🤣 bpath, that's hilarious!!

no cats here but i solved the in/out problem years ago.

Your cat has trained you well!

Cat is not allowed to go outdoors (unless I am carrying her) after she arrived via that route and was treated for ear mites and and whatever other parasites had moved in during her first 6-ish weeks of (outdoor) life.

hobbitmom - could it be that Pooky isn’t coming to the door asking to come inside but is really asking you to come outside and be with her? My pup goes to laundry door when she wants to go out. Once we get outside often instead of tending to business she instead runs to her favorite chair & hops up & settles in but keeps her eyes on our fence line. She’s scoping things for squirrels. She just wanted to be outside. My problem is that she’s not allowed out without us. She weighs 7.5 lbs & we are in an area with lots of hawks, some eagles, roaming raccoons. So, I get my book, pull up a chair & sit a spell with her. She’s content & I get a moment of peace sitting outside in my garden. Win-win!

My three aren't allowed outside, two of them wouldn't leave if the door were wide open, but Willie manages to sometimes open the very heavy, thick old door and wooden storm door if they aren't properly latched. However, he stands frozen and goes back inside.

My door game is different. Nothing and no one is allowed in my bedroom when I go to bed. I open the door when I'm dang well ready. The cat, funnily enough, is often waiting out in the hallway. It can be 5:00 a.m. or 12:00 p.m., and she's going to sit there. I'll let her in, leaving the door cracked open, so she can get out when she wants to. She hops on the bed, snuggles close, and then about 15 minutes later she goes. But then she comes back after a few minutes. And she'll snuggle as long as I will let her snuggle. The oddest part is, if she stays for more than an hour and a half or two, on a day I feel like staying in bed, she no longer wants to sit on my legs. She will do the cat sneak up to my arm and lay on my arm? I don't understand the whole waiting for hours game when she just comes in for a few minutes and then leaves?! But that's the game we play. Animals are just funny

@KW PNW Z8 have you seen these vests that protect against predators?

Misty will do that...ask to go out and then holler at the door. She doesn't want to come in..she wants us to come out with her. If I let Mila out, then they both will wander off. If I go out, Misty follows me around like a puppy and stays with me wherever I go. She meows a lot too like I'm here! I'm here!

One time, I got tired of the in and out so I left the door propped open so they could come and go as they wanted. Worked really well until Misty came in the house with a chipmunk which she let go and then I had to catch and release the poor thing. That's when the open door ended.

Never played that game to come in, but to go out--too many times!!

Olychick - I have never seen those protective dog vests. I checked A & of course there are many with various types of protective gear. There’s even a set of huge eyes to deter raptors. The reviews are mostly positive & coyote protection is mention often. Not limited to small dogs either. Great idea!

Yes, we call our dog the ”in and out dog” just as we did our last. I guess it’s common! The best is when we’ve just let her in. We’re lounged out trying to watch something on TV. She starts moaning. Now I like when she gives a quiet woof, but the moaning just kills me. Like she’s in terminal pain. I finally get up, let her out, close the door, and she just stands there looking around.

I do like that when she wants to come in, it’s just one single bark. She may sit and wait, or she may lie down. But she’s patient. Another single bark a few minutes later if I haven’t let her in. And if I’m not letting her in for some reason, as long as I visually acknowledge her she’ll understand that she needs to wait.

Way back, our family dog would wake up my father who would crawl out of his warm bed and stumble to the door. He opened the door, but the dog stayed inside. A few seconds later the cat would come indoors.

My little Frank has a desk bell to ring when he wants to go out.

He’s not an in out in out dog. I spend a lot of time with him outside and he’s quite happy to be where I am most of the time.

When he is out on his own and wants in he just peeks in the window. Usually, he can’t bark because his mouth is full of something. He has to be thoroughly frisked before being allowed back in.

rox -I really hope that’s a stuffed toy in Frank’s mouth in the last picture! Great he learned to target touch to ring the bell to go out. Ginger, our Papillon before our current Whisper, did learn to target touch & would ring the dog bell that sat on the floor by the laundry room door but only on command. If she wanted to go out she simply sat there until one of us finally noticed her absence & would look for her & find her sitting & waiting. She’d be delighted that we finally took notice & was so happy to finaly be taken out. We then got a motion sensor that rang a bell in a receiver placed in our kitchen, Then when she’d go to the laundry door which is door through which she always went outside, the bell would signal us. Problem solved.

He has to be thoroughly frisked before being allowed back in.

i don't think this is the first time you and i have compared our franks. mine gives me definite signals that he has something in his mouth that he doesn't want me to see. head hung low, won't make eye contact, slinks by me. when it's something as blatant as a rabbit, he knows those aren't allowed to come inside so he will drop it on the deck as soon as he sees that i've noticed his treasure.

last winter on a very cold day, i saw him playing with something outside. he was having a good old time, tossing this object in the air, pouncing on it, carrying it around as if it was a prized possession. when he finally came inside, i could tell he didn't want me to see whatever was in his mouth. he knows "drop it" means NOW. he did, i gasped. apparently, he had failed to engage his single brain cell that morning...he had been playing with a frozen solid TURD!

Roast grouse for dinner Rox?

KW, it’s not a stuffed toy. It’s a Ruffed Grouse. They are very stupid birds. Our bushes are full of them. They freeze when they see you.

Frank catches them all the time. I think they play

dead, or they faint from fright. I’m not sure. Here’s one just waiting to get run over. ^^^^^

Frank learned to ring the bell when I was potty training him. We went straight to outdoor training, no peepads, or anything like that. The first month that we had him, I set an alarm, day and night, to take him outside. I started with every two hours. I spent many cold nights in our driveway, in my housecoat, waiting for him to go. I’d take him out of his crate, carry him to the door, ring the bell with his little paw, and out we’d go. It was well worth it.

LOL Lonejack!

I’m more into moose meat.

They just stand around, too.

rox, does Frank use the ’catch and release’ method? The method you used for potty training and ringing the bell is what we did too! Though Ginger was six months old when she came to us. She did grasp the concept of ringing the bell but didn’t seem to think it was necessary to use it to get the door to be opened. Papillons are one of the more intelligent dogs as well as being noted for manipulative behavior to control others.

KW, voles he will kill. Ruffed Grouse he’s forced to surrender back into the wild. If he had his way, as Lonejack said, we’d have it for dinner.

KW, I’m a strong believer in crate training, potty training. It takes a bit of effort but you only have to train once, and it’s said and done with. Everyone is happier in the end.

My daughter had a GSD that she used the same method. The only problem was that it was in the winter, so Milla learned to pee in the snow.

When summer rolled around, for the longest time, she’d seek out a snow or ice patch deep in the bush to do her business. She got it figured out. It wasn’t snow she had to pee on, anywhere outside was fine.

I remember cats bringing in mice.

Our dog, Sam-lab mix, is absolutely an in and out critter. Has to sniff the air for several minutes before he decides whether to go or back up into the house and yes, a few minutes later we play again. He stares at the door to come in and if we don't respond right away. he taps the door with his paw. I adore him. He keeps me laughing.

ps. Hobbitmom, you may appreciate his full name: Samwise the Not So Brave

So far none of mine did this. They wait to go out, stay out then wait to come in.

Adding .... cat does not like being outside of the door when I carry her for a look-see on the patio. She gazes around intently but is nervous about it and is relieved when we go back inside. She does, however, LOVE to sit at a couple strategic windows for sunbathing and fussing at birds and an occasional rabbit that passes by. She approaches the door from a side angle and observes from a couple-ish feet distance when I take her litter box out/in for scooping. I don't leave the door open during the process, of course. She usually sits in the window, watching worried and fussing a bit.

rox - I’m with you on the crate training! We had 4 small breed dogs before Papillons Ginger & Whisper each came into our lives at separate times. None of the prior 4 were crate trained. Both Papillons were / are crate trained, came to us that way & we continued the practice. It’s a good practice for so many safety reasons. We have a safety travel crate in our car too. None of this dog hanging out the windows or riding in a lap nonsense for us! Whisper loves to go for rides with us & we have her crate set up so she does have a view.. Both of them used / use sleep crates kept in our bedroom. Both were / are up on the bed with us while we read but ask to be put down in their crates when it’s time for sleep. Both came from homes with multiple dogs that were show dogs. Ginger was placed with us as a pet at 6 months old because though she was within the breed size standard this show dog owner didn’t breed females under 8 lbs. - she said it was too hard on those dogs & not right. Whisper was 5 when she came to us as a retired show dog. Ginger grew up to 4.5 lbs. We lost Ginger to a congenital liver shunt diagnosed at 9 years of age. Whisper, our current pup is 7.6 lbs. She earned Grand Champion level in shows, had one litter and was retired. No more litters. Show homes usually keep only one female & multiple males - the males having a longer breeding life. All this long story to say that I also am a strong believer in proper potty training and I’m happy to say we had success with all of our dogs. We’re strong believers in taking proper care of our animal family members & providing proper access to outdoors. Consistency and routine does the trick for them and us! No bad dogs here! 🐶

@cyn427 (z. 7, N. VA) thats a wonderful name. Pooky is the name of Garfield’s beloved teddy bear.

Back in the day, when I was a kid, dogs could run free through the neighborhood. But there came a time when they had to be tied up so we had a long cable that went from the back door to the patio. Our dog, Charlie, a spaniel beagle mix that we got from a rescue as a puppy, would go to the door. My mom would come and open the door and get the cable. He would stand inside, poking his head out trying to decide if he really wanted to go out. She would lose patience with him in winter and say "Charlie, either in or out. You are heating up all of Mt. Airy".

Lacey, my new toy poodle dog that I got from a rescue in November, doesn't ask to go out, yet. She lived with a foster for 6 months after her owner went into a nursing home. I don't think she was ever walked in her original home and the foster had 10 other dogs in stages of medical hospice so there wasn't any real routine. So I started housetraining her as if she were 8 weeks instead of 7 years. She is doing pretty good but not 100% yet. I take her out regularly, just in the yard first thing in the morning and last thing at night, but the rest of the day we take actual walks in the neighborhood. It all helps.

Oh KW for sure!

I must admit though, Frank is seldom in a crate now.

He has an elevated seat, his throne, when he rides in the vehicle. And he does sleep on our bed. His crate is on the floor with the door removed and he can go into it whenever he wants. Sometimes, when we have a lot of company, and he’s feeling overwhelmed, or just plain tired, he’ll go sleep in it. A crate is not a bad thing to him.

I think that all pets need to be crate trained for their own safety.

Horses need to learn how to climb into a trailer. I’d hate to be the person trying to evacuate an animal in an emergency, or with an injury and not having them crate or trailer trained.

@murraysmom Zone 6a OH IMHO you’re doing it exactly the right way to house train little Lacey. Consistency and routine - that’s all that’s needed! We weren’t sure about Whisper’s potty habits when we got her at 5 years old. The person we got her from included a potty pad with transition supplies. I didn’t know if it was for just in case or a routine use & in the moment I neglected to ask. We still have that pad on a shelf in garage so it never got used. We’d seen videos of Whisper in her home environment before we met her so had a sense of how her life was lived. It seemed like a good quality but there were multiple Papillons so also very busy & each dog had its own crate. We thought toilet needs might have been managed by letting all the dogs out & then letting them all back in. Who can keep track of which one did what with 6-7 of these busy beavers zooming around? We set a routine and didn’t give Whisper free run of our house for a couple of months until we were sure of her ability to alert us to go out. 2.5 years later I’m happy to say she’s never had an in house accident. Her method of alerting us to a need to go out that’s off her usual schedule is to sit in a certain spot and stare hard at me until I feel that stare & look at her. Doesn’t take long. When I ask the question - do you want to go out? she leaps into action twirling around, barking & play bow posing. It’s obvious the answer is YES!

rox - I didn’t think about horses & loading them but of course you’re right! My sister & I had a pony when we lived in MT - my birthplace. My dad taught us to load him into his trailer - we took him to participate in the local saddle club rodeo and summer parades. He was a great barrel racer! He learned that skill before we got him. I just hung on for dear life! We were heartbroken when we had to rehome him when I was 12 & we moved to Ketchikan, AK for my dad’s work.

Dog crates - we had to shut the door on Whisper’s crate during the day to keep her out of it & stay around us. She had quite the adjustment to make with her new life. It didn’t take too long before we could leave the door open during the day & now she pokes her head in to check it out sometimes. She is very bonded to me & only chooses to follow my husband when I’m not home. I do have him feed about half her meals to her because of that - just in case she’s left permanently with him as her only human. 😬

KW, even though they are completely different breeds, these two could be twins!!! LOL

I considered changing Lacey's name to Twirl. She doesn't respond to Lacey anyway and Twirl describes her to a T.

Her situation at the foster is exactly as you experienced with the breeder. The foster would open the back door and anyone caring to go out could do so. Into a fenced backyard. I don't think there was any policeing of who was doing what. And since the other dogs were in medical hospice, I suspect most of them didn't worry about asking to go out. I think the fosters just had a lot of "clean up in aisle 3" going on constantly. I remember she said to me that she was so happy to have Lacey as a foster because she was a "normal" dog. Lacey spent her time on the foster's lap, in the recliner, even to sleep. She also wore dresses every day. That stopped the moment I brought her home. LOL She is crate trained and doesn't mind being crated but she now has run of the house and sleeps in my bed with me. We have a good routine to follow every day. She's quirky, cute and a lot of fun. She gets the zoomies every now and then and really the only thing she does is play games with me when I want to pick her up. She runs and twirls in excitement. It takes a minute to catch her and get her harness on to leave for a walk. She is so sweet and bonded to me. I love her. Interestingly enough and I'm sure it comes from living with 10 other dogs, but she is not afraid of dogs at all. She has met all the neighbor dogs, big and small and has no problems with them. But people are another thing. She is skittish and shy around them. Usually if it is someone I do want her to meet, I just pick her up and when I am holding her and she is eye level, she is just fine with being petted.

One neighbor who loves her dearly, comes down and sits with her (and me) and we visit. She talks to Lacey in a low soft voice and can have her on her lap without a fuss. And when we are out taking a walk and she sees Dianne, she just trots right to her with her tail in the air. I just love that. Bottom line is I really lucked out in getting a fun, smart dog!!

murraysmom - Lacey sounds like she has a wonderful and sweet personality. Interesting that she’s so playful if her original owner was not well enough to play with her. Maybe that wasn’t life long state though. Do you know if Lacey is her original name or if the foster home named her? You could try teaching her the command ”hold it”. That makes Whisper stop in her tracks & wait for me to do something. I say it often when she’s moving around too much as I’m grooming her or needing to get harness on. Another command is ”pick up”. Say it & she comes & stands next to me in a stance to be picked up. Very handy & it gives her warning she’s going to be picked up - saves being startled. Both commands were taught by original owner & are necessary for show ring behavior. What Whisper didn’t know is obediance commands of sit/down/stay. She does now. She also didn’t walk next to me on a leash but instead wanted to be prancing along in front of me often looking back at me over her shoulder. That’s the show ring walk. The walking position took awhile to change but the sit/down/stay took moments to train. Smart dogs!

Thanks, KW. I'm thinking that Whisper is way better trained than Lacey is/was. It is her original name. I was lucky to get her whole history, vet visit wise and her name is on the paperwork. There was a second dog, a mutt, named Maizie. She must have gotten adopted right away. I got the impression that no one ever asked Lacey to do or learn anything. What a squirrel. She has learned to wait when a car comes by when we are walking. She is certainly capable of learning but she is a stubborn one. I give her treats when she potties outside and I have tried to get her to sit but she refuses. She does a very cute stands on her back legs and paws the air to beg for people food. That is how she got pancreatitis at some point either right before or while she was in foster care. When I first met Lacey and was talking with the foster, the husband told me how much she loves braunschweiger!!! It's no wonder she got pancreatitis. I must say that she doesn't bother me any more when I am eating. She sticks to her dog food, which is Biome canned food to keep her hydrated and regular. It smells really good and she does like it, so that's a plus. No kibble because she does have some missing teeth.

She is doing much better when taking a walk. At first she just wandered from one side of the street to the other, not paying any attention but interested in everything. A funny thing happened yesterday. As she was walking down the neighbor's driveway which connects to mine, a chipmunk ran not 6 inches from her nose. She didn't even bother to look at it. I'm glad she doesn't want to chase squirrels and rabbits. They can sit in the backyard and she will completely ignore them. She is a work in progress. :)

I’ve still got the crate in the kitchen. Door hasn’t been open in years. It kind of hides the sheetrock she destroyed through it, so I’m just being lazy. Wonder if she’d go in. It’s in the back corner behind the kitchen table, and she does sometimes go back and hide under the table when she’s in trouble.

We tried to crate train her at first. But she seemed used to pooping in her crate from shelter life, so she’d wait until she was in her crate to poop. The constant baths got old, cleaning up the tile floor easier. Next time I’ll read a book. My dogs seem to self train in many ways, but I’ll admit housebreaking takes us far too long.

FOAS, is her name Dickens? As in, what a dickens she is?

This dog of mine is the first to be crate trained and I didn't do it, so I guess I am in your boat when it comes to that.