Real rye bread will keep well for quite a few days. If you can, get one from a bakery.

Yes it will keep. DH makes it all the time. He will leave it out on a cutting board. It is good at retaining its moisture.

patriciae

Thanks. I will see if the chain bakery has any left (it’s getting late in the day). Otherwise I will try grocery store bakery. If not, it might be aisle five.

It’s a lovely balmy day and I would love to clean upthe yard, garden, plant peas, greens. But I must make things and bake/cook for tomorrow. Isn’t this the way things go so often in New England or northern climes? wehave had so many rainy, soggy and cold days. Now, a lovely day, but I my time is committed to other work.

The last few medical appointments I’ve made, for months ahead, I have said the the scheduling staff, that I don’t want any more appointments on good weather days. Work something out with the gutted NOAA.

patriciae, would you DH be willing to share his recipe?

We are going to a Ukrainian Easter dinner.

Thanks so much, nicole. I may try to make some. A call to Panera resulted in them informing DH that they no longer offer rye bread in our location. And, in fact, from a news article a few months ago, Panera par-bakes all their breads elsewhere, then ships them to their retail stores for the finish bake.

As far as I know, there is no other ”bakery” around. (I could drive a few towns away; and one bakery 30 plus minutes one way says it does offer their breads for sale at a couple of local places —a health food store, a farm store and a grocery store. That’s good, although I am not sure if that ever includes rye bread.

PS There was an interesting article some time back in one of the ”Edible (city)” magazines about a very industrious young woman who works full or part time and then with her extra enterprising energy she bakes various delicious breads for a growing private customer list. Her breads must be ordered ahead and, IIRC, fetch about $15 (US) per loaf.

That sounds like a lot for my budget, but perhaps not for many others. Thinking about it now, it might be a good deal. I believe it is organic bread.

Of coursesome folks love the mixing, kneading and baking of bread. Others are busy or not interested in the process, but appreciate a well-turned loaf. Good for her and wonderful for her customers.

Patriciae's recipe looks like what I would call Pumpernickel because of the cocoa and molasses. I make both rye and pumpernickel breads, and my rye bread has brown sugar but not molasses. My pumpernickel also has coffee in it but otherwise is very close to Patriciae's recipe for rye bread, and it does contain cocoa, which is what makes it dark.

I add extra caraway seeds and grind them and soak them in the water first, so that they will be less likely to cut the gluten strands in the bread dough.

Lars, great idea about softening the caraway seeds before including them.

Authentic Russian rye bread uses a sourdough starter. Cocoa and molasses in recipes is used to mimic or enhance the flavor sourdough starter. Russian rye is not sweet. Any sweetener used is used to balance the flavors of caraway and slightly sour. The link to the recipe Nicole posted is a good one. Rye bread is basic. No fancy recipes fixing what ain't broke needed. It keeps well because of it's density and simplicity. After all, rye and many "artsy fartsy" foods we eat today came from peasants who used what was on hand and would keep well from economic necessity.

Rye bread with what I consider a familiar traditional flavor seems to have gone out of style. I'm sure recipes and ingredient ratios vary and the results can be not entirely this or not entirely that. For me, it's the flavor, not the color, that makes a rye bread distinctive. I agree with lars, traditional rye bread is not dark. It can be but I too have thought of that as leaning in the pumpernickel direction.

Not being a baker and so relying on what I can buy, even some "rye bread" made by better boutique bakeries or sold in a deli seems to be unlikely these days to have a flavor I prefer. We did happen upon a small bakery about 35 minutes away, in an area we go to every so often but not regularly, that has rye bread we like. We always pick up a loaf when we're nearby. There isn't a particularly large presence in my area of people with Slavic ancestry but I suspect in advance of the holiday, they've sold a lot of rye bread. Yum, ham on rye.

Thanks wildchild2x2 and others.

Yay, peasants!

I scoured around looking for bakeries and thought I’d have to drive to northern California or to New Jersey. DH ran errands and found the last remaining loaf of rye. I have no idea if it’s light or dark, with or without seeds.

It’s 82 deg F and not one patch of snow or ice has the temerity to stick around.

Too bad I didn’t think ahead for some jelly beans and chocolates. Peeps are fun to look at but they taste like school glue to my palate.

The bread is a slow rise sourdough with these ingredients.

I looked around gardenweb and elsewhere and discovered a whole lot of delicious looking bread recipes, including many for rye.

Dark rye is rye flour with the bran left on. The rye bread that DH bought appears to be light in color.

In retro-sorta-spect, I might have just made some dill-cottage cheese bread. Very easy.

I’ve even made it as a spiral loaf. No knead. I recently located the recipe after having misplaced it for a while. Recipe says, ”2 teaspoons dill weed” bit I did not note whether dry or fresh. Most recipes use dried. I often change recipes and am pretty sure I often used fresh dill leaf. But then I would likely have used more. Does dried dill have any flavor? I seem to recall my bread, especially the spiraled, having some green to it. But, I also have not made it for 30 years.

A local bakery, Gayle's, makes it fresh every day and is my DH's favorite. It gets eaten very quickly so don't have to worry about going stale.

That's the one I had in mind, caflowerluver!. In Capitola. It's delish. We always stop to get one when we're down there or passing by to/from Monterey.

Edit to add:

We put it in the fridge after a few days. It's a much larger than normal loaf and without doing so, we can't finish it fast enough to avoid mold appearing.

Me giving a recipe would be useless. DH has his sourdough starter made from whole grapes a long time ago. He buys grains and processes them with grinders and mills. We have a really useful flour mill I found at a thrift store over on Whidbey Island that came from Germany(military people stuff) IT IS AMAZING. Anyway everything is from scratch literally and I have nothing to do with it as I do not like rye. I am perfectly capable of making good bread and make all the fancy stuff like Brioche or puff pastry, butter rolls and such stuff but he loves doing it. I beg for normal bread but he cant resist putting some sourdough and rye in it. I suffer.

patriciae

patriciae, I will be happy to take on your suffering. Good rye bread (with lots of caraway seeds) is one of my favorite things. There are some passable loaves around here, but when I go to NYC I try to get to Zabar's for the real thing.

I had no idea Gayle’s sold rye bread, as we’re partial to sourdough. Which, Ive come to realize, the rest of the country doesnt seem to make (to sell in stores.) Dd in nyc buys it from WF when she lucks into a loaf, but doesn't think it tastes the same as what we get here in San Jose.

Petalique, im glad your dh found the last loaf around! And thanks for the memory of the A & P (Seattle).

Refrigerating bread is the worst thing you can do to it. If you’re worried about mold, you should freeze it. Reefrigerating bread causes it to stale faster than even just leaving it out on the kitchen bench. Here’s a Serious Eats article explaining why:

What happens when you refrigerate bread?

I have great respect for Serious Eats. Kenji often refers to work of the author of that article, Daniel Gritzer, and obviously treats him as a kindred spirit he greatly respects.

I however find a lack of clarity and perhaps a tad bit of ambiguity in the article.

Specifically,, I'd like someone to help me find what's said in that article (and not what your own views are) as to what exactly "staling" means. What's being described seems to be the physical characteristics of the bread and not the flavor. I also note that the bread being tested was white baguettes. The bread we typically eat is typically firm with a strong texture when fresh and not of the spongy, angel-food cake-airy type like white bread is. The softer bread we buy, like the sourdough I will mention in the next post, is never refrigerated.

The article says that bread can be rehabilitated by heating it. The bread we put into the fridge is always toasted before it's eaten. Also, in that I do the same thing almost always when eating such bread when fresh, I've not noticed a significant difference in either texture (I toast to a medium-well done) or in flavor.

I would like to know more and have someone point out what I missed in that article. Otherwise, I'm not completely sure if it's saying that the flavor degrades or not.

" we’re partial to sourdough. "

Yeah, me too. And I have been since forever. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it's the same problem as with rye bread. Most if not all bread labeled as "sourdough" being sold these days is meekly flavored, and lacks the deep sourness that's been a traditional flavor of the type. A flavor that was common back when people rode their dinosaurs to the grocery store to buy it. It's very hard to find the real thing anymore. But there is one acceptable product I've found, which is easier to find than Gayle's rye. And, funny enough, comes from the same general neighborhood

Before I share, sjerin, I wonder if you or other Bay Area denizens remember Parisian brand sourdough bread? The bakery dated from just after the Gold Rush and was easily spotted by the blue-white-red paper package for the baguettes. It was the best!. The real thing. It was even prominently sold at SF Airport for departing passengers to buy to take home (or locals going to visit someone who needed a local gift). Sadly, the business closed in 2005.

A bread I've found that is reliably flavorful and very sour, sold in loaf, boule and baguette shapes, is Sumano Watsonville Sourdough bread. For the longest time, dumb me thought the name was of Japanese-American origin. (There is a Japanese American community in Watsonville. It used to be larger but it's still there.). No, it's Spanish - Su Manos (his hands), the shortened form, or their slogan, En Sus Manos, in your hands.

I couldn't find a photo of Parisian bread but I did find the image painted on the side of a building. Anyone remember the brand and mourn its passing as I did?

sjerin, is Sumanos the one you like? If not, give it a try.

The bread we put into the fridge is always toasted before it's eaten.

Exactly. No one ever talks about toast, one of the most important food groups! We also refrigerate most of our bread, because we eat toast in the morning and I often make sandwiches on lightly toasted bread. We usually have three different kinds of bread in the fridge, and if we kept them out they'd go moldy long before we finished the loaves. I've tried freezing bread, but didn't like the texture, either defrosted or toasted, nearly as much.

We buy 3 loaves of wholemeal, sourdough or granary per week and freeze two until we need them. The texture and taste are completely unaffected. But we never, ever, refrigerate fresh bread. It goes stale. It is loosely wrapped in a plastic bag and kept on the counter. It doesn't go mouldy and stays fresh several days. I don't understand using toast for sandwiches. We only eat toast hot and freshly made. Is there a reason for doing that? Is it because otherwise it would be stale or tasteless? I can't say I fancy cold toast at all.

It's a texture issue. I often like the crispness of the bread against whatever's in the sandwich. I mean, I wouldn't use toast for, say, a pastrami sandwich. But tuna or chicken salad? You bet!

ETA, this discussion just reminded me of this:

I love that clip, bookwoman.

Toast for sandwiches? The ones you mention, very much. Also, how about a BLT? Or a turkey sandwich? Or a grilled cheese sandwich? Or a croque monsieur? Toasting not only makes bread crispy but it adds the flavors of the Maillard Reaction. Most sandwiches offered in diners (traditionally called "coffee shops" in my area) are presented on toast. When the most common form of bread was the spongy white bread, it became a way of giving the bread (and the sandwich) a bit more substance. Using toast for a sandwich is common, not unusual.

There's a sandwich franchise business called Quiznos in the US, maybe elsewhere too but no matter. When the counter person is making your sandwich, asking what you would like and not like put on it, there's another question always asked: "Would you like it toasted?"

floral, it makes no sense to me to buy more fresh bread (3 loaves) than can be consumed before it goes bad, only to put it into the freezer? Why buy fresh bread at all?

Who mentioned cold toast?

I have some familiarity but nothing approaching a comprehensive understanding of the food practices in your country. I suggest you should consider a similar attitude about ours.

Toasting a sandwich after making it is not the same as using two bits of toast to make a sandwich. And I've never eaten, seen or heard of a BLT that is made with toast. Here they're made with fresh crusty white bread.

We buy our bread at an artisan bakers which comes once a week to a farmers market. The first loaf is is eaten before it goes stale. The two in the freezer are brought out in succession as needed and taste as good as the day they were baked. The point? We do not have to make frequent trips to the shops and always have completely fresh bread to hand.

" I've never eaten, seen or heard of a BLT that is made with toast "

floral, again, I'd suggest you stick to what you know well. As far as I've ever experienced, a BLT in the US is almost ALWAYS made on freshly toasted bread. You're in a different country, food practices vary.

" Toasting a sandwich after making it is not the same as using two bits of toast to make a sandwich. "

Another example is a "hamburger" sandwich. Hamburger buns in commercial establishments, and indeed when made at home, are almost always made with buns that were "toasted" before the sandwich is assembled. Toasted on the open gill when cooking outdoors, under a broiler or in the pan when made indoors.

If you think frozen bread tastes like when fresh, then good for you. I don't and I also see no point in freezing fresh food of any kind.

Oh, I forgot - Happy Easter to you.

I will try and make a stab at restating the article so as to maybe make it clearer.

Starch is Crystaline in its natural structure. Flour is made of starch crystals amongst other things.

The crystals like to join together into structures.

Hydrating-adding water- disrupts that tendency to stick together into structured forms and will also disrupt the crystal itself. Heat further disrupts this. The flavor that breads has with the least crystalline structure has the taste that we like in bread. Staling refers to the tendency of starch to recrystallize and restructure and makes the bread taste objectionable. There is nothing inherently wrong with stale bread. I actually like the taste of stale French bread. Loss of moisture is separate. That is drying out.

Maybe thinking about what happens to sugar crystals heated in water and their tendency to re form given a chance would help visualize what is happening.

patriciae

I know almost nothing about it but I know that high carb foods, like pasta, mashed potatoes, oatmeal, or even split pea soup, tend to dry out in the fridge (even when well covered) and need to have water added before being reheated. Is this related to what you're talking about?

I've seen articles here and there on the topic of "resistant starch" that tends to raise blood sugar more slowly and differently than other starches. And how so-called white carbohydrates having a high glycemic index are transformed into more resistant starches after 12 hours of chilling. And which do not revert back to their prior state after being reheated.

Is that somehow related too?

That isn't at all why I refrigerate bread. I don't put bread in the fridge for this reason but again, I find it mostly the same as pre fridge time, when I heat it before using it, and it prevents it from getting moldy.

Drying only accelerates the process of staling. Staling is the recrystallization and restructuring of the starch crystals and structures. It isn't obvious that starch is a crystal. In the article it says it happens even with bread completely wrapped to totally prevent moisture loss. Water apparently simply helps to disrupt the crystals in the first place. Staling will happen no matter what because starch tends to recrystallize. It attempts to go back to its natural state. We prefer its taste in its altered form.

If you do anything with sugar you get a visible example. Sugar in water gets its molecules pulled apart and the bits surrounded by water molecules but it does lust after its own kind. It makes crystals given the least chance. I suppose it is a related process. I will have to look that up.

I have no idea if resistant starches and glycemic index has anything to do with this. It is a science still in process by the way and I think we need to be careful about using some of the more dubious uses of this information. I understand it is very much in flux. Not saying it isnt valid science but not necessarily applicable or easily understood in diet. People use it to sell books.

I had no idea that was how breads go stale but I do get the science more or less. It seems sound.

patriciae

Here are some visual illustrations of starch gelatinization and retrogradation as it relates to bread staling. There is also a video about starch textures, and a video about making Japanese milk bread.

Starch Retrogradation, Alisa Chen

🔸https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGfSA-ezmEw

——-

Starch Retrogradation | The Science of Stale Bread

PostHarvest

32,013 views Apr 25, 2020

Starch retrogradation is the technical term for bread staling. It's the reason why your bread changes in texture and mouthfeel as it ages. In this video, we'll show you how starch retrogradation occurs and how you can delay it to have a softer, tender bread for a longer time.

🔸https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13ICPBTnqKo

————

Further understanding of starch gelatinization (in particular as it refers to bread)

🔸 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOgr-Buiag

———

Learning about Starch Textures: Cook-up and Retrogradation

🔸https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvT4G-p9DmQ

Learning about Starch Textures: Cook-up and Retrogradation

🔸https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvT4G-p9DmQ

How a Chemist Makes the Softest Bread You'll Ever Eat (How to best store breadto prevent staling — stop retrogradation)

(Japanese milk bread)

🔸https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ziMBDPMuP8

Petalique, I hope your Ukrainian Easter meal was a success.

When my in-laws were still alive, and while my children were growing up, we always celebrated both English and Ukrainian Christmas/Easter. Not religious, just good get togethers. The bread (always sweet)was a big hit.

Your comment about braiding made me think of this. This is what it looked like (from a funeral I attended last year) Everybody got a loaf!

The Easter bread was braided to look like bird nests. Some had eggs in the middle, others were just decorated with eggs, but always works of art. I wish that I had taken photos of some of them. They kind of looked like this:

Sorry, for going off track.

Great finds Petalique! Much clearer even.

patriciae

petalique, I have not disputed and accept the various discussions concerning the staling of bread with time.

These all seem to concern themselves with texture and how bread becomes more rigid as the days pass. We all know about using "stale" bread for Thanksgiving stuffing or for croutons. That is, stale bread or its reasonable substitute, oven toasted cubes.

I haven't notice any of these discussions addressing the flavor of the bread. As we do not buy bread that's fluffy or spongy when fresh, and usually toast bread before eating it, my curiosity remains unanswered - how do these internal structure changes affect flavor?

Elmer, I do remember “Parisian” and can’t for the life of me remember when it disappeared. Yes, it was ubiquitous in the Bay Area airports. No, Ive never heard of Sunamo but don’t think I’ll trot over to Watsonville to get it. Do they sell the bread in SJ? I like Acme quite well and usually buy it when I’m at Lunardi’s or WF. But not at the Cupertino one! 😝

Thanks, roxol. Fortunately, we were guests, not hosts. The night day before DH got things we wanted to bring, then he did some cooking and I did some Easter morning. Bit my back was so painful and I had to clean some of the kitchen before I could begin. I we t to pour myself a glass of club soda bit wasso distracted by pain and frustration w DH that I poured the club soda into the batter and had to dump it out and reume w the batter, then after I had the sweet bread shaped, realized that in my distress, I’d forgotten raisins and another ingredient. So, trying not to overwork the batter, I had to take a few steps back. Then I had only 15 mins to shower and get ready. I was peeved at DH because he is such a slob and doesn’t see clutter, crumbs….. He is Mister Magoo like.

We got there okay and the dinner was fine but my back pIn was screaming.

I must remember to never offer to make or bake anything. i was out of sorts before and on the drive home after. DH seems quasi comatose. Personality, cog decline, incipient dementia, jerk? I have no idea, but it is very stressful and I feel as though I am sort of playing babysitter or nanny and I am already trying to cope with my own stuff. (Talk about drifting off topic. I am at my breaking point.)

Those Easter breads look so beautiful. It is wonderful when people can make things festive looking and delicious. I assume the eggs must be cooked before putting them into the bread?

sjerin, I've purchased Sumanos bread before at the Whole Foods in Cupertino. It's called Watsonville Sourdough but no reason to have to go there. I think it's carried in Safeway too.

Sumanos is maybe half a notch down from Parisian but it's real good. Better than any other I've tried. It's got the traditional degree of sourness, not just a hint. Try it, report back what you think.

PS - I love Lunardi's. I usually go to the one in Los Gatos. I especially like the produce, meat, deli counter, and seafood departments.

As for Parisian, this article I found says it closed its doors in 2005.

Sour Ending for Parisian

Elmer, I think I understand. We don’t eat much bread and buy whole wheat, seed or cracked grain sandwich bread which we put on the fridge door so that it will not mold. Maybe I should freeze it, although, despite the science, I’m not sure it would taste much better. when the bread had been refrigerated, I do toast it if I want to make a sandwich or have w breakfast. We never buy white bread or soft squish bread. I love good, fresh baguettes, or ”artisan” breads, but these quickly lose their flavor. I can toast or use the remaining bread for croutons.

I think in one of the videos, the woman states that the stale bread isn’t very tasty. You and I know this from experience. I am not convinced that freezing a new fresh loaf will result in it being as flavorful as a fresh loaf. Better than stale, but I’d prefer a very fresh loaf to on that was fresh frozen. But short of making frequent market trips, what are we to do. That is a good reason to live a short ways from a good bread bakery, or to live/share with a household.

I made Irish Soda Bread last Sunday and while that tastes okay leftover, it also has butter, real buttermilk and eggs in it (keeping the starches from getting back together). But it isn’t the sort of bread I want to eat daily or make sandwiches from.

In my younger days, I used to love getting a freshly baked baguette enjoying it with a delicious country paté. Heavenly.

"I am not convinced that freezing a new fresh loaf will result in it being as flavorful as a fresh loaf."

If frozen when very fresh it is. The frozen loaf can either be defrosted at room temperature or briefly microwaved. The latter method gives a warm loaf, just like out of the oven.

The bread we buy is whole meal, sourdough or seeded. It doesn't mold quickly so once defrosted it lasts a couple of days. We mostly eat it untoasted but it also makes good toast.

“that I poured the club soda into the batter and had to dump it out and reume w the batter, then after I had the sweet bread shaped, realized that in my distress, I’d forgotten raisins and another ingredient”

That’s why the French call it ”pain”. Baking can be a pain for sure. 😁

I’m sorry about your back.

The eggs in the Ukrainian bread ( paska) were just dyed raw eggs, and placed in the dough before baking. However, some folks would like to show off their egg decorating skill (the kind done with a stylus and wax, and dipped into several dye baths). They’d just place them around the bread after it had baked.

We each are free to follow whatever practices work best for us and meet our own personal requirements and expectations. I'd never buy more than one loaf at a time.

Thanks, roxol. You’re right. Sometimes it is PAIN — au bon pain.

When I didn’t have pain, I really enjoyed baking and cooking. Garden work, cleaning, painting, repairing. I love working with my body as well as my mind. I bet most of us do.

Thanks, floral_uk. I may try that. Usually our freezer is crowded. Do you wrap the bread in a particular way? Paper, Foil?

Because I am sort of handicapped now, I rarely bake bread. I make no knead slow rise for 48 hour pizza dough, and sometimes very oatful oatmeal raisin bread. I want to expeeiment with and get good at making a seeded, grainful bread and a quasi-french bread. I looked online for bread bakeries and found one on the other side of a mountain and state forest. Unless I get an ultralight or a drone, it will be 35 mins or more each way.

So, if I could get space in the freezer, that might be well worth it.

Did you used to bake your own bread?

Ohhh, yes I recognize that wrapper, Elmer. We do buy that bread, and lately have been stuck on Beckman’s. The reason I mentioned the Cupertino WF is that I read their deli and bakery were closed for a day or two, due to ”vermin.” Ick.

Sorry about the tangent, Petalique.

Next time you have it, give it a good sniff, then a taste, and tell me what you think.

I don't like Beckmann's as well but of course we all have different taste buds. Funny how both bakeries are over the hill - maybe the ocean air does something for it?

🤣

To freeze bread we use a very fresh loaf and wrap it tightly in a plastic bag so it doesn't dry out. I've explained why we buy three loaves at a time.

Thanks. DH put newly opened bread in the fridge — he didn’t get my recent retrogradation memo. Lightly toasted, it was good. We will nave to try wrapping and freezing several slices because awhole loaf is too much at once.

patriciae — I always like visuals and they help me to remember a concept.

If you are using sliced bread (we don't) it's easy to freeze the loaf and take out the number of slices you want. No need to freeze individual slices. You can toast from frozen. Some toasters have a 'frozen' setting.

The only thing I could find about flavor being affected was oxygenation. Unfortunately in the long explanatory bit I read it described long "over mixing" and long slow rising as the source of over oxygenation and that is precisely how you make Panettone and Brioche which are both remarkably flavorful breads.

patriciae