I am also curious.

For me, the occurrence of new basal breaks in my grafted roses varies a lot. Some are generous, some have none. I don't know if it's a difference in the variety, or a difference in the quality of the graft. I suspect it's the quality of the graft. For example, two years ago I had a massive basal break on an already vigorous multiflora-grafted rose I bought in 2007 (Pink Intuition). Of course, I have no idea where you garden (it would be very helpful to at least put a zone with your name), but I'd never cut off all of the canes to encourage basals. But then again, it would be a bold and brave experimental move, and you could see what happens!

I’ve had accidental experience that’s obviously purely antidotal, but sort of confirms @susan9santabarbara. Many of my roses have lost canes over the years, due to Mother Nature knocking them about in the wind, or sunburn or careless toddlers. Some of the varieties sprouted new basals right away, and others never recovered or took forever.

But I noticed that of the roses that consistently gave me basals, some consistently grew breaks on just one spot of the graft, leaving an entire half or more of the bush naked—leaving me believe that the graft is just more healthy in a certain part.

My own Root roses seem to be more willing to give basal breaks, but i’m trying to scratch some of the grafts to see if it’ll help stimulate growth on other rides of the bush.

All my roses are grafted, aside from two grown from cuttings and one that came own root unexpectedly. 

Almost all of them put out at least one new basal last year, often more. Right now grafted Pierre Cardin is going nuts with five at a time. There are only one or two of my roses, off the top of my head, that didn't get any. So no, grafted doesn't impede basal breaks at all.

I agree with Ryan that the quality/health of the graft might play a role. I also think the overall health of the plant is key. Occasionally a weak plant will put out a new basal. More often, it's the ones that are already bushy and thriving that put out multiple basals each year.

 I also think that it's down to nutrition. If you want basals, I would say feed them, and especially if in pots, make sure to give a complete trace minerals additive on top of the usual npk. I use a fish fertilizer (Biomarinus, I don't think it's sold in the US) a few times a year in addition to the typical npk liquid ferts. It is very low in npk but absolutely loaded with a very wide range of trace minerals. I always feel like I see more basals after applying it, but correlation is not causation etc, etc.

I did forgot to add one detail and I'll add it here and edit the OP.

Does whether the graft is not buried (receives more sunlight) vs buried (cold weather zones) plays a element in this discussion. Mine are planed about 3 inches below grade.

It's had plenty of alfalfa pellet feeding in year 2, 3 and 4.

This year as well, I pulled back the mulch - and have each one at least 3 handfuls+ of alfalda pellets....to promote new canes/breaks. Ha, maybe my alfalfa is expired ;-/ JK

Where are you located a1an?

Seaside, am I correct in remembering that a lot of your roses are on Laxa (common in Europe), but that you also have some on Dr. Huey? I was wondering if you noticed a difference between them?

Ryan, one of the big changes I've noticed in the 25 years I've been a crazy rose fiend is that bare roots used to have canes coming from all sides of the graft. Now, it's almost always only from one side. I wonder how much that affects which side has more basals. OTOH, my budded maidens on multiflora start with one tiny bud grafted onto the rootstock, and those end up producing basals all around the graft. It's funny, I never think of new canes from an own-root as a basal, since I figure it's just the normal growth of the plant :-D

I live in zone 4. I plant hardy own root roses at least 3 inches deep (Quietness, John Davis, St. Cecilia, and Cressida) that regularly give me new canes annually.

I had a hedge of John Davis (oops! It was Johann Strauss) a zone 6 rose, that was grafted on Dr. Huey. That hedge was planted in a bed that was 1 1l2 foot wide right next to the house. Each rose of the 8 was planted with the top of the graft at least 4 inches below the soil line. Each year that hedge winter killed down to the soil line without anything but snow protection. Each March I put 1/3 cup of Osmocote for roses on each plant. Each year I got all new growth from under the dirt. I never knew whether it was new canes or just a repeat. It didn’t matter to me. I just had at least 4 canes times 8 roses pumping out blossoms all season long. After 20 years the hedge started to lose it’s oompf. The blossoming lessened and I got tired of the heavy thorns and the huge clean up each year, so I removed it..

I continue my habit of burying canes with each rose I plant. I started doing it more than 20 years ago before it was ever thought of the right thing to do. It just made sense to me. I didn’t want to go through the extra work of protecting roses like other people in town were doing, I guess. I just took the easy way out and buried the canes.

There was a time I had an Austin rose Emanuel, that was a one cane wonder. I cut it to the ground and it died.

@susan9santabarbara 

They're all on Laxa. We don't get Dr Huey at all over here. I've seen one place that grafts on multiflora and have been meaning to give it a try, but not yet.  And sorry, in my earlier comment it was actually you I was agreeing with about graft health!

Compelling story, Rebecca.

The report about Emanuel is ominous.

I was at a public rose garden today and thought of this thread when I took this pic. I think this is ideally how a rose should age. This plant is about 7 years old. You can tell old the older unproductive canes have been cut flush to the bud union. All the currently active canes are basals that probably sprouted in the last 3 or so years. This is a rose receiving great care in an ideal location, and not every variety is as genetically generous with basals.

I goofed! The hedge that I wrote about above was Johann Straus!!! It was a knock your socks off bloomer of a rose that gave me at least 3 huge bloom cycles. It lasted a long time on the bush and in a vase. It lasted 20 years grafted before it started to decline. The photo below shows 2nd cycle. It continued to grow to above the lower window ledge by the third cycle. Each year it died back to the ground and each year did it all over again.

I have seen it listed on Roses Unlimited website. You could call for availability if interested.

Rebecca

EVERY YEAR AFTER the fact, when clenup has been trashed, hauled away, I always say, DRATS, I should take the cuttings and experiement. And of course, this year is not the exception. Might need to make a tatto of this mental note so I won't forget

I'd be curious what your success/preference rate if if you may have started in similar shoes.

Had grafted, wanted more stems from soil. Took cutting, made a plant. The non grafted from the cutting was --superior-- than the grafted with *many new canes from soil*

Paul -

This sentence "new infrastructure from the base of the plant (aka "basal breaks"

I'm hitting Year 5 in growing. When roses are sold as grafted, is it literally from my understanding just a single point/bud of where they have made the graft, So if I receive a rose with 3-4-5 canes, whatever it comes with, it was just a single graft point and those 3, 4, 5 canes came from a single bud ?

On the standards I received and planted last year, some of these look really KNARLY, I think it be grafted in at least 2 or 3 poisitions on the trunk of the standard, On one standard, the graft union is really hideouse. Its like 3 small onions on the top of the standard and I have canes coming out of these onion's. Eh, when it leafs out, you don't it

"So if I receive a rose with 3-4-5 canes, whatever it comes with, it was just a single graft point and those 3, 4, 5 canes came from a single bud?"

Yes. That's right.

Thx Paul.

Lotsa to read, digest and unpack here on those 3 little words you just said

Apparently this photo (taken the morning after the rose arrived from Palatine), which you saw 2 years ago, was not sufficiently convincing.

I actually searched my mailbox for a link to that old thread but well, as you know houzz email notifications is not exactly accurate at tmes

I was wrong - it was only 15 months ago

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6225025/tell-me-is-safe-to-lop-a-budded-stem

Just due to recent pic, even though I already laid down the 1st spring feed and alfalfa pellets, it's prompted me to just give each one just a smige more alfalfa in hopes on encouring some more new canes. Hope being the word

I've never tried this myself, but there's a technique called "notching" I saw on YouTube that might be useful.

 It won't give you new basals but it could stimulate a dormant bud near the base of a cane to at least get branching to happen lower on the main canes:

https://youtu.be/a5cYbAcguo4

Thanks for the link. Seems easy enough.

“Just due to recent pic, even though I already laid down the 1st spring feed and alfalfa pellets, it's prompted me to just give each one just a smige more alfalfa in hopes on encouring some more new canes.”

Though there is no zoo in zoology, there is a midge in smidge.

@a1an "Just due to recent pic, even though I already laid down the 1st spring feed and alfalfa pellets, it's prompted me to just give each one just a smige more alfalfa in hopes on encouring some more new canes."

It is a well documented fact that exceeding a small dose of Triacontanol (the active ingredient in Alfalfa) doesn't improve the outcome, and in fact an excess is known to have undesirable effects/diminished yield. Follow the recommended dose rate and avoid temptation to adopt a "more is more" approach.

"Triacontanol is usually applied in concentrations on the order of 10-7 to 10-9 M, which means it is used from around 0.01 to 1 ppm. This means that we use about 1000 times less triacontanol than other additives in order to obtain a meaningful result."

And from another study: "The optimum application rate and frequency for triacontanol varies across different species but if you want to take an initial guess use a foliar application of a 0.5 ppm solution every week. There is usually a sweet spot for concentration – after that you start to see a decrease in results compared to the highest point – so you want to start below a 1 ppm application rate. For some crops repeated applications might be unnecessary – with just one or two applications giving most of the effect through the entire crop cycle" (emphasis mine)

That's 0.5 ppm for an application that might be sufficient for half the growing season. Zero. Point. Five parts per million.

Paul, do you have a good idea of who to trust when it comes to recommendations of how much alfalfa pellets to apply? I'm guessing that as pellets take longer to decompose, it's good to know how much and how infrequently. It's different than applying a foliar teatea, right?

This is a good thread. :) I'm with librarian in wanting to know what she asked. :)

The problem with understanding application rates for Alfalfa is tied with solubility in water: Triacontanol isn't readily soluble in water - its a fatty acid (a wax). Its unclear how much of a role bacterial action plays in the decomposition of Alfalfa (n the soil or in "tea"), or exactly what other factors (heat, light, oxidation) contribute to the release of this growth regulator from Alfalfa meal. So understanding dosage is difficult.

If you apply 1/2 to 1 cup of alfalfa meal to the soil of a rose once a year, its unlikely that you will witness any deleterious effects, as so little of the active ingredient is going to actually make it into the plant. (bearing in mind that studied applications of the active ingredient show that rates of 0.01 to 0.5 ppm are most effective) But to understand how much of the Triacontanol is actually being liberated from the Alfalfa and ending up absorbed by the rose, we'd need to know how the various decomposition factors affect solubility.

Commercial products (designed as foliar sprays) are made by dissolving Triacontanol in hot Acetone (or other solvents). Its nearly 100% insoluble in water. If I were to chase the "Triacontanol dragon's tail" myself (I'm not interested), I would purchase a commercial product that contains a known amount of the growth regulator in it, achieved by dissolving it with an appropriate solvent, and apply it as a spray. For all we know, none of the Triacontanol is ever dissolved from Alfalfa meal when applying it directly to the soil (or by "brewing tea") and the enhanced growth effects observed are because of other solubles present in Alfalfa (Nitrogen and other macro/micro nutrients).

Thanks, Paul. I'm not surprised by your answer. It makes sense....I would have guessed that alfalfa meal was like adding another kind of material to compost. I really appreciate the time you've taken to answer.

A reminder: be careful when choosing alfalfa for putting in your garden! if you buy alfalfa feed pellets, many (most) if them contain a lot of molasses and salt, neither of which belongs in your soil!

Thank you!

Thanks, Paul.

I think we all should just simplify and quit worrying about every little alfalfa pellet to put down on roses. My roses are fine with a simpler routine. I got a kick out of reading above about molasses and salt. That's horse feed. I fed my horse her favorite treat of Purina Omalene years ago. It was loaded with molasses, grains, and probably some alfalfa pellets for good measure. This stuff was pure horse candy. Diane