Thanks Salonva - your link worked for me.

Off to try it on America's Test Kitchen!

In the past I was sometimes late (sometimes early) because some medical issues as well as long distance and unpredictable traffic/construction made it very challenging.

For the past decades, I’ve tended to run early. With anything like a medical appointment, I just let them know that I know I’m fairly early. As Lily points out, sometimes I get taken early. I have had medical practitioners accommodate me when they are booked solid and I have had a quasi emergency. I’m also willing to be taken later than expected. I think it’s difficult in medical or dental settings for practitioners to run a strict clock.

When you are expecting me to explain, encourage, take responsibility for getting you to meet me on time you are making your lack of civility my fault. That is judgy mental straight up. I respect other people's time. When I say I will be there I am. Dont ask me for some imaginary time that you dont actually plan to meet though. It sounds harsh to those who have been taking advantage all their lives but I am not the problem. I dont expect to have to act like your mom or somehow I am at fault. Do you see how that works? Everyone knows that things happen. We can have slides on our road or downed trees. And some of those areas have ratty cell service. I would call as soon as I could. It is civility. It is valuing others. Because I am seldom late no one doesn't believe me.

patriciae

I got the subscribers only block too, but I think I read that article, or something similar, not that long ago.You cannot assume that everyone is operating with the same abilities, especially nowadays. There are plenty of people who lack executive function, when it comes to things like time management - people with ADHD especially, along with brain trauma.

And it can also be a harbinger of dementia.

One of my sisters is chronically time blind. She has a thyroid condition that I think affects her executive function in that regard. She's has missed a flight because she wanted to stop and get a muffin. When I'm with her, I try never to let her stop at a store for 'just a minute' because it will almost certainly become at least an hour 😄

It's funny because her work involves plenty of deadlines, and she is pretty successful, but a writing deadline isn't the same as getting somewhere at a specific time. She is also a sweet, lovely person.

That said, I refuse to get myself tied up in knots emotionally because I'm running late - or berating someone for not hurrying enough. Nothing is worth sacrificing my mental well-being, my relationships, or possibly having a wreck rushing there. I'd rather call or text to say I'm running a bit behind, etc.

Interesting, carolb.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks that being on time is different from other manifestations of being irresponsible.

"Oh, couldn't pay the mortgage this month, I had to stop on the way home yesterday to buy a full leather outfit"

"Oh sorry, family member, I made plans for your birthday I can't change. I must have forgotten about it or maybe didn't write it down, I'm not sure."

carol, I'll save words I would use to describe your sister but they aren't complimentary. Mature adults don't act as you describe her.

You know those commercials where the rushed and harried family scarfs down two bites of their breakfast and bolts out the door in a typical morning frenzy? Ummm, Im always thinking that getting up a little earlier can solve this business.

I regularly read and post on chatty social media like KT.

My time is highly valuable.

Please help me reconcile these two sentences. 🙂

I’m half joking. But only half. We obviously spend a good amount of time behind our screens. Some mentioned getting to the doctor early and playing on their phone while waiting for appointments. Can’t you the same while waiting for a friend, without getting all bent out of shape?

Speaking of doctors, the pandemic taught me that rhey don’t need to run so behind schedule. It was pretty amazing, I’d make an appointment, arrive a couple minutes early, call in, and while I would just start to get settled in my car I’d be called in. I actually have less patience with doctors now!

I am a chronically early person. If I arrive exactly on time, I feel like I'm late. The thought of being late stresses me out. I find the time between when I arrive and the requested time to be a calming interval.

I joke, but I was late once for school, in 2nd grade. I was late only because I waited for a friend who was running late. When my parents learned of the lateness ( remember how it was recorded on our report card>) they couldn't understand how I could be late.

I don't think I've ever been late again.

I do think people are wired a certain way and I also think that as food mentioned, it's often real inability to judge time, distance, etc.

edited to be INABILITY vs IN ABILITY.

So a lot of people here have bought into the idea that my expectation of your being on time is some sort of glitch in me. They have a reason. I am judgmental. Their vagaries are forgivable but my expectations are not. My time in other words is not important. Your favorite family member who uses you are just who they are. They cant help being selfish and disorganized. It is not their fault. My expectations on the other hand are. Do you hear yourself. Do you wonder that they dont do better? Narcissism. Self interest. Dont rock their boat. They have issues. It sounds judgmental because it is. If I can ignore your needs why would I not?

patriciae

" Please help me reconcile these two sentences "

Easy. Do my actions affect only myself and my time, or does what I do or don't do affect others?

If you were referring to me, I'm now retired and other than obligations and commitments to others that are relatively much reduced in number, I have the freedom to spend my time as I choose with the uncommitted time. During the much larger percentage of my life when I was working, my time was not my own, I had multiple time commitments TO OTHERS throughout every day and anyone who wasted MY time wound up wasting other people's time too. Because I was in a competitive profession and nearly every client thought their time and needs were more important and should be a greater priority than mine or anyone else's, I could not risk having what could be perceived as unpunctual habits for meetings or work product completions. Doing so would have resulted in my losing business. Something I couldn't afford to have happen, from both a job performance eval basis and also from a personal compensation basis.

A client of mine who manufactured industrial products had some words painted on the wall of the corridor leading to the HQ cafeteria. Something to the effect of:

"It often takes months or even years of hard work and teamwork to build a reputation strong enough to create a loyal customer relationship. Yet it can take only a few minutes of the wrong words or actions at the wrong time to lose that trust and that customer. Remember that strong customer relationships are hard to earn and easy to lose. Be someone who helps us earn more."

" So a lot of people here have bought into the idea that my expectation of your being on time is some sort of glitch in me. "

Not me. I'm happy to agree with you.

I have a cousin who is late for everything. She still works and I often wonder how she stays employed. She has actually been fired because she can't get to work on time.

When we occasionally meet for lunch, she is always late. Anywhere from a half hour to an hour. I got tired of showing up on time and then sitting there waiting for her. She will tell me she needed to walk her dogs. I suggested she walk her dogs a half an hour before she needs to leave her house.

The last time she was 45 min late. I texted her and told her that I was leaving, and we would meet up another time. She texted back and said she was almost there, so I waited. When she arrived, I told her that in the future I wouldn't wait more than 15 min. So if she's rushing to meet me, and she's more than 15 min late, to just turn around and go home, because I won't be there. Surprisingly, this has helped her to not be late when meeting me. So I know she has it in her to be on time if/when she needs to. I'm not sure why she couldn't do it to prevent being fired from a job.

Food, it sounds like you want people to understand and give you a pass when you're late. You shared examples of all the things you miss out on by being late. That is too bad you miss out on so much. But if you and I are meeting, and you're consistently late, and because I may have other things to do after we've met, your being late cuts into the time you and I have. When my cousin shows up late, it reduces the amount of time we have. Hardly makes it worth the time I've spent driving to get somewhere to meet her.

I think people need to take responsibility for their own actions, and reduce their expectations to consistently be given a pass. I used to give my cousin a pass, but it's chronic with her. and when I set some boundaries - I'm not waiting any more than 15 min, she miraculously was able to arrive within that 15 min window.

Patricia - If I had a friend who I know would get upset at me for being late, I’d try to go out of my way to be punctual for them. I’d consider it a quirk but I’d try to accommodate their quirk just like I’d work around other quirks they may have if I valued their friendship.

In a society where liberalism and progressivism has us not only making every excuse under the sun for people’s malfunctions but also jamming those excuses down each other’s throats, my issue with you is not your intolerance for tardiness, but that you reduce this personality trait (or flaw) to narcissism. If you read the article, some of this is personaility, and in some cases it’s cultural.

It’s also very circumstantial, at least in my opinion. Being a half hour late to pick someone up to go shopping is very different than being a half hour late to pick them up at the train station. Hopefully those who tend to be late can pull it together when it’s important, and perhaps punctual types can lighten up a bit when it’s less critical.

sephia - No, I’m not looking for a pass for being late. i’m not even as regularly late anymore. What I’m asking is that within reasobable tolerances, lighten up a bit. I’d imagine most of us have rather similar ideas with what’s reasonable and acceptable, and the situation with your cousin was outside of range IMO. The only reason I bothered to post was because of the accusation of narcissism. A few steps too far for my taste.

When you decide that the expectations of a friend that you actually show up at the agreed time is a "quirk" you are exemplifying the concept of narcissism or for the simplistic, self absorption. You reserve for your self the measure of what is a reasonable expectation for YOU. To think that their expectations for YOU is jamming things down your throat is narcissism. I am sorry to be the barer of bad news. My intolerance for tardiness is not the issue here. It is your reserving to yourself the right to decide what is tolerable is the issue. I know this is a hard one for you. You are reserving for yourself the right to decide what is or is not is important. Have you considered your acquaintance might have standards of their own? Not important to you? How about if they have a limited amount of THEIR time they can devote to YOU and you have blown off a big chunk. Here is a person who values you but.........

sorry.

patriciae

When a good part of society can be on time, who has the quirk? The person who is habitually late and expects others to cater to them, or the person who is on time? A quick Google search says approximately 15-20% of the population is chronically late. Being that most of society can be on time, I would say the chronically late people have the quirk for not being able to be on time being they are in the minority.

The fatal flaw in your argument is that if I were a narcissist deeming my own time more important than others’, then I’d be holding them to a higher standard with regards to how they treat my time. And I don’t. I accept that in many cases there’s reasonable lattitude to be given.

And I bet you do, too, whether you’ll admit it or not. If a friend says they’ll pick you up for shopping at noon and they show up at 12:01, would it cross your mind that they’re rudely late? How about 12:02? 12:03? 12:05? 12:10?

Where’s your line? If 12:01 offends you because a minute of your time was wasted and they should have taken care not to be so disrespectful of your time, then the question becomes exactly who is the narcissist here.

If you give any allowance at all for being a few seconds or minutes late, then you’re doing exactly what you’ve accused me of doing.

Not sorry.

Oh food, you're stooping now. No one thinks being late by a couple minutes is being 'rudely late.' Most people I know have a grace period of like 20 minutes.

Maybe you aren't aware of it, but people I know have lower opinions of people who are chronically late. I know I get annoyed when I think about meeting my cousin, and thinking she's going to be late again.. She annoys the rest of the family too. But we've solved the problem by just carrying on without her. She is with the rest of the family in Philadelphia for the holiday, and they had plans to visit the Philadelphia Museum of Art today. They had timed entrance tickets so needed to be there on time. My cousin dawdled around, and despite them saying they needed to leave, she took her time getting dressed. So they left without her, and she missed a fun time that she was looking forward to. She was an art/history major so was looking forward to the outing. But with timed tickets, if you're not there on time, you miss gaining entrance. The rest of the family wasn't going to miss out because of her.

“Most people I know have a grace period of like 20 minutes.”

Great, sounds like we’re about on the same page then. I hereby pass the torch to you should you care to argue the point with Patricia who seems to decry subjectivity here.

I was raised to respect other peoples time. They are taking their time to meet up with me as I am with them and I respect them so that I am on time and hopefully they respect me and do the same. My time is no less or more valuable than theirs. It is a very simple matter of respect.

My period of grace is 10 minutes unless I hear otherwise.

My mother in law was always late and that was simply pure narcissism. My DH used to be always late as well and no matter what little hint I would drop nothing changed him until his boss on his yearly review, docked him a full category for job performance because of it.

My DH didn't understand why I sided with his boss instead of him and then the tough heart-to-heart discussion happened around respect and he hasn't been late since. This was decades ago.

Foodonastump - As far as I'm concerned your arguments are being used only to justify your own lateness.

"Foodonastump - As far as I'm concerned your arguments are being used only to justify your own lateness."

Interestingly, my cousin often uses the same arguments to explain/justify her lateness. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. I'm not waiting.

blfenton welcome to the arbitrary grace period club!

" Being a half hour late to pick someone up to go shopping is very different than being a half hour late to pick them up at the train station "

No, they're very much the same. 30 minutes is 30 minutes. Why would you think it's different, or that how you see it is how others do or should see it?

If I can inconvenience myself and make an effort to show my respect for you by being on time, you can return the gesture. If you can't be bothered to do so, I won't waste any time with you. No excuses accepted or pardons granted for repeat offenses.

Think hypothetically of someone who insists on always eating in a restaurant with their hands and fingers and not tableware, always sneezes without covering their nose and mouth, always make plans for what they want to do, that includes you, without asking what you'd like to do. All of these are rude and disrespectful.

food, you seem to be clinging tightly to a notion that the aberration is not YOUR view but rather what's wrong is what several people have expressed. Timeliness is not an obscure and useless, situationally variable expectation. It's something most adults expect and pay attention to, for themselves and in others. And try to achieve.

It doesn't work the way you think it should. It really doesn't.

Oh, and PS -

Except for dinner guests at my house, I call at the 15 minute mark. As above, repeat offenders with lame excuses get sent to the penalty box for an indeterminant period. A long one.

This discussion made me think of an article I read about time and memory, and the idea that time isn't necessarily linear, as most people like to believe.

And it also reminded me of a long ago RadioLab episode about time, and how before trains, and the need for official time, many places ran on their own times.

We created the concept of time. So who's to say what being 'on time' really means, after all?

Aside from theoretical concepts like relativity, when is time not linear?

Back before when time was "standardized" regionally and nationally, each location could have its own time because there was no need for exact time in an absolute sense. But, time in a relative sense for those locations and people in each still existed and on time was on time and late was late.

I think time is factual, a physical reality, not just a human creation, per se. How it's used or seen can vary, as experienced in this discussion. But it's not like there's not a prevailing view about timeliness.

“food, you seem to be clinging tightly to a notion that the aberration is not YOUR view but rather what's wrong is what several people have expressed. Timeliness is not an obscure and useless, situationally variable expectation. It's something most adults expect and pay attention to, for themselves and in others. And try to achieve.”

Perhaps, but that’s generally not been my experience in my adult life. Which leads me to suspect that people are clinging to their ideals more than reality. If I invited people over for dinner at 6 and everyone showed up at 6, I’d be rather surprised.

And honestly, if you’re cramming me into your busy schedule I’d just as soon you reschedule. I met a friend out for brunch a couple weeks ago. We wanted to do something briefly after, but table service was slow so he ended up saying Part 2 would have to wait for another time. I mean, it was great to see him but I’d have preferred to just get together when he didn’t have to look at his watch.

" if you’re cramming me into your busy schedule I’d just as soon you reschedule. "

Here's the thing - if I've made room in a truly busy schedule to see you (whether my choice or yours), and you're late, I may not reschedule it unless I needed to act deferentially to you OR if you had a decent reason for being late. If that factor isn't present, or we were friends or on par with one another, I'd ask when we could schedule it when you could be on time because (with the premise you created of my having a busy schedule), I wouldn't be happy wasting multiple time slots on you simply because you gave little priority to being on time.

I think I've asked this question before and sorry if you answered and I've forgotten - is whatever college and/or job training and experience you've had in a technical or engineering field?

I was a watchmaker.

I guess specializing in watches that couldn't keep good time? Business was slow?

LOL, FOAS. That’s a great job. You make your own hours, and have a lot of time on your hands. 😄

Time out! Everyone needs to wind down a bit here.

If you can be there at some point, you can be there on time

In my circle of friends we do a lot of meeting up "ish." Come to dinner Friday, bring nothing, how is 6 ish? It means let's shoot for 6 and if you show up at 6:20 it's not a big deal. We don't use that time reference if we have a reservation or tickets to something, but parties, entertaining at home, meeting up for something else, none of us are strict on time. Maybe it's being retired and being done with strict hours? IDK but I love it. If I say 6ish for dinner at my house, better not show up at 5:45, but if you do, you'll find the door unlocked and I'll be upstairs in the shower. Down in a minute!

I put an end to a friendship of about 7 years due to always waiting on my friend. It just got too frustrating. No matter the science, the bottom line is it is disrespectful. Now in a group that we are both in, she is still late, big entrance. We are cordial but never do anything together anymore. Not worth it to me.

This is one of those things where I hold myself to a higher standard than I do others. I can't stand being late. It really bothers me. I leave early if I have to be somewhere at a specific time.

How annoying I find someone else's lateness really depends on the situation. If it is a group thing, it barely registers. But don't leave me standing on the side of the road waiting for an agreed-upon ride please! 😄

Also, I am pretty sure FOAS is messing with us. If he was a watchmaker, then I am Stephen Hawking. 🤣

Foas answer was a great response to a rudely invasive question. I laughed out loud!

I can be slow. I tend to take people at face value and so it took me a minute. 😄

Very punny, Ally! 🤠

OK, I didn't read the article, and I've skimmed the comments. I don't see one factor that applied to some of the 'late commers' I've known. I'll use a former neighbor to illustrate.

'Janet' and 'Bob' were part of our group of young-ish parents in a small subdivision. Our kids were the binding factor, and the adults entertained one another casually. We always waited for Janet. Bob would arrive on time, but Janet could be a hour late, groomed to the teeth -- overly elaborate hairstyles and makeup and over-dressed for the casual gathering. Once at the gathering, she was fine, but you could read the anxiety in her like a flashing light.

Janet was a lovely, sensitive person. She was also painfully insecure. She was late because she had to force herself to come at all. Bob had learned to just accept her and leave her to finally make an appearance as best she could. (I never felt that he forced her or critisized her.)

Ha - Hubby's a drummer, so timing is his thing. He gets stressed over the possibility of being late - even when it doesn't matter!

" we do a lot of meeting up "ish."

I think this is something entirely different.

If the discussed and agreed timing among your group for certain meet-ups is x:00 time, more or less, not a fixed time, that's one thing. If two people have something scheduled and in the absence of it having been discussed, one person assumes "normal" punctuality is the expectation and the other person doesn't conduct themself that way as a default, there will be a misunderstanding. A needless one.

If your group made these plans - "a quick bite to eat. We meet up at the restaurant at 6:00pm, reservations have been made, and then we go across the street to a movie that starts at 7:10", I suspect the "ish" practice wouldn't apply. Would that be unclear to anyone?

I'm not sure why you think you need to 'splain - you just repeated exactly what I wrote?

Because you 'splaining wasn't clear. Plus, I like to give you opportunities to try to be rude. You are so very predictable.

I will admit to not reading you comment thoroughly. Some people's words are hard to follow and that's what I do in such cases.

Oh, and this diversion has nothing to do with what you mentioned, people who have a shared understanding of the anticipated timing. The topic being discussed when two people who were meeting did not have a shared understanding and the person often late being a bit agitated about it. Which was ironic.

If you just would completely ignore my posts it would be so much easier on you. I never comment on yours except when you've singled me out. Try that!

Sorry I’ve taken so long to get back to this thread. Stuff came up and I’m running behind.

Anyway, I just want to reiterate that my primary objection here and what drove me to post was the accusation of lateness being narcissistic. Narcissism is a severe personality disorder, and to accuse someone of that simply based on habitual lateness is extremely inappropriate in my opinion. Calling lateness selfish might be more fitting in some cases.

When I thought about this thread again this morning, I realized that my time management issues primarily affect me, not others, and even then it’s rarely a significant issue. I’ll think of five errands I think I can get done in the next two hours before I need to be somewhere, and if I underestimate the time needed and only get four done, oh well. If I had accurately estimated I’d only get four done, then I’d still only get four done!

Several people here, including those who were disagreeing me, expressed an allowance for a certain amount of leeway. That’s all I’m asking for, and is also what I’ll allow others. And I still think the circumstances matter. Getting to work, getting to a meeting, meeting friends to go to a show, these are very time dependent. Going out for dinner and drinks, no reservations involved, don’t stress yourself out.

Olychick's "ish" comment was perfectly clear to me. It was clear, conversational, personal, concrete and easy to relate to with a little humor. She described "ish" exactly as I do in practice .

The plagiarized version was long and wordy reading like a technical manual, and took something simple, and complicated the stolen words, often done by a pseudo-intellectual for the purpose of gaining status. I rarely read many of his posts because it's a common occurrence from this guy.

It both ran for class president Olychick would win in a landslide, most likely 100% to zero.

off topic. Elmer what did you actually do for a living, and it can be described with your usual long complicated style if you'd like. I'm also wondering how many times it took you to pass the GED test if you ever did pass? I'd also like to know what degrees your fake doctor account has.

I think my daughter would think I was on the slim side of forgiving when it comes to being late/waiting. I see now, I am the fair side. I don't blink an eye when I have to wait 15 minutes, and takes me 30 minutes before I even begin deciding if I should leave without her or not. All of that is for social reasons. Work? I give her five minutes (we're sharing a car right now), and then I say, step on it! And she does. It's amazing to me the gamut of answers here. 10 minutes-hour. Wonder where most of us fall on the spectrum of grace period? It interests me, nothing more.

Food, I was not using narcissism in its toxic clinical sense and should have said so. Sorry about that I think the softer self absorption or some such is a better explanation but occasionally it really is narcissism with some people.

Since no one else is inconvenienced it hardly matters if you try to do five things but only have actual time for four unless that fifth thing was an important thing to someone else. The clue here is the recognition that someone's expectations for you does not exemplify cramming something down your throat. That is my actual point. That is the problematic thing. My expectation that you respect my time is hardly some sort of vicious trait of mine. I am fairly relaxed about time when it doesnt matter but you did say it was my fault to not make sure you knew it was "important" for you to be on time. See how that sounds? How self centric that is? Then you would make more of an effort. Ahem...You understand the concept of making an effort.

I have known a few people who simply have no sense of time. I wouldn't think of including a souffle in my dinner menu if I were inviting them.

Whether or not time is real, and we do all experience time differently and that is age related as well, time for children is certainly a longer time than for old people but we have invented this measurement system based on the earth spinning all the way round and other vagaries about definable periods like how long it takes the earth to go around the sun. It is a useful conceit. When people respect the system we are less likely to fight about it.

patriciae

I was raised by my parents to believe:

Arriving early is on time

Arriving on time is late