OK, I'll bite.

10 commandments thread, you chimed in while I was composing offline. I actually wrote a reply, then thought better of hijacking FlowerLady's thread. Still in my clipboard, here 'tis:

My take on religion is probably similar to Mrmorton's, though I do make the distinction between religious and spiritual. There are other ways to share bounty than veggies. Flowers for a shut-in, cuttings for a fellow gardener, advice for a newbie, a patient ear after a hail storm.

I've seen you around other GW boards, and you're always generous with well-intended advice, even if I don't always 100% agree :-)

Put me in the Agnostic camp. I think there may be a god in the sense of an organizing principle to the universe, the reason why physics formulas are so 'elegant' (i.e, simple, my mathematician side), but someone who takes personal interest in our day-to-day life I doubt.

Cottage is a very welcoming, accepting forum. I've never felt ill at ease. As you say, we respect those who believe differently.

So, no, you're not alone. I don't roll my eyes, just take what speaks to me and ignore the rest. This is, after all, the off-topic side. Maybe if there aren't any other takers we can continue offline? I think these thoughts often.

Ana

O.K. I'll step up to the plate, being a person who has been known to STEP in it more than once or twice. I am more a believer in evolution than religion.
My mom was Anglican, my father turned to Christian Science, my grandparents were United Church, I was christened in the United Church.
My first 5 years in school I was taught by the Sisters of St. Anne whom I was so very fond of.
I have friends who are J.W's, one of the best friends I had while growing up was a Mormon, I think it's fair to say I've had some insight into the beliefs of others.

Over the years, through the not so easy path I've had to follow to get to where I am today I've found rather than religion being my mainstay I try to live my life in a manner as to respect others beliefs, respect this wonderful world I've been given the privilege to live in and hope to be treated as I have always treated others. Let's just leave it at that.

Annette

"I guess the point is that we can all believe whatever we want as long as we remember that there are those who think differently, and to respect those beliefs(or lack thereof)"

I think that goes without saying, MrMorton.

As Ana said, the Cottage is a very accepting forum.
I love the way the C.G.ers take what they like and leave the rest.
If someone wants to
praise him/herself
or if they want to praise God
or give thanks to Mother Nature or their cement garden Gnome
for the part he/she/it played in the garden,
I can't believe that a single person here would take them to task over it or would comment negatively in any way.
. . . and most would manage it with a minimum of eye-rolling too.

So, MrMorton here it is:
I do not attend any specific church.
I am not "religious".
I have my own reasons, ideas and beliefs.
One if them is a belief in the power of prayer. Now they might not be prayers that anyone here has ever heard of but they are from the heart and I believe THAT is the key to everything.
I like what Annette said in her last paragraph very much. I feel the same way.
PattiOh

I am happy to see some responses. I know this is a heavy topic, but please don't take it too seriously. I have never, and will never say or do anything negative in regards to someones beliefs. I have always just ignored any overtly religious postings, and will continue to do so. Today I felt inspired to do otherwise. Hopefully, no "harm" will come of it.
Sadly, PattiOH, some things do not go without saying. Perhaps around here(on this board) they do, but the "real" world is a very different animal. I am surrounded by bible-thumping Christians(The owner of the company I work for is a very religious person and tends to attract the same as employees)who seem downright amused by the "The Atheist" My experience with Christians is that they seem to assume that everyone else is one too; And if you're not, you ought to be! Great guys, otherwise.
Also, prayer, to me, is a touchstone of religion. Basically, you are praying to someone(presumably a god) to ask for help(or to chat?). I imagine if you are not praying to a god, it would be called something else. You say you are not "religious", and yet you pray. Apparently, you get something out of doing so, and thats great.
I very much like Annettes last paragraph, too. I completely agree. Remember, this topic is just to satisfy my curiosity. Nobody HAS to answer any of my questions, but I thank very much those who do.

Maybe it is just me...but to me....rolling your eyes is making judgements, definately making judgments......and it is expressing your thoughts or judgment on it. (even net eye rolling)

(by the way, I am not a bible thumping believer,before you jump to conclusions in fact quite the opposite, I think you would be surprise what I believe). But I also do not feel the need to share that or debate it with others....

I just think eye rolling is not respecting....

Disclaimer_THIS IS JUST MY OPINION...I am not asking anyone agree or disagree nor do I want to debate it.

I can't say that I disagree with anything that has been stated so far.
I particularly agree with these two thoughts...
"My take on religion is probably similar to Mrmorton's, though I do make the distinction between religious and spiritual."Ana, and
"One if them is a belief in the power of prayer. Now they might not be prayers that anyone here has ever heard of but they are from the heart and I believe THAT is the key to everything."Patti
We have a term around here "a power for the good" and at this point in my life thats what makes sense to me, Martha

Keesha, I reserve the "bible-thumping" moniker for very specific people. For people who are constantly spouting bible verses, and are consumed by their faith and belief in the bible as the utmost truth. I would have no reason to call you any such thing.
I KNEW the eye-rolling would get me in trouble, but I left it in there anyway. It's a bit of harmless honesty I reserve for the type of people as described above.
Nobody is 100% free of judgment. Heck, I may even make another topic about it sometime.
Once again, thanks for the responses so far.

Oh dear, I'm probably going to get kicked off GW for what I'm about to say. If I do.....I'll miss you ALL :-)

I am a Christian.

I am Catholic although I do not keep to all the rules of the church.

I don't attend church that much but I pray everyday. I have to otherwise I go nuts in this troublesome world.

I have read the bible several times and have studied other religious beliefs. I find the history fascinating.

I have prayed for all of you at some point in time.

I respect everyone's beliefs what ever they may be... I respect your beliefs also Mr. Morton (no eyes rolling here)

There, I said it .

Edna

p.s...Flower is just about the sweetest soul on earth and her post was beautiful.

Edna, I have also prayed for my gardening buddies at some time or other. These prayers come from the bottom of my heart. They are my most heartfelt wishes for the people who I feel have become dear friends. I agree Flower is just about the sweetest soul on earth and her post was beautiful.

Annette

It speaks volumes about the quality of the CG family that religion, a subject so fraught with peril, can be discussed in such a civilized manner. This certainly wouldn't be true on most of the other forums I frequent. It's a shining example of why I love you all so much.

As for me, well, you can understand why I find certain organized religions to be dangerous. I would be executed in many Muslim countries. In this country, there are certain factions of Christians that consider me subhuman, unworthy to sit at the table. In the extreme, you see it in congregations such as the Westboro Baptist Church. But I also see it in people such as James Dobson, who is actively pushing for an American Theocracy. Among the things I value most about this country is the separation of church and state and I must remain on constant vigil.

That being said, I admire many, many things about Christianity, not least of which is the rich legacy of culture and architecture it has brought to Western Civilization. I admire the basic principles: Love thy neighbor, Do unto others, Those without sin cast the first stone. The gentle philosophy of the New Testament gives us wisdom that all people can benefit from.

I consider myself to be a Deist. I believe that there is a higher power and that death is not the end. I firmly believe that the way you conduct yourself in this life will drive what comes next. To that end, I constantly strive to be the best human being that I can be. I don't always live up to my own expectations because, well, I'm human. But I do try. I've provided a link that explains Deism a little more in depth.

Oh, and before I close, I do want to thank those of you who may have prayed for me on occasion. It touches me. I pray right back atcha, in my own way.

Steven

Here is a link that might be useful: Deism.

Very interesting Mr M! And nice posts by everyone. I'm not particularly religious or spiritual myself. However, religion fascinates me. In my college days I packed in as many elective classes as I could. Religion/philosophy courses were some of my favorites. I think all the various religions have wonderful things to show us about ourselves.

Have I mentioned before that my father's family has a number of Jehovah's Witnesses? They don't exactly approve of me, but they know I don't exactly approve of them either, so it balances out (we all know who is right and just keep our mouths shut, lol). My mother dragged me from church to church growing up so I've had a wide (if shallow) exposure. Johnny himself is part of a strongly Presbyterian family, with a good many church builders and leaders. (The Baptists still sing the best, and the Brethren play the best, in my opinion. Presbyterians, as far as I can tell, all sing a beat too slow, but they are nice people.)

I've gone to Mass with Catholic friends (Latin practice) and I went to a Lutheran college. The Mormons I know have the most wonderful families. (Are they all like that? Sadly not, I'm sure.)

I've grilled a friend of mine who became a full citizen not too long ago about the differences between the Orthodox churches. (Despite homosexuality being illegal in his home country he is deeply religious, which I find interesting.) I've realized how small my knowledge of Judaism is and I read up on it and ask friends about it as much as seems polite. I know hardly more about Islam and only drips and drabs about the eastern religions (only what I picked up in college really).

And I know plenty of "free spirits" who worship as it pleases them too. Although, once again in my opinion, they should do a little more work. I hardly see how their rituals could amount to anything without proper symbolism (but that way leads to Episcopagans, so I'll stop there).

I don't mind people believing in a higher power, but it galls me to think people would ever presume to do much of anything in the name of a higher power (especially killing). And it bothers me when spiritual belief becomes secondary to the trappings (I'm mentally smacking my hand after the above paragraph).

I would say I straddle the fence between Agnosticism and Atheism, if such a thing is possible. A higher power just seems a little silly to me, and damaging to us as a society. It would be better by far to just remember the Golden Rule. On the other few hands, I would hate to think that I was totally wrong, I would hate to dismiss so many centuries of history and culture, and I would hate to think of all the wonderful stories that make up religious texts not being part of my life.

My very best friend became a "born again" a year or three back. We were talking books while she was still in nursing school and she told me she didn't read fiction due to a lack of time and interest. I pointed at her Bible and said "you read that don't you?" She was greatly offended for a few minutes, but it lead to a nice discussion.

Exactly, Steven. I knew we could have a civil discussion around here, and I am happy to see some great responses.
Edna, why in the world would you think that post would get you in trouble? You simply stated what you believe in. No harm there. Thats the whole point of this topic! If anyone gets the boot, its gonna be me!
For the record, I have nothing against Flowers' Ten C's post. I was chuckling at myself, because being the heathen I am, I should have just avoided it.
While praying to a higher power doesn't work for me, I can certainly see the reasoning behind it. It allows one to get things off their chest, relax, and hope for the best. It is a very nice gesture that may make people feel better simply by knowing others are thinking of them. Scientific studies have proven it to be ineffective, but to each their own, ya know?
Steven, you wouldn't believe some of the conversations that these god-fearing Christians have around here. You are right in that homosexuals are pretty much subhuman to them. Its appalling.

I grew up religious. Church, Sunday School, etc. Never liked it, but I did believe in it. I even prayed a lot. I think it was about 10 years ago when I finally came to the realization that I just don't buy it anymore. There was nothing logical or reasonable about any of it. I am now 100% certain there is no god(and never was), and that I will be cremated and tossed into a forest somewhere when I die. Remember, this is MY opinion I have arrived at after many years of "soul"(of course I don't believe in these either)-searching.
Now here's something you won't get from most Atheists:
I'd like to be wrong. I wish there were a god, and angels, and heaven, and all that stuff. It's all so very "romantic" sounding. I can see why so many people believe it. Because its the way they WANT things to be. It's so much nicer to think that after we die we have some kind of eternal life.
Alas, it is not to be. The logical, scientific side of my brain simply won't allow it. As Kent mentioned, the Golden Rule is where its at for me.
I'm very happy with how this is going so far. So heres the lineup for the rest of the week:
Wed-Abortion
Thurs - politics
Fri - Stem cell research
Sat - Those Irises sure are purty!
LOL!
Thanks, everyone!

I am a Christian, one of slubs "Episcopagans", lol. Grew up in a liberal church (United Church of Canada) and did not go to church for many, many years until I found an Episcopal church that accepted me readily as I am, as well as everyone else that goes there.
I believe and have always believed there is a God, I believe in Jesus, I also believe that there is evil and a devil.
But you know what? I also don't mind that you all don't believe the same things I do. My husband does not, his family does not. My mother goes to church but says she questions things.
Believing that God created us in his image, and that he is a thinking God with loads of imagination - then I also believe He created thinking people with brains of their own to think and feel as they so choose. This is one of the things I like most about being Episcopalian.
If your beliefs are agnostic, atheist or of course any other religion (part of my family is Jewish) etc. I really don't have a problem with that. Personally, because of my beliefs I do have a hard time accepting that some people choose to be satanists - but then again those are the same folks who have a problem with my own beliefs, so sometimes I find it better to agree to disagree and put it away at that.

girlgroupgirl

This whole thread has had me sit back and give some serious thought as to why I feel the way I do...
Do I believe in God, maybe not in the same sense as some, I do believe that there is ? somewhere that created the universe, I can't if I'm honest put a name to it.
Do I believe in religion, no, too many hateful things have been done in the name of religion. I do try to be a kind and helpful human being. This is the code I live by and I can't see myself changing in the near future. So what does that make me, or do I really care.

Annette

What an interesting post. Thank you for starting this thread MrM. I always considered myself the only non-believing person here. I'm glad to know I'm not alone.

I don't believe in God, or any gods for that matter. And I also don't believe in organized religion. So no, I'm not atheist or agnostic. I am nothing, plain and simple. I refuse to be categorized within religious bounds.

I think religions were started to categorize people simply to rank one group ahead of another. And the sad part is there is still so much of this in the world today.

Many people will ask me how I can function, how I can celebrate holidays, what I believe in, etc. I believe in science, the basic goodness of people, but that good people can turn bad and that bad things can happen to good people for no reason. I celebrate some holidays, like Christmas & Easter not as the religious celebrations they are today, but as the pagan celebrations they were centuries ago. I try to be a good person and treat everyone fairly and with kindness.

And most of all, to not discriminate against anyone based upon their religious beliefs, whatever those may be. Heck, I married a church-going Christian man, so I must be doing all right with that part at least.

But those are just my two cents.

Tracy

Good post, Tracy. We share many of the same sentiments on life and religion.
I'm not big on labeling either, but it sounds to me like you would most certainly be an Atheist:
Atheist(from dictionary.com) - a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Atheism is NOT a religion. A religion is based on belief, not disbelief. It is simply a way of lumping together non-believers. Religion rarely plays a part in my life. I would describe myself with many other labels before even mentioning that I'm not religious.
Ask a typical Christian to describe themselves, and they will almost always put "Christian" at the top of the list.
Their religious beliefs play a major part in their everyday lives. I will on occasion refer to myself as an Atheist to get the point across quickly. Most people know exactly what it means(unfairly negative connotations and all).
I have no idea how you can be married to a Christian(Love, I guess,huh? lol), unless he's more casual about it. My wife is also a non-believer, and I couldn't have it any other way. I feel bad for a child raised in a household with conflicting beliefs, unless things are somehow worked out ahead of time.

Okay, here goes...
I am a Christian. I had a live changing, soul saving experience, i.e. "born again" and I've never waivered in my belief from the moment that happened to me 34 years ago. I am not tolerant nor do I understand how anyone can deny there is a Supreme Being. God gave us freedom of choice. You can choose to believe or not. If there is the slightest glimmer of doubt then put it to the test. Get on your knees and admit you are a sinner and ask Jesus into your heart. I could go on and on but I know you all get where I'm coming from.

I love you all, may God Bless you!!!
Vikki

It matters not to me what folks choose to believe or not believe. What matters is how I make other people feel. I want to be a kind person. If I accidentally hurt someone's feelings it upsets me greatly. Sometimes that is a danger in writing when one cannot read the faces and gestures of those in our virtual conversations.

I've been to places like Russia when it was the Soviet Union. I've been to the Middle East where I was in Jordan one week and Israel the next. I've been to the deserts in North Africa and islands all over the Caribbean. I've seen all kinds of conditions based upon religions or political powers. I've been to great cathedrals and humble chapels in many countries as well as monuments to political power and empires.

I've been in the Church of the Archangel Michael inside the Kremlin, St. Pauls in London, mosques in Morocco and the Middle East, The Vatican in Italy. I've been in Greek Temples, Roman monuments and Medieval medinas. I've been to Bethlehem and I've been in the Church of the Holy Seplucher as well as the Dome of the Rock in Jersusalem. I have walked the Via Deloroso. I've seen many structures of the Roman Empire in Morocco, France, Italy and England. Different beliefs, different religions, different powers and politics.

I've seen shanty slums in deplorable condition and grand palaces filled with gold. I've visited Arabian horse stables owned by modern-day kings where the horses live better than the subjects of those countries. I've seen the historical and ancient dungeons, prisons, graveyards, tombs, crypts and sometimes even the bones of those destroyed by powers with different beliefs or politics.

Therefore, I want everyone to believe what they choose without judging others. Yes, I believe in God, but I am greatly saddened by people who punish those with different beliefs.

I believe in the goodness of the people. I believe in the natural wonders that I've seen whether those are grand vistas, oceans or the tiny flowers and creatures in my garden. I don't think a church is a physical building, I think it's our hearts.

Peace and love.

Cameron

(do I sound like an elderly hippie) LOL

Wow, Vikki, I appreciate your honesty! If that works for you, thats great. That being said, I wonder what you mean by "I am not tolerant nor do I understand how anyone can deny there is a Supreme Being."
So if someone like myself came up to you and stated that I do not believe in god, what would you do? Treat me differently because of this? I've never thought to myself that I should be intolerant of believers. I get along just fine with them, even after religious debates.
As for the second half of your statement, it is really quite easy to deny the existence of a supreme being, considering the distinct lack of evidence. It may be easy for a person who trusts in faith, but there are those of us who demand proof of a different sort. I don't think that is too much to ask.
Wow, Cameron...
You've sure been all over the place. All that post did was give me a tinge of envy.
I am enjoying this thread very much, and hope we continue to can keep it civil from here on out. Thanks, everyone.

I didn't want to create tinges of envy. I was trying to convey that it makes an impact when you walk into historical sites, learn about what happened and see the results of thousands of years of differing beliefs. My travels have made me realize that I want to accept all ideas, cultures and beliefs with an open mind. Sorry.

Cameron

Mr.M...not tolerant was a poor choice of words on my part. As a beliver in God it would be hypocritical for me to express an acceptance of anything less. In your first post you said "I guess the point is that we can all believe whatever we want as long as we remember that there are those who think differently, and to respect those beliefs(or lack thereof)." Those who killed so many on 9-11 certainly have different beliefs than most of us and I'm sure you don't respect those beliefs. Probably the worse example I could come up with but I'm just trying to make a point. As for treating non-belivers "differently" I do not. I would share my faith with you if you let me. I want all my cottage garden friends in heaven with me. God is the judge, none of us are any better than the next. As for disbelief based on the lack of evidence, consider all the things you believe in that you have no evidence for.

Okay, enough already from me.
I love you all...may God Bless you,
Vikki

Oh, such an interesting topic. Wars have been fought over it since the beginning of time. "I'm right, you're wrong. Let's go out and wipe out a few hundred thousand." Never thought I would see this topic but I'll bite.

athiest: one who denies the existence of God.

religious: 1) relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an achknowledged ultimate reality or deity, 2) relating to or devoted to religious beliefs or observances, 3) scrupulouly and conscientiously faithful.

religion: 4) a cause, principle or system of beliefs held to with ardor or faith.

Be careful proselytizing there mrmorton your faithfulness to your belifs have almost reached a religious state. :) Please keep in mind that I'm only debating. I am not saying that anyone here is right or wrong. Everyone has their own beliefs. But I love to argue and since mrmorton brought it up and made his side known by the rules of debate I have to take the opposing side. As to my own personal 'religious' beliefs, well, we won't even go there. Here's a few of my thoughts:

"As for the second half of your statement, it is really quite easy to deny the existence of a supreme being, considering the distinct lack of evidence."
Do you have evidence to support that there is not a supreme being? If if can't be proven it doesn't exist? What about if it can't 'not' be proven? Does it then indeed exist? Hmmm, would that mean that there are or are not aliens?

"Atheism is NOT a religion. A religion is based on belief, not disbelief."
Do you believe that God does not exist? If you deny that he doesn't exist then you are saying that you believe there is no God. If that is true then atheism has become a religion.

"I feel bad for a child raised in a household with conflicting beliefs, unless things are somehow worked out ahead of time. "
Do you have children? If one of them came home and said, "Dad, I've just accepted Christ in my life," what would you do? Would you respect their beliefs? Would/do you raise them to be tolerant of other people's beliefs? Do you consider children a gift? From whom?

"I grew up religious. Church, Sunday School, etc. Never liked it, but I did believe in it. I even prayed a lot. I think it was about 10 years ago when I finally came to the realization that I just don't buy it anymore. There was nothing logical or reasonable about any of it. I am now 100% certain there is no god(and never was),..."
What exactly caused you to come to this realization? What was the deciding factor in you not buying it anymore?

If you believe there is no God then do you choose the Big Bang Theory and evolution to explain how all of this came about? Is there definitive scientific proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that is how it happened?

Hmmm, I don't guess we could classify Lucifer as an atheist. Because he actually knew there was a God because he worshiped him around his throne but just thought that he was better than God. Does that just make him a plain old sinner like every other person who has turned their back on God?

Do you believe in miracles? How do you explain something that happens that there is no scientific explanation for why it happened?

Here's an interesting concept. I once asked a practicing christian (and there is a difference between a christian and a practicing christian, but that's a different topic) "What if you get to the end and you find out there is no God and you've lived all of your life serving him?" His reply, "Wouldn't you rather spend your life serving God only to find out there was no God than to spend you life not serving him only to find out there was?"

But I will tell you one thing about my beliefs. I watched my new grandson be born into this world at 12:43 last night. There is no way anyone can ever convince me that some higher power is not involved in the creation of life. Science will never be able to create something as awe inspiring as a human life. Oh, they might take cells from one that already exists and clone one. But scientists will never be able to create the original cell or whatever you want to call it from which mankind began. And that my friend is what really ticks them off and why they search frantically to try and prove that 'God' doesn't exist.
So I apologize if I have offended anyone.

Ok, I think we can all agree that anyone who performs unspeakable acts in the name of religion(such as (9/11) do not deserve our respect. I'm not sure that even had to be pointed out.
Thing is, there are millions of peace-loving Muslims out there who were probably just as appalled by that day as we were. Media sensationalism be damned, I would say MOST people of all beliefs throughout the world are good, peace-loving folks.
I'm never been one to go along with the "No one is better than anyone else" idea. I'd like to think I'm a better person than someone who goes on a killing spree, or rapes a little girl. Just like there are people better than me. Those who work to improve the lives of everyone, and make the world a better place. I'm really a rather selfish person looking out for #1, to be perfectly honest.
As for your evidence comment. I trust in those far smarter than I to figure out the ways of the world. I'd like to think that scientists who have been studying for years know a bit more about how the world works than some preacher or book of mythology. I will always side with logic and common sense.
So, no thanks on your offer. I've been there before, and it took a long time to find my out. I'm very happy with where I am, as I presume you are. Makes the world far more interesting, doesn't it?

Proud, What a GREAT response! I didn't plan on actually debating anyone, but I will respond...later. I have to do that thing called "work" every now and then.

Dear Cottagers,

Two lines from a poem I posted about gardening started this whole thing and I have been hesitant to post because it felt like an attack. I am a shy type and it is hard sometimes for me to speak up. (Other times it's not so hard.) But, I have been inspired by other believers and what they have said in this thread to speak my piece. Proudgm your post was the catalyst. You brought up some great points! I am not a debater, but DH is and he was almost ready to jump in here himself.

Yes, I am a believer in God, in Jesus, I have been since a child. I do not go to church. I have been there, done that. When I left the church, I did not turn away from my beliefs. In fact, they have become stronger through the years. I do not push my beliefs on anyone. If anyone has been to my website, they can see what I believe. GW does have rules about certain things and like Edna I hope we don't get kicked out because we are speaking up. (We did not start this topic, we are all responding.)

I also have prayed for gardeners here when they have mentioned a need for good wishes or prayers sent their way because of some problem or other. I am not going to stop saying I will remember someone in prayer, or stop talking about God in this conversation side on occasion.

I don't think we should insult or belittle others here who don't believe the same way we do. I gasped at something said to a female poster here because it was not a nice thing to say, it was downright rude, and she more or less agrees with the one who started this thread.

I also have read books on other religious beliefs and spiritual paths and there is a lot of truth in all of them.

We are all individuals. We have the ability to think and choose for ourselves how we want to live our lives. The choice is ours, right or wrong. It remains to be seen what the truth is. We cannot make people believe one way or another, it truly is an individual thing.

None of us has proof of what we believe or don't believe. For me it is a hope in the gracious and omniscient, loving God, the Creator of all things.

Each day is new. Hopefully we learn from mistakes made, and grow in kindness and honesty.

Sincerely ~ FlowerLady

I've not shared this story with too many people but I feel compelled to share it. Some of you may think I'm delusional but I know what I saw.

I had a dog that I loved so deeply. I had him from my teens well into my 20's. Catholic's don't believe animals go to heaven, I always had a problem with that belief. How could they not!? I would question the priest. "Well" he said, "Animals have no soul". I said, "Didn't he make them first in the garden of Eden and didn't he bless them before he made man? Then how could they not go to heaven."

The day my dog died I cried as anyone does when they loose some one they loved but it was coupled with knowing I'd never ever see him again. It was a profound loss for me. I cried for days.

I brought him to the vet's to have him cremated.

Two weeks later I received a call to pick up his ashes at the all night emergency clinic. It was around 9pm on a rainy evening. I got out of my truck and as I walked to the entrance a man standing outside asked me why was I so sad. I told him I was picking up my dogs ashes. He smiled at me and said, "You'll see him again". I thought how odd he is speaking to me.

There were no cars in the lot except for mine.

I proceeded into the building. I was in the reception area for less than a minute. I came out and he was gone, no way could he have walked off without me having noticed, this was a huge parking lot.

This man who spoke to me had white hair, about 50 years old, wore a light beige trench coat and had a white large dog (without a leash) standing next to him. He did not have an umbrella, neither he or his dog were wet from the rain.

Next day the Jerry Larson calendar at work had a cartoon showing St. Peter at the pearly gates in heaven with dogs climbing a ladder. The caption say 'Car chasers to the right'

Edna

FlowerLady, there is so much truth in what you say, for whatever reason we believe or not believe, we can all live our lives in a manner as to respect one and other and their beliefs, I for one haven't got it figured out yet and maybe I never will, so in the meantime I'm trying to be the best person I can.

((((((HUGS)))))) Annette

My dear cottage friends - I have a feeling that this discussion is a snowball rolling down a hill, still fairly small, but growing. At some point it may become a textbook example of why discussions of religion aren't allowed in many forums. Then again, the largely gentle personalities here may be enough to keep it civil, no matter how big it grows.

If a debate of various points enters the picture, which appears imminent, something like this can become a maddeningly frustrating exercise in trying to respond to numerous points from numerous people. Some may enjoy this kind of a swarm-debate, but I've found that it drives me nuts. That's why, except for this message, I've been staying clear of this topic. It's not that I'm not interested, or don't respect your various positions. It's just not for me.

Then again, I may be wrong, and this thread will stay sweet and friendly and peter out soon.

Regards to all, and please play nicely. :-)
ThinMan

Yup. Feels like it's only a matter of time before all he77 breaks loose and that would be a very sad thing to have here in our peaceful Cottage Garden. I hope everyone will continue to tread very carefully.
Patti

ThinMan, you give good advice. This is a thread that might do well to ride into the sunset for the good of this particular forum. I myself would certainly hate to lose a friend over this discussion. I've grown so fond of everyone here.

I think we can all agree on one thing. We all love to see something pop out of the ground and we all marvel at its beauty. Whatever that means to each individual, it's brought a rich group of people together in an extraordinary way.

Not one person here should feel unwelcome, because we're all welcome.

Steven

Flowerlady thank you for your post. I always appreciate those you speak out for their christian beliefs since those people have historically been ostracized and persecuted for their beliefs.

Todancewithwolves while I have not experienced it myself (or else been to blind to recognize it for what it was) I have heard several others stories of "mysterious strangers" that have appeared in times of need and then disappeared.

Well, mrmorton I think people have taken my "debate" questions as I sign I disagree with your views and plan on beating you into submission instead of the discussion questions that they were intended as. Since some feel that this discussion is going to get into an all out brawl with hair pulling and eye gouging with each of us trying to convert the other to our beliefs perhaps if your still up to "debate" we can continue or discussion via email. I haven't had an invigorating conversation on an interesting topic in a long time.

Even though I do not agree with a lot of things I have read on all GW posts I do keep an open mind and try to accept people without prejudice. I try not to judge people even though they have different beliefs than mine. (Sometimes my upbringing causes me to leave teeth marks in my tongue). I applaud each of you for your honesty in expressing your opinions and the apparent sincerity of your beliefs. As stated earlier I don't intend to offend anyone. I look at the posts as I do stuff on TV. If it offends me I switch channels and move on to something else. To each his own.

OK, some people are taking things I've said a bit too personally. I agree with a couple others who have suggested that this thread come to a close before any true harm comes. I never had any intention of this thread turning into a debate.
Fact is, this place is just too nice for this. I don't regret starting the topic, but I knew it would bother some of you. I understand some people don't want their beliefs challenged. I find this odd, as I am inclined to question extraordinary claims.
All this being said, I don't like leaving things hanging out there, so I will answer a few of Prouds points.

**Don't read any further if you plan on taking any of this too personally. **

I really don't want to have any kind of debate. I am terrible at such things, because I am not very scientifically minded. It's all based on what makes sense, and what doesn't.
It all boils down to this for me. I simply wonder why so many people, when faced with the origins of the world, choose to believe in an invisible, supernatural being who resides over some super-elite kingdom somewhere. Like Kent said, It all just seems so silly. It makes more sense to believe something a bit more logical first.
"Do you have evidence to support that there is not a supreme being? If if can't be proven it doesn't exist? What about if it can't 'not' be proven? Does it then indeed exist? Hmmm, would that mean that there are or are not aliens?"

A person making the claim is the one who needs to provide proof. You can't prove a negative.
Someone says "I believe god"
I say "prove that god exists"
someone responds with "prove that he/she doesn't!"
This doesn't make sense. I can say there is an invisible tiny dragon sitting on my shoulder. You can't prove there isn't, now can you? When proof shows up of gods existence I will join you all in your adoration.

We have one child. He is not a gift from anything. We created him because we wanted a child. Amazing biological stuff happened, and then there he was. We are teaching him to not just accept everything people tell you. Ask questions. Doubt. Be skeptical. I tell him that many people believe many things. If he chooses to be religious when he gets older I would be baffled, but accepting certainly.

No, I don't believe in miracles. Nothing happens for a "reason". The world just is what it is and we all happen to be lucky enough to be here. There is nothing special about humans or what we do in the overall scheme of things. Our lives are utterly meaningless when you consider the scope of the universe. Depressing, isn't it?

"Here's an interesting concept. I once asked a practicing christian (and there is a difference between a christian and a practicing christian, but that's a different topic) "What if you get to the end and you find out there is no God and you've lived all of your life serving him?" His reply, "Wouldn't you rather spend your life serving God only to find out there was no God than to spend you life not serving him only to find out there was?""

This is called Pascal's Wager. See link. Makes no sense at all.

Personally, I find religious debates pointless. Nobody convinces anyone of anything, and everyone leaves in a huff.
This was fun, though, at least for me. I'll have to think of a topic a bit less controversial to start up. Maybe about favorite color, or the great 'Tea or Coffee' debate.
; - )

Here is a link that might be useful: Pascals Wager

I suggest you take the discussion to Hot Topics. That's where it should have been posted in the first place.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hot Topics

Well, excuse me. For one, I've never heard of the 'Hot Topics' board. I Basically only visit the Cottage board. Even I DID know about I still would have posted here, as I wanted to get the thoughts of the people I've been chatting with these past couple years, not random people I don't know.
Honestly, this board can get kind of boring at times. I think it's good to inject some life into it every now and then.

really, mr. morton, if you 'find religious debates boring' why in the world did you open this can of worms? ... i rarely post, but in the past yr. since i joined gardenweb, i have become aware of your frequent postings here, and it is obvious that you enjoy this forum ...

do you honestly THINK the cottage gardeners are going to feel quite the same way about mr.morton from now on???

dontyathink you probably have cut off your nose to spite your face???

you made attempts to *not offend* your gardening buddies, but, BUT... alot of your comments had condescending & snide undertones ...

i have watched this whole thing with sadness, because i think the burr under your saddle is probably just a temporary thing ...but... just like spoken words, the printed ones can't be taken back either ...

Nah, I still think Mr. Morton's a great guy and I'll always look forward to his posts.

Steven

Honestly, this board can get kind of boring at times. I think it's good to inject some life into it every now and then.

Religion and politics are subjects that are supposed to be relegated to the Hot Topics forum. They often become heated discussions and people can get hurt, so the powers that be set up a special board. If you have an issue with it take it up with management.

Mr. Morton, someone just pointed out your blog. You obviously had an agenda when you started this thread. Shame on you!

I'm very uncomfortable with the tone here right now.

I would add that, for the record, my feelings toward MrMorton are unchanged. I think of him everytime I see my lovely waving grasses.

Patti

Please, please, please guys, let's let this go. I'm more than uncomfortable with the way this going. I'm already feeling very sorry for participating in this thread. I realize now this has been very hurtful to some and I for one am very sorry if my part has added fuel to a fire we all should have let die down some time ago. Please guys, let it go.

Annette

This thread is officially over. Honestly, I thought we were fine until Natal posted about me putting it in the wrong board. Please see my above post about that. Trust me. I had NO agenda. This was all a matter of curiosity. Religion will not play a part in my posts again. If anyone has a problem with me after this , it is THEIR problem, not mine. I Think it's alright that you know a bit more about me now. I always kind of felt like I was hiding something. You all are a great bunch of folks and I will continue to participate as I always have.