned his esophagus so severely that he was unable to eat even the smallest particle of food. He not only lived his entire life on raw milk alone, but married, had children and was gainfully employed. Dr. Weir Mitchell in his book, Fat and Blood, relates that one of his diabetic patients lived for 15 years on milk alone and carried on a large and prosperous business. Dr. Taylor in Britain, cured himself of epilepsy by living exclusively on milk for 17 years. I have personally known and have friends who lived on raw milk diets for weeks as part of their health programs. In the 1940s, milk spas were popular health resorts devoted to curing physical problems. The clientele at these spas lived exclusively on raw milk for days at a time as a body purification process. Milk baths were a substantial part of the program. So much respect and confidence was placed in the purity of milk that seldom a week went by in those days that some famous person, usually a movie actress, was portrayed in the news media taking a milk bath, attributing her velvety skin and luscious beauty to the milk, of course. Now, I am well aware of the extent movie producers will go to promote their star and I am not about to defend the veracity of their claim, but it certainly explodes the argument that the very presence of raw milk was a threat to one's well-being. Often during my talks on milk, many people attend who relate the wonderful health they have experienced since adding raw milk to their diet. At a recent talk a young man related how he suffered from allergies that defied all the efforts of the medical world to cure. But on attaining a job on a dairy farm where he drank large quantities of raw milk, his allergies are virtually gone. As for myself, I am 83 years old, have drank at least two quarts, and usually a gallon, of raw milk a day virtually from birth. My blood pressure is 120-130 over 60-70 which prompts every physician to report I have the vital signs of a 20-year-old. I physically work hard every day. I have suffered a lifetime of severe heartburn as the result of having been born without the esophageal valve, which regulates the entry of food into the stomach. The enterologists reluctantly credits my milk consumption for preventing cancer of the esophagus, a condition virtually certain to occur in everyone so afflicted. I had an operation in November 1998, in which the stomach is wrapped around the bottom of the esophagus, forming a valve. The operation is very successful and I have not experienced a single episode of heartburn since the operation. I relate this fact for any readers who suffer from acid-reflux and I relate the truth about raw milk for anyone suffering from a health problem. A Campaign for Real Milk is a project of The Weston A. Price Foundation PMB 106-380, 4200 Wisconsin Ave, NW, Washington DC 20016 Phone: (202) 363-4394 : Fax: (202) 363-4396 : Web: www.westonaprice.org General Information/Membership/Brochures: info@westonaprice.org Local Chapters and Chapter Leaders: chapters@westonaprice.org Website: webmaster@realmilk.com

Well, here's another one from the internet. I first heard of it some 10 years ago. Hotel Soap HOTEL SOAP OPERA Attached is actual correspondence which occurred between a London hotel's staff and one of its guests. The London hotel involved submitted this to the Sunday Times. --------- Dear Maid, Please do not leave any more of those little bars of soap in my bathroom since I have brought my own bath-sized Dial. Please remove the six unopened little bars from the shelf under the medicine chest and another three in the shower soap dish. They are in my way. Thank you, S. Berman --- Dear Room 635, I am not your regular maid. She will be back tomorrow, Thursday, from her day off. I took the 3 hotel soaps out of the shower soap dish as you requested. The 6 bars on your shelf I took out of your way and put on top of your Kleenex dispenser in case you should change your mind. This leaves only the 3 bars I left today which my instructions from the management is to leave 3 soaps daily. I hope this is satisfactory. Kathy, Relief Maid ----- Dear Maid -- I hope you are my regular maid. Apparently Kathy did not tell you about my note to her concerning the little bars of soap. When I got back to my room this evening I found you had added 3 little Camays to the shelf under my medicine cabinet. I am going to be here in the hotel for two weeks and have brought my own bath-size Dial so I won't need those 6 little Camays which are on the shelf. They are in my way when shaving, brushing teeth, etc. Please remove them. ------ Dear Mr. Berman, My day off was last Wed. so the relief maid left 3 hotel soaps which we are instructed by the management. I took the 6 soaps which were in your way on the shelf and put them in the soap dish where your Dial was. I put the Dial in the medicine cabinet for your convenience. I didn't remove the 3 complimentary soaps which are always placed inside the medicine cabinet for all new check-ins and which you did not object to when you checked in last Monday. Please let me know if I can of further assistance. Your regular maid, Dotty ------- Dear Mr. Berman, The assistant manager, Mr. Kensedder, informed me this A.M. that you called him last evening and said you were unhappy with your maid service. I have assigned a new girl to your room. I hope you will accept my apologies for any past inconvenience. If you have any future complaints please contact me so I can give it my personal attention. Call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM. Thank you. Elaine Carmen Housekeeper ----- Dear Miss Carmen, It is impossible to contact you by phone since I leave the hotel for business at 745 AM and don't get back before 530 or 6PM. That's the reason I called Mr. Kensedder last night. You were already off duty. I only asked Mr. Kensedder if he could do anything about those little bars of soap. The new maid you assigned me must have thought I was a new check-in today, since she left another 3 bars of hotel soap in my medicine cabinet along with her regular delivery of 3 bars on the bath-room shelf. In just 5 days here I have accumulated 24 little bars of soap. Why are you doing this to me? S. Berman ---- Dear Mr. Berman, Your maid, Kathy, has been instructed to stop delivering soap to your room and remove the extra soaps. If I can be of further assistance, please call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM. Thank you, Elaine Carmen, Housekeeper ------ Dear Mr. Kensedder, My bath-size Dial is missing. Every bar of soap was taken from my room including my own bath-size Dial. I came in late last night and had to call the bellhop to bring me 4 little Cashmere Bouquets. S. Berman ------ Dear Mr. Berman, I have informed our housekeeper, Elaine Carmen, of your soap problem. I cannot understand why there was no soap in your room since our Maids are instructed to leave 3 bars of soap each time they service a room. The situation will be rectified immediately. Please accept my apologies for the inconvenience. Martin L. Kensedder Assistant Manager ------- Dear Mrs. Carmen, Who the hell left 54 little bars of Camay in my room? I came in last night and found 54 little bars of soap. I don't want 54 little bars of Camay. I want my one damn bar of bath-size Dial. Do you realize I have 54 bars of soap in here. All I want is my bath size Dial. Please give me back my bath-size Dial. S. Berman ---------- Dear Mr. Berman, You complained of too much soap in your room so I had them removed. Then you complained to Mr. Kensedder that all your soap was missing so I personally returned them. The 24 Camays which had been taken and the 3 Camays you are supposed to receive daily (sic). I don't know anything about the 4 Cashmere Bouquets. Obviously your maid, Kathy, did not know I had returned your soaps so she also brought 24 Camays plus the 3 daily Camays. I don't know where you got the idea this hotel issues bath-size Dial. I was able to locate some bath-size Ivory which I left in your room. Elaine Carmen Housekeeper -------- Dear Mrs. Carmen, Just a short note to bring you up-to-date on my latest soap inventory. As of today I possess: - On shelf under medicine cabinet - 18 Camay in 4 stacks of 4 and 1 stack of 2. - On Kleenex dispenser - 11 Camay in 2 stacks of 4 and 1 stack of 3. - On bedroom dresser - 1 stack of 3 Cashmere Bouquet, 1 stack of 4 hotel-size Ivory, and 8 Camay in 2 stacks of 4. - Inside medicine cabinet - 14 Camay in 3 stacks of 4 and 1 stack of 2. - In shower soap dish - 6 Camay, very moist. - On northeast corner of tub - 1 Cashmere Bouquet, slightly used. - On northwest corner of tub - 6 Camays in 2 stacks of 3. Please ask Kathy when she services my room to make sure the stacks are neatly piled and dusted. Also, please advise her that stacks of more than 4 have a tendency to tip. May I suggest that my bedroom window sill is not in use and will make an excellent spot for future soap deliveries. One more item, I have purchased another bar of bath-sized Dial which I am keeping in the hotel vault in order to avoid further misunderstandings. S. Berman

OK, some people are taking things I've said a bit too personally. I agree with a couple others who have suggested that this thread come to a close before any true harm comes. I never had any intention of this thread turning into a debate. Fact is, this place is just too nice for this. I don't regret starting the topic, but I knew it would bother some of you. I understand some people don't want their beliefs challenged. I find this odd, as I am inclined to question extraordinary claims. All this being said, I don't like leaving things hanging out there, so I will answer a few of Prouds points. **Don't read any further if you plan on taking any of this too personally. ** I really don't want to have any kind of debate. I am terrible at such things, because I am not very scientifically minded. It's all based on what makes sense, and what doesn't. It all boils down to this for me. I simply wonder why so many people, when faced with the origins of the world, choose to believe in an invisible, supernatural being who resides over some super-elite kingdom somewhere. Like Kent said, It all just seems so silly. It makes more sense to believe something a bit more logical first. "Do you have evidence to support that there is not a supreme being? If if can't be proven it doesn't exist? What about if it can't 'not' be proven? Does it then indeed exist? Hmmm, would that mean that there are or are not aliens?" A person making the claim is the one who needs to provide proof. You can't prove a negative. Someone says "I believe god" I say "prove that god exists" someone responds with "prove that he/she doesn't!" This doesn't make sense. I can say there is an invisible tiny dragon sitting on my shoulder. You can't prove there isn't, now can you? When proof shows up of gods existence I will join you all in your adoration. We have one child. He is not a gift from anything. We created him because we wanted a child. Amazing biological stuff happened, and then there he was. We are teaching him to not just accept everything people tell you. Ask questions. Doubt. Be skeptical. I tell him that many people believe many things. If he chooses to be religious when he gets older I would be baffled, but accepting certainly. No, I don't believe in miracles. Nothing happens for a "reason". The world just is what it is and we all happen to be lucky enough to be here. There is nothing special about humans or what we do in the overall scheme of things. Our lives are utterly meaningless when you consider the scope of the universe. Depressing, isn't it? "Here's an interesting concept. I once asked a practicing christian (and there is a difference between a christian and a practicing christian, but that's a different topic) "What if you get to the end and you find out there is no God and you've lived all of your life serving him?" His reply, "Wouldn't you rather spend your life serving God only to find out there was no God than to spend you life not serving him only to find out there was?"" This is called Pascal's Wager. See link. Makes no sense at all. Personally, I find religious debates pointless. Nobody convinces anyone of anything, and everyone leaves in a huff. This was fun, though, at least for me. I'll have to think of a topic a bit less controversial to start up. Maybe about favorite color, or the great 'Tea or Coffee' debate. ; - ) Here is a link that might be useful: Pascals Wager

Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Tue, Feb 26, 02 at 10:36 I use a weak tea formula. Make a cup of tea, anything that you have. Let it steep for 4 min, then dump it. Make a second cup with the same bag. Let this steep for 4 min. Add this to water to make 1 qt. Place seeds between 2 layers of paper towel on a plate. Moisten towel with tea. Place in fridge over night. My germination rate is usually in the high 90% range. Byron, A couple of questions: Is any kind of tea better than others? Green tea? Instant tea OK? Can I add tea to the starting medium rather than use a paper towel? Do the seeds need to be refrigerated? Does continuing to water with the tea during germination help or hinder? I have some already planted ancho/poblano & rocoto seeds that are being stubborn and wonder if I could add the tea to them now? John Follow-Up Postings: RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Fri, Mar 1, 02 at 12:09 Any tea except instant. Objective of 2nd use tea bag is to get tannins from the tea. I think those are removed from instant. Some folks feel chamomile (sp) helps reduce damp-off (??) Objective of seeds in fridge overnight is to help break dormancy cycle. Just overnight 8 to 12 hours is enough. Never tried adding tea to once planted seeds, it might help.. Byron RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: becki3 z5 IN (My Page) on Sat, Mar 2, 02 at 21:01 I started using weak chamomile tea to bottom water my seed trays when I saw some fungus starting to form on top of the soil. It not only got rid of the fungus (instantly), but the seedlings were standing up a little straighter a couple hours later. I have been bottom watering with it ever since, and my seedlings have been growing like crazy. I also use one of those Oil-O-Pump sprayers to mist the seedlings with, also using the weak chamomile tea. Works very well for brand-new seedlings, and my African Violet also loves it! You can find these sprayers in the kitchen stuff dept at Wal-Mart, etc. They are supposed to be for putting cooking oil in if you want to spray it like a cooking spray, but I find it works better for my plants. ;) And yes, I also use a very weak chamomile tea to wet my starting mix when planting seeds. Seems to prevent fungus and damp-off before it begins. And I had some seeds sprout in 1 day after planting using this method! Haven't tried any other kind of tea, but I imagine it would have a similar effect. Besides, I had an awful lot of old chamomile tea bags lying around. ;) Hope this helps, Becki :) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: tantaw 7 Tx (My Page) on Sat, Mar 2, 02 at 23:08 I would just like to echo Becki's thoughts on bottom watering with chamomile tea. I raise a lot of tomatoes and peppers from seed and I always bottom water with a weak chamomile tea solution. I have not had a damping off problem since I started using it. It may be all in my head but I think it works. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: John__ShowMe__USA 5 (My Page) on Sun, Mar 3, 02 at 9:21 I've never had a damping off problem that I was aware of. Granted there can be damp-off beneath the surface that I just didn't know about. Some of my peat pots look like fuzzy little moldy Chia pets. Doesn't seem to hurt the growing plant. I did spray my newly planted seeds with 1 part 3% hydrogen peroxide to 19 parts water. And I could do the same to get rid of the mold if I so choose. What I was trying to accomplish with Byron's tea was to break dormancy, not to kill mold. John RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: becki3 z5 IN (My Page) on Mon, Mar 4, 02 at 12:53 "And yes, I also use a very weak chamomile tea to wet my starting mix when planting seeds. Seems to prevent fungus and damp-off before it begins. And I had some seeds sprout in 1 day after planting using this method!" Sorry John, I should have pointed this out. I had 2 yr old tomato seeds sprout the day after I planted them (with 100% germination), using starting medium that had been wetted up with chamomile tea. And I had parsely come up in 5 days with this method, it has always taken me at least a couple weeks before. And I also had some 11 yr old luffa sponge seeds that had been in a starter medium for about a month that I had pretty much given up on. But I decided to start watering them with the chamomile tea, and a couple of them came up a few days later. That one might have been just blind luck, but I was sure the seeds were too old, so either way it was a nice surprise. I have no idea if it was the chamomile or just tea in general that has given me such great luck this year, but I'm not gonna question it, just enjoy it. And I owe it all to Byron, I started doing this after I saw a post of his earlier this year about the paper towel germination method, and I've been busy ever since. Thanks Byron! ;) I hope this helps to answer some questions for you, good luck with your seeds, Becki :) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 02 at 13:28 John If you wanted to be real cheap, could have asked for a used tea bag in your local coffee shop.. It only takes one to make a qt. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: John__ShowMe__USA 5 (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 02 at 15:51 >>If you wanted to be real cheap, could have asked for a used tea bag in your local coffee shop.. It only takes one to make a qt. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: becki3 z5 IN (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 02 at 19:39 John, I really hope this works for you. I haven't started any of my peppers yet, probably in the next week or so, so I don't know how they respond. But if they don't sprout up in the next few days, is there any chance the seeds could be old? I just planted some green onions a few weeks ago, and didn't have a single seed germinate out of the whole pack, although all the storage onions I planted at the same time came up within a couple days. And I just bought them a few days prior to the first planting! And they were Burpee! The only thing I can think of is I just got a bad pack of seeds. So I'm getting ready to try again with a couple more packs, from 2 different companies. Could something like this have happened with yours? Good luck, Becki :) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Cindy_7 z6/7 VA (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 02 at 21:30 Becki- I started onion seeds on the Feb. 23rd and most were up by the third of March. I did use the chamomile tea mentioned above. I started Super Star from Pinetree, Valencia from Seeds of Change, Sweet Spanish from Better Homes and Gardens, and Leeks, also from BH & G. Out of 64 seeds, about nine did not germinate. I think the tea helped. I will definately use it again. FWIW Cindy RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 02 at 21:57 Folks maybe having old seeds from Burpee this year, They are in Chapt 11, I wouldn't buy a thing from them.. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: John__ShowMe__USA 5 (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 02 at 22:16 Becki, I've shared seeds & info with Cindy and she knows more than I do. I would try the chamomile tea with your onion seed. Guess that I will have to go to the store again for some chamomile tea. Used to use it years ago when I was all organic. Wonder if it would work mixed with green tea? Probably so. And refrigerate for a day or so too? And why not add a weak Miracle Gro or Peters solution to the mix? What do you think Byron? John RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Thu, Mar 7, 02 at 23:14 I won't use fertilizer on my seedlings, I think you do a salt kill. I can't prove it.. Try some both ways and see what happens.. Onion seeds are known for a lower germination rate, some are as low as 50%.. Byron RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: John__ShowMe__USA 5 (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 8:24 >>I won't use fertilizer on my seedlings, I think you do a salt kill. I can't prove it.. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Cindy_7 z6/7 VA (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 8:36 I forgot to mention, I started my seeds indoors in peat pots with a heating pad (and the tea). Cindy RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: becki3 z5 IN (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 9:46 Cindy, I started BH&G onion seeds, southport white, and sweet spanish yellow, and also leeks from Ferry Morse, and they were all up in a couple days. I also have some red onion sets that I haven't tried yet, cheap ones from Lowes. I searched everywhere and couldn't find the seeds locally. Next year I'm just gonna order all my new seeds on line I think. I'm glad the tea worked for you. :) Byron, Thanks for the tip about Burpee! Makes me feel better knowing it probably wasn't me. ;) John, I did try the tea on the last couple sowings from that pack of seeds, but it didn't work. When I dug through the soil to see if anything at all happened, I found all the seeds still there but they were soft and kind of crumbly (rotted), just fell apart when I pinched one between my fingers. YUCK! As far as storing the tea, I usually put the first cup into a gallon jug and fill the rest of the way with water, put the cap on, and set it in the corner somewhere to be used for watering seedlings or wetting up new starting medium. Then the second cup I'll let steep for a long time (read: I forget to pull the bag out). I'll add about a quart of water and use it for whatever I'm doing at the moment, soaking seeds, starting seeds, etc. Any excess from this goes into my houseplants. As for prepackaged fertilizer, I've no clue, never tried it on seeds or seedlings. But I do water my seedlings with old water from my fishtanks, I alternate between that and the tea solution in the jug. And most of my tanks have live plants in them which I have to add aquatic plant food to. But I'm pretty sure by the time I take the water back out, the plant food has been all used up. Either way, it seems to work wonders for all my plants, indoors or out. Probably more info than you wanted to know. ;) Think I'll go get a new tea bag and try my new BH&G green onions now, Becki :) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 10:14 Not just Burpee, reports are filtering in from the Totally Tomatoes groups. The Burpee group includes the Martha Stewart seeds. BHG Look on the back you can tell where the seeds came from. In the Northeast most of them on the rack were from Ferry Morse, an old reliable Co. NK seeds does some, They have been around for years. My "bet your life" group is Stokes, Vesey's and Johnny's Don't waste your gastric juices in trying to get your money back from Burpee. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: John__ShowMe__USA 5 (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 10:28 >>Either way, it seems to work wonders for all my plants, indoors or out. Probably more info than you wanted to know. ;) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: becki3 z5 IN (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 11:05 Byron, Thanks again! I didn't know that about the back of the seed packs. Yup, mine all say Ferry Morse. Cool! And I will make a note of your recomendations for next year. :) John, 125 gal aquarium ! I'm so jealous I'm drooling! My largest one is a 75. But I've got 7 other smaller ones scattered throughout my house. (Went a little overboard!) And boy, I know what you mean about that algae! Got a serious outbreak of hair algae in the big tank that I can't seem to get rid of! Got a whole series of test kits, but can't seem to get a good balance. Waiting now to see if it will break down in the compost pile. LOL I didn't know that about the leafy veggies, this is my first year as a serious effort growing lettuce, broccolli, etc. I will stop using it on those seedlings. But I sure got some great tomatoes and peppers last year with it! And the Romas and Cayennes both produced so many I couldn't keep up with them. My dad would come to visit and take home "fish water" in empty milk jugs to water his 4 roma tomato plants with. He was harvesting a 3-gallon bucket full every other day from those 4 plants, and begging all the neighbors to take the tomatoes! LOL Becki :) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 13:39 Becki If you want to get really cool, There is a Comstock Ferre seed/plant co in Old Weathesfield Conn. Been selling seeds since 1826. Plants since the 1770's Plant leafy veggies as soon as you can work the soil. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: becki3 z5 IN (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 16:29 1770'S......WOW! I figured you could buy seeds back then, the farmers had to start somewhere. But plants? I would have thought everybody would have still had no choice but to start their own. Makes you really appreciate the reliability of a good seed company. I've been hardening off all my leafy stuff all week. And removing the winter mulch from my beds, the soil was 54 degrees this morning, and nice and crumbly as I turned over the top. Problem being, we are supposed to get some pretty nasty thunderstorms over the next couple days so I think I'm gonna cover my beds with plastic and wait till next week. I've also been digging a new bed, and I can tell I've been very lazy all winter, cause boy am I sore! Don't remember being this bad last spring! LOL Wish I would have thought to do an IBM or something last fall, but my garden has grown considerably as I've been cooped up inside all winter. ;) Now, where did I put that Advil? Becki :) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Shelly_and_Roy z9b Houston TX (My Page) on Sat, Mar 9, 02 at 15:49 So you're saying that fishy water from aquariums is great for plants? How about fishy water from a small backyard pond? Would I need to test it for anything before using it on our tomatoes & such? A bog garden acts as our biological filter, so I know it hasn't been toxic to plants, plus the water lilies went nuts last year so I figure it can't be too bad. I can just see it now: I'm at the pond with a gallon jug and all the fish are begging me to feed them, not understanding that I'm taking some "fertilized" water. :) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Scribz z5 OH (My Page) on Sat, Mar 9, 02 at 17:59 I've used aquarium water, water from my backyard pond(let), and water from my turtle tank to nourish my plants for a long time. Works great. It seems to contain many micro-nutrients that stimulate good growth in plants. Just don't use aquaria water that has added salt (NaCl). I'm a little skittish about using he turtle tank water on anything I might consume because turtles carry salmonella... by the way, anybody want a couple of fat lazy turtles ??("Frankie"and "Lola") Scribz RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: becki3 z5 IN (My Page) on Sat, Mar 9, 02 at 20:18 Yes, by all means. Pond water is great for plants too, and probably contains a little extra nutrients because of stuff falling to the bottom just as it does in nature, like leaves, etc. Kind of like water composting. ;) (Okay, maybe I'm reaching a little there!) The things to watch for with pond or aquarium water is salt as Scribz mentioned, or any kind of water-conditioning chemical. Although I wouldn't worry too much about a dechlorinator, I use a simple one that doesn't do anything else except take out the chlorine and chloramines, no extra additives, and don't think twice about putting this water on my food crops. Also, never use water that has been medicated for sick fish. That stuff can travel! And I'd be a little leary about water from sick fish in general, even un-medicated ones - e Becki :) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: John__ShowMe__USA 5 (My Page) on Sun, Mar 10, 02 at 11:50 Planted a bunch of old Ancho 101 seeds on 2/14. So far none have sprouted. They were slow to germinate last year, but at least some showed up. Soaked a bunch of the same seeds in tea and in the fridge for 12 hours and planted them on 3/02. Many popped up this morning. I'm impressed! Don't know if it was the cold, the tea, or a combination. But, something worked. Both batches were kept at 85F. John RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Sun, Mar 10, 02 at 13:33 John Did you try some with MG? IMHO Its the combination, Think about this. In our zone may flower seeds fall to the ground, They do not start growing until the following spring. Sample of cold dormancy to protect the seed. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: becki3 z5 IN (My Page) on Mon, Mar 11, 02 at 8:11 Congrats John! I think Byron's right, probably the combo. Glad it worked! Becki :) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: John__ShowMe__USA 5 (My Page) on Mon, Mar 11, 02 at 8:54 >>Did you try some with MG?>Congrats John! RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Padron4km 8/9 (My Page) on Sat, Mar 16, 02 at 1:16 I'm testing it right now... a little more than a dozen Chilitepin seeds in the fridge, moistened with the only tea we have left in the house (after a particularly bad cold and flu season) Lemon Zinger! :) I'll put some seeds in peat pellets tomorrow, sans tea, and see what happens.... I'll report back j RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Cindy_7 z6/7 VA (My Page) on Sat, Mar 16, 02 at 9:36 I watered the seeds after the soaking with the tea. Really don't know if it helped or hurt, but many came up. I did not keep percentages and probably should have. Any thoughts on this? Cindy RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: armadillo Berlin, Germany (My Page) on Wed, Mar 20, 02 at 7:08 Byron, First I would like to thank both you and John for posting/reposting this recipe. I used it on my second batch of seeds I started and it made a tremendous difference in germination time and ratio. Some of the replies to this thread made me wonder about some things so I did a bit of research and would like to report what I found. The antifungal properties of chamomile are very well documented by both clinical and toxicological studies. I was unable to find out how tea promotes germination (I only have phytopharmaceutical literature to search not agricultural) but if it is flavonoids that do it then green tea should be a bit more effective as it has more of these at higher concentrations. If it is the tannins then black tea should be better as they seem to be concentrated by the fermentation process that turns green tea into black. Has anyone ever done a comparison test to see which works better? If the Lemon Zinger that Padron is trying is really effective then this indicates it is the flavinoids as it has no tannins but then it does contain citric acid which may very well soften the seed coat and speed germination by another mechanism. Scribz Are you getting rid of Frankie and Lola because of the salmonella danger or because they are fat and lazy? I have never seen a trim, energetic turtle. :oD Thanks, Armadillo RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Thu, Mar 21, 02 at 8:12 Armadillo Best I can tell you is that the tannins help soften the seed coat.. Chamomile would not work in this function. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: armadillo Berlin, Germany (My Page) on Fri, Mar 22, 02 at 1:44 Byron, Yep. That is just what I found by still researching. I was able to confirm that chamomile shold help against damping off but I couldn't find anything in it that would effect seed starting. Thanks, Armadillo RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: John__ShowMe__USA 5 (My Page) on Fri, Mar 22, 02 at 11:43 I'm continuing to have success with bad seeds using green tea and refrigerating the seeds first. Am using green tea and steeping a bag in a boiling cup of water. Discarding the brewed tea & making a second cup with the same tea bag. This cup I add water to make one quart weak tea. Store in refrigerator. Cindy, (a couple of posts up) soaked her seeds in tea and continued to spray them if I understand correctly. She reports success too. I'm convinced that the tea helps. Just not sure how much the refrigeration contributes to the success if it does at all. When my seed starting frenzy is over I plan to try an experiment with some seeds that have low or no germination. Am thinking about the following: All seeds to germinate at a controlled 85° Will include: A. seeds soaked in distilled water at room temp for 24 hours B. seeds soaked in distilled water while refrigerated for 24 hours B. seeds soaked in tea while refrigerated for 24 hours C. seeds soaked in tea at room temp for 24 hours Anyone see see something that should be added to this test? Or changed? Only have 15 credits of organic chem & am no whizz at setting up experiments. Would appreciate any help here. John ------------------- RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Fri, Mar 22, 02 at 14:09 0 credits in chem.. Instead of distilled water, try potassium nitrate. or in addition. This has been suggested by many. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: armadillo Berlin, Germany (My Page) on Mon, Mar 25, 02 at 8:40 John, You should start some unsoaked seeds as well as the others for control. Be very carefull to treat all the seeds just the same except for what you want to test. Armadillo RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: armadillo Berlin, Germany (My Page) on Mon, Mar 25, 02 at 8:41 John, You should start some unsoaked seeds as well as the others for control. Be very carefull to treat all the seeds just the same except for what you want to test. Armadillo RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: John__ShowMe__USA 5 (My Page) on Mon, Mar 25, 02 at 11:45 Armadillo writes: >>You should start some unsoaked seeds as well as the others for control. Be very carefull to treat all the seeds just the same except for what you want to test. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: armadillo Berlin, Germany (My Page) on Tue, Mar 26, 02 at 6:51 John, You may want to add another two catagories by trying both green and black tea. A few basics for an accurate test would be (you probably know all this already): All seeds identical (same plant, year, storage, etc.) Each group should have the same number of seeds and the more the better for more accuracy (at least 10 per group, 50 would be better, 100 per group would be great not only to have a more accurate result but it would make the math much easier to figure the results) All other factors a identical as possible (light, temp, substrate, etc.) Always have a control group as well. Keep a detailed record of progress broken down into equal time periods (hourly, daily, weekly or whatever) Actually seeds should be easy to test as they won't fail to show up for examinations, won't get freaked by media reports and drop out of the study, all the factors are objective not subjective and they won't cheat or lie about livestyle questions. Would you please post your results in reasonable detail as I amvery interested. I wanted to do the same test but I could not find enough old seeds. If you are doing it I will print out your results and use for a compairison control if/when I get around to doing the same test. (It is standard test procedure to repeat tests in various location to verify the results.) If you would like any help evaluating the results for statistical significance I will be glad to help. I hope this helps some, Armadillo, who has 0 university level science credits but has spent the last few years translating clinical and pharm/tox studies and expert reports for new drug registrations. P.S. Could someone tell me why my above post appeared twice but this one didn't appear when I first posted it? RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Tue, Mar 26, 02 at 11:17 John To stay with some growers of today.. Can you give me a report tomorrow? ;-,) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Raye 7NC (My Page) on Sat, Apr 20, 02 at 7:14 Does this work only for vegetable seeds or will it work for any type of seed? I am expecting some cacti seed I ordered and I wonder if that would work for them? RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: arabesque z10FL (My Page) on Sun, Apr 28, 02 at 0:49 I have been reading the tips for starting seeds using chamomile, green tea, and refrigeration. I am in south Florida and wonder if refrigeration applies in this climate. That is, the plants we grow down here would not be accustomed to chilling out in the winter. Does this make sense to you? I just started 5 seeds for a rare cultivar of a tropical plant. I am told the germination rate is usually 2 plants out of 5 seeds. I naturally would like a higher rate so am going to try the chamomile tea for future moistenings. They normally take 6-8 weeks to germinate. I want to alternate chamomile with green tea waterings. Do any of you see any reason not to use it on tropical plants? If it is the tannins that help dissolve the seedcoat, I can't see that it would be any different but I don't want to jump to an unreasoned conclusion and discover an exception to the rule through trial and error. These were expensive seeds so I am naturally proceeding with caution. Thanks for your thoughts about this! Arabesque in Florida RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: zoliene15 z5/6 PA (My Page) on Sun, Apr 28, 02 at 3:33 Arabesque, I'm not certain but I don't think chamomile has the tannins of regular tea since it is an herbal tea. Bryon,and Armadillo, wanted to give an in progress report on a tea/frige treatment applied to some Jamacian Hot Chocolate seeds. One group started on april 12 no treatment. So far 8 popping out of the soil. Treatment group started april 15, so far 1. I wasn't going to compare but I had such crappy germenation with my first patch 5 for 30 seeds!!! (this was using the potassium nitrate soak prior to sowing. Did not soak seeds over night.) As I said hadn't started as an experiment. But I wanted some extra plants (G). All seeds were from the same company but since received at different times could have been from different suppliers in theory. If you like could keep you informed,so you can cut some of the variables. John you forgot a variable- E. unsoaked seeds refrigerated for 24 hours zoliene RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Sun, Apr 28, 02 at 10:55 Arabesque, The way I undestand it, it's the tannins in green tea that do the job, Herbal tea's would not have tannins. The frig is to break dormancy cycle. This is part of the life of the seeds. Zoilene If you do 1 night in the fridge and keep the seeds damp in a paper towel, you can see new tomato roots in 48 hours. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: John__ShowMe__USA 5 (My Page) on Sun, Apr 28, 02 at 11:44 >>That is, the plants we grow down here would not be accustomed to chilling out in the winter. Does this make sense to you?>John you forgot a variable- E. unsoaked seeds refrigerated for 24 hours zoliene I wasn't doing an experiment, I was desperate. Out of maybe 60+ Rocoto seeds only one germinated (red). Tried the tea/refrigerator and the few remaining seeds I had sprouted at 6/10 yellow Rocoto and 1/6 orange Rocoto. I think the seeds were old to start with. The orange Rocoto seeds were crumbling at the slightest touch. I ended up with 1 red, 1 orange and 6 yellow out of about 80 seeds. Here's the way I see it... if the seeds are good to start with they don't need any help germinating at all. If they are bad you have a chance with refrigerating and soaking in tea. I had excellent germination with over 30 varieties using no special treatment. A few varieties benefited from special treatment. JohnT RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: arabesque z10FL (My Page) on Sun, Apr 28, 02 at 20:56 When I mentioned tannins, was in relation to alternating chamomile with green tea which has tannins. I have also used Pau d'Arco tea, also called Purple LaPacho, for drinking. It is particularly known for its antifungal, antibacterial properties. Has anyone heard of using it on seeds? Is nothing known about chamomile's effect on seeds? I am going to check in some of my herbal literature whether it is considered antifungal, etc. Arabesque RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Sun, Apr 28, 02 at 22:06 chamomile tea is touted by some as a method of controling damping off. I don't have a way of testing it, Byron RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: arabesque z10FL (My Page) on Thu, May 9, 02 at 0:12 On the mystery of chamomile - Chamomile is used frequently in Chinese traditional medicine nutrition for healing. In Chinese medicine, as you may know, the focus is on restoring energetic balance in the body to treat the constitution, rather than on treating disease per se. From Paul Pitchford's reference book, Healing With Whole Foods, I learned, among other effects chamomile has in the body that, in Chinese medicine nutrition, it is used to dry damp conditions. It is also used to bring energy up and out of stagnancy. That suggests that it could well have some quality that can jump-start a seed. Strangely enough, in another situation, it is used to moisten dryness! This suggests to me that it may work to create balance, or the ideal condition. I felt pleased to learn this about chamomile. It probably doesn't kill fungus, it rather creates a dry condition where fungus can't grow. (This is typical of the way chinese medicine works.) That its effect on a seed is the same, well similar, to the effect in the human body re drying dampness, makes me wonder if its ability to bring energy up and out of stagnancy in the body correlates to seeds coming out of dormancy quickly. There is clearly more to chamomile than meets the eye, more to learn. From several seed pods that I harvested today, I must have a few hundred amaryllis seeds. I am afraid I won't be able to keep up with the maintenance on this quantity of plants but of course the vision of a mass of blooms does work its seduction on me. How long will they be viable? They are in the refrigerator now just in a plastic storage dish, not in tea-soaked paper towels. This seems like a major gardening project! Arabesque RE: Byron's tea for seed starting, a P.S. Posted by: arabesque z10FL (My Page) on Thu, May 9, 02 at 0:18 By the way, bottom watering seeds has been mentioned a few times in this thread. How important is bottom watering? Are seed pots left in a tray of water constantly, or simply soaked for a few minutes? Thanks, Arabesque :-) RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: Byron 4a/5b NH (My Page) on Thu, May 9, 02 at 10:57 Bottom watering I think is very important from planting to germination so that the seeds will not float away. After the plant is started I don't think it makes a difference. RE: Byron's tea for seed starting Posted by: NorthEast_ChileMan 6a MA (My Page) on Wed, Jul 17, 02 at 21:41 I'm Replying to this tread so it's not deleted. I think the entire thread be condensed & posted in FAQ's site.         FAQ Page GardenWeb Home Page | Forums | Forum