My older son majored in theater, acting, in collage. It amazed me that his requirements in math, science, pe, language, could not be met by classes in personal finance (anyone in the arts must have very crazy tax returns!), acoustics, dance, sign language or history of English or Old/Middle English. He had a friend in high school who took dance for his PE, he was also going into theater and it benefitted him enormously. He may have been the only boy in his HS dance class.

As for me, well, I’m a liberal arts girl. I will say, though, that the one class I took in high school that I still use every day in the last 50 years was ”College Typing and Notehand”. We learned to touch type (and even on the virtual keyboard I’m using to type this on my iPad,, I’m largely doing without looking so just ignore that double comma). We learned a form of shorthand that I used in classes, and use now when I’m in a hurry or for my Christmas shopping list because no one else can read it!. And how to take notes for class, which extends to meetings.

I took music theory. Is it useful in my career? I guess not. But it sure was interesting.

I became a technical writer, so my varied courses did come in to play. Technical writing, UX(User Experience) writing, is quite varied, and honestly, I often drew on things I had learned, or just being multi-interested, when talking to the tech developers whose work I was writing about.

I DO wish we had more education on nutrition! and infant/child development. Most of us would become parents, after all. And of course, personal finance.

oh, and civics and government! yeah, we had to take US History and how many of us yawned our way through that? But how does your local government work? That matters to you.

Crazybrunette, just what I wanted to say.

Amylou, I think there is a difference between classes such as finance and cooking or cleaning. I think that everyone needs to study history, science, writing including practical writing, literature, and math (also including practical math). One thing I can say for Latin, it is an immense help with figuring out many unknown words since so many have Latin origins. Without knowledge of those subjects which, incidentally also teach you how to think critically and logically, Without knowledge of those, we cannot be informed and contributing citizens.

Granted, not everyone needs to go to college, but many of the subjects you mentioned (gardening, crafting classes such as crochet or sewing) are learned by reading, joining a club or class in the evenings or on weekends, or from friends. You don't mention art or music which I think are a vital requirement in all K-12 years. Community colleges also offer some classes that are practical and well worth investigating and not for only young folks..

I do not know where you are located, but I am sorry you disliked school so much. I think your teachers over the years must have let you down and, as a retired teacher, I am so sorry for that. I do worry about this: I wish I was taught how to finagle around HR and their BS better. Right now I just rage at them when they do something dumb or disrespectful. That's not good.

No one is better than you and you are no better than anyone else. Anger is a secondary emotion. Something else drives it like fear or loneliness. Work on letting go of your anger even if it means distancing yourself from toxic people and take some courses that you wish you had had in school. You will meet like-minded people and maybe things will turn around for you. I am not sure any answers to your final question would really make a difference.

Fine arts, history and English courses are pretty good for learning critical thinking and analysis - creativity too.

@cyn427 - Without knowledge of those subjects which, incidentally also teach you how to think critically and logically, Without knowledge of those, we cannot be informed and contributing citizens.

Yes! So often it isn't the full content that we carry forward, but the skills we used in learning something that we draw on for other problem-solving.

I am also an advocate for music and arts in the school system. Not only are they linked to learning other subjects such as math, but they foster creative thinking.

Cyn427, the subjects mentioned ( gardening, etc) were mentioned as an ELECTIVE course, as in required but the subject would be chosen voluntary. I just wish that instead of being forced into unwanted classes for a credit requirement, I had better options for things that I found interesting, useful or fun. I am not discounting the fact that lots of people benefit from things i did not. And I do not in any way discount the value of a college education for certain careers. I just think that they can be achieved a lot faster and cheaper if all those extras weren't required. History ,fine arts, and English pursuits can also be pursued at leisure without an attendance or performance requirement attached.

I am not sure any answers to your final question would really make a difference.

I am not trying to make a difference or change anything with this post. I just asked a broad, basic question for discussion purposes. And provided background that shaped my own opinions on it.

I do not think my teachers let me down. They were doing what was required, as was I. Which is why I posed the question of what things people think should be taught as basic life skills in High School. I have never used my latin knowledge as you described, or at all for that matter. I have also never used Calculus or Algebra or taken heed of any of my religious education. As a Catholic, as I was raised and educated, I am a solid F student. I could have certainly used more broad and practical education like finances and other things. Learning those on my own was neither interesting or fun, but are useful. I can say that a lot of the stuff i learned in high school was not interesting, fun OR useful.

I personally think that all the things you mentioned should be offered in high school. I'm in SoCal and our kids have attended public high schools. There are ROP classes (welding, car repair, woodshop) at at least one high school in our district. The better school districts (and it's becoming more common) are offering what are called CTE pathways (Career Technical Education) where electives in things like what you are listed are offered and after 2 or 3 courses, the student earns a special designation on their transcript. There's a nearby school district where kids take courses and build a tiny house. There are CTE pathways in fashion design, graphic design, business, child development, entertainment, hospitality, and many, many more. There are courses in architecture and landscape architecture, too, that I just heard about. The courses that my kids took were very good, though we never compared to private school experience as it is completely out of our ability to pay for private school.

And, the local high schools are offering more courses during the school year: 7 or 8 courses per year is the norm in our school district, although a surprising number of kids don't take advantage of the opportunity to take those extra courses.

Another neighboring district has a special technical high school, which I hear is really great for kids wanting to learn a trade.

I really, really hope it becomes more common, because there is a real need here to expand these programs.

I agree with your list and desire that kids learn about practical topics. But I want to also interject that I feel math is really, really important for a lot of reasons, and not because I think most kids are ever going to use it again. I believe learning to think logically, and notate the various steps in problem-solving so it can be readily understood by someone else helps develop the brain in a similar way to language--where you have to learn to communicate your thought process step-by-step. I don't know why so many kids have to go through calculus, but I do think math, history, English, science, and an extra language are advisable and important.

I had to fight to be allowed to take drafting in grade 11 because that was a "boys" class. Boys were allowed to take cooking so why wasn't I allowed to take drafting. I won the fight and after that electives were open to both sexes - there were no more boys classes or girls classes.

I went through Commerce in university and in my days it was a 5 year program. To make extra money I marked papers for a third year marketing course. If you're in third year marketing you are in 4th year university and majoring in marketing and you should be pretty decent in communication skills. There were two students who couldn't write their way out of a paper bag and I told the prof that I refused to mark their papers (I would have failed the students). Somewhere along the way the system failed them. They never mastered English and it still confounds me that they made it that far.

I do wonder about the extra electives that we all have to take and Commerce is the same.

bpath - I was the same regarding typing. At my school it was called Typing 11X and it was for those who were headed to university and needed to know how to type quickly and accurately. We were also taught how to type resumes and research papers which included margins, centering but also references (how to format them), topic sentences, etc.

ETA - I went to an all academic high school and there were no fancy tech classes or other paths to follow except to university.

I would point out that anyone who scales a recipe up or down or scales a plan or pattern up or down is using algebra. And Excel is very algebra-heavy. I also find that Latin helps in recognising other words or deciphering the meanings of new words as so many English and European language words have their roots in Latin.

But I do agree that critical thinking should be high on the list.

Ah! That makes sense as to why i hate Excel so much. And the feeling is mutual it seems....

Many are confused. Compulsory education is not for you but for the society funding it! You may not have loved loved loved all your classes but they did strive to open your mind, expand your horizon beyond whatever the average developing brain would come up with on its own. That behooved the rest of us--if not you. We educated you with the hope you would become a successful member of society and give back, and pay taxes and not require us to fund your life through welfare programs. Pretty basic and harsh maybe but thems the facts and frankly a child shouldn't have a say so. They don't have enough brain power and higher level thinking to see beyond the horizon or around corners, to make those calls. So many are not appreciative of what they are GIFTED with. It's astonishing and I would say your attitude points to a truth that many did not learn what they ought about the plight of females/poor/uneducated in other countries. College that's an entirely different matter. This is why Technical schools are a thing. Universities and the degrees they offer like it or not are well respected in our society. So collectively society has decided you are a more qualified, capable person for taking all that English and History. Schools only require what the world wants. Now with so much being ruled by insurance companies it's only gotten worse. 6 years of school, BS+45 never got to my master's thesis; 6 years of success in schools as a Speech/Language Clinician worth nothing after 10 years at home raising my kids. Why? Schools began charging Medical Insurance for said services. Insurance companies decided a Masters was the only acceptable entry level degree for them to pay out. INSANITY. Schools can't afford to pay entry level hires with a masters!! It's bankrupting the system and making it impossible for schools to provide necessary services. 99% of the work I did does not call for a Masters!! But that's the game and if you want to play in their sandbox ya step in line. Or join the work force and work your way up. National stats say no high school diploma gets you TENS of THOUSANDS less in a lifetime or earnings. College degree even more discrepancy. So if you choose well it will pay out over time. BUT I think it is worth exploring the idea of testing to stay in school. If you aren't learning~~out to the work force you go. Students of a certain age, with poor attitudes and no respect for the knowledge they are being offered,are sucking up resources and clogging the system. If I thought we had a way of assuring they could provide for themselves, not be a drag on society I would be THRILLED to move them out into the world. Oh and hey that would solve the teacher shortage--because snotty , ill mannered, students is the reason no one wants to teach! Win win.

Agree 100% with CrazyBrunette. (I am a 30+ year retiree from a higher education institution.)

College teaches you HOW to think, a concept which can be described as critical thinking. Higher ed also teaches hard-to-measure things such as commitment, perseverance, work ethics, getting along with people, and maybe some subjects a person might never know they could excel in.

We have a son with a bachelor’s degree. He worked the first 10 years of his career in a field very closely related to his degree (agriculture). Several years ago he was offered (and accepted) a very fine job in finance. Would he have been able to make that transition without his degree? Doubtful. Did he grow up thinking ”I want to work in finance someday”? Nope. But his four-year degree, which required assorted economics and business classes, made it possible.

"Teaching" it in high school...ya know....where does it end. When I met my husband he could tie ANY of the knots on this poster....but he couldn't tie his shoe laces. His parents had never taught him. Or table manners. He can not use silverware without clacking them on his teeth...and holds them in his fist. He can rebuild a car engine. He can wire a house per code. But the essentials were left out. Should the school be the place to learn "everything"?

Well, DARN! You started your post with ”I was recently engaged……”! I got all excited thinking that we were going to help with a pink wedding!

I think a prerequisite of graduating from 8th? 10th? 3rd? grade should be passing a short course on 50 logical fallacies. That alone would go a long way to encourage critical thinking.

My favorite street art:

I wish that somewhere along the way there had been some practical course such as household budgeting and shopping for groceries,etc. My mother mocked me for asking about such things when I was in the 4th grade, and money was never discussed at the dinner table. I was woefully unprepared despite having very good grades in the usual high school subjects.

Courses on soft skills and basic etiquette would have been nice.

amylou, it sounds like you were at a college, not a trade school. And that your program's design was to give you AN EDUCATION as well as knowledge for a particular profession. Contrast that with trade schools that provide only vocational training.

It was rash for you to question the program of study that was involved, it was there for a reason. Too bad you didn't appreciate it.

Amy, I love you for questioning the world you are in.

And I love how you have the courage to discuss your weaknesses, what you don't know, and how others might benefit from realizing that many of us are not taught valuable skills which in fact might be incorporated into a curriculum. Not all of us have parents that helped teach us how to get through life, and some of those deficits can really hold us back until we do learn, from whatever source.

I almost don't know how to respond to this :-) IMO, any formal education is of benefit whether the student at the time appreciates it or not. And often, because of their age and lack of maturity and life experience, they don't. Every single thing you learn will help you in life in some way, although it may not be immediately obvious.

As to whether or not offering an assortment of practical (if not educational) skills makes sense, I think that depends on the student and the school. I attended a high school that was college prep focused so almost all the curriculum was formulated with that in mind. I don't regret anything I learned there or consider any of it a waste of time, even the higher math, which someone pointed out previously gets used all the time in subtle but very telling ways.

I have two college degrees, both quite technical, but received 30 years apart. If I could afford it, I'd consider going back to college to take more advanced courses in a variety of interests.....just because :-) There is no such thing as too much education!!

I also think a lot of the more practical skills called out in this thread are the responsibility of the parents. They should be the ones imparting necessary life skills while schools and universities should educate. There is a difference!

I heartily agree with GardenGal. To add to it a bit, I too was a science-based major in college - and yet the classes which still stand out for me to this day decades later are my electives. Art history blew my mind. I sat in those lectures absolutely entranced with what I was learning.

Anthropology fascinated me. I loved economics, social psychology....gosh, there were so many choices that I graduated with a list of classes I still wanted to take. I wished I could have taken more electives and less requirements. :)

College opened up whole new worlds for me. It made me a more well-rounded person, I'm grateful for the chance I had to get little tastes of so many different subjects.

To me, that's what college or university is supposed to do - push you to learn new things, try new things, expand your horizons. However if that's not your thing....that's ok too. Clearly you've done just fine for yourself and who can argue with success?

(ETA - and I still think Excel may be one of the most useful creations, ever....)

I too was a science-based major in college - and yet the classes which still stand out for me to this day decades later are my electives. Art history blew my mind.

And mine, so much so that after getting a BA in Biology, I got an MA in Art History and wound up in a completely different field than the one I had entered college for.

I met someone who had a consulting service to help students in highschool figure out their next step. He told me of one case where the kid was not much of a student, but liked to hang out with his neighbor and help him tinker with projects. They decided the kid should go to tech school. His sister was a very good student who took the Ivy League route. A few years later, the tech student was making good money as an electrician and the sister with the Ivy League education was a barista. There's a lot to be said for a practical education.

I think there is a lot to be said for ANY education - technical and trades schools are the perfect choice for some people, a college or university setting are the perfect choices for other people. Put the right person in the wrong setting and they won't like it, won't learn, whatever.

There is something to be said about figuring out your strengths and playing to them, while being aware of your weaknesses and shoring those up as you can too.

Side-note: some colleges/universities offer free tuition for adult learners over a certain age. For example, the university where I work offers free tuition for students 62+. You don't have to be degree-seeking, but you certainly can. It can be a great way to keep our brains in shape!

I got two college degrees - 16 years apart. The first was at a private university that was very flexible with its requirements, and so it only required that one have at least two courses in three different fields - Science (including math), Humanities, and Social Sciences, which included history. The Science field required one math and one science class, but the others were more flexible, and one could negotiate requirements with one's advisor. I started out majoring in Physics, but soon learned that I found that not to be my primary interest, and then transferred from the Science and Engineering department to Humanities. Looking back, I probably should have majored in Architecture, but I really appreciate the education I got in Humanities.

I got my second degree at a state school, which had extremely rigid requirements for courses. Unfortunately, I could only get another Bachelor's degree for my second choice, and so I had to fulfill all of the state's (Texas) requirements, which included American History, Government, and two "writing course" requirements. I already had a B.A. from a superior university in German/English literature (double major) and had my writing published,, but UT still said that I had to have two "writing component" classes to prove that I was literate. For my degree in English, I had taken a creative writing class taught by Larry McMurtry, but UT did not consider that a "writing component" course because UT did not have an identical course offered. There were so many stupid requirements that UT had that I still have nightmares about them. For my B.A., I took European History for the history requirement, but UT required American History instead, and I did not learn anything in that class that I had not already learned in high school.

To get an Interior Design degree at UT, one had to go through the Home Economics department, which was in Natural Sciences, meaning that one had to take one Chemistry course and two Biological Sciences courses. My Chemistry course did transfer from my first degree, but I did have to take a Biology class, and I elected to take Botany as my second Biological Sciences course, but I did not see how either had anything to do with Interior Design.

In high school, I was not allowed to take Home Economics, as that was for girls only, but I did take drafting, and girls were allowed to take that.

I think that everyone should be required to learn a foreign language by high school (if not much earlier), but I think that Spanish is a better (and more practical) choice than Latin, although I did take Latin in college. I really think that a second language should be taught in elementary school.

I 100% agree Lars that another language should be mandatory starting when kids are little sponges and will pick it up easily.

I wanted to take Latin because I thought it would help in other areas. Alas, no Latin in my public high school. The choices were French or Spanish. I did 4 years of French. One of my proudest moments in high school was spending 2 weeks in France and getting around just fine. For a 17 year old kid realizing I could actually speak and understand a foreign language was a huge confidence builder.

There are so many things one can or should do, to hopefully better understand there is a whole big world out there. For me, all of my most important growth moments have come when I am pushed out of my comfort zone.

Education needs to be varied because it is impossible to predict what you are going to need as the years go by. Learning how to learn is the most important thing anyone will ever learn. An organized approach that builds on basics that you have to lay down though it be dull as ditch water is just part of getting educated. It is work. It is a child's job. I know it is not popular to speak of education as work vs fun and exciting or what ever and often hard and dull work at that. If you dont learn to multiply you wont learn algebra which is a language helpful for future ventures in math should you need to go there.

Our university system which is broad based give you the option of changing your mind about what you always wanted to do with your life. Life is a long time. The British system is very focused to your chosen field. That can be good or bad. I did object to having to waste time on PE classes in college and having too many introductory classes but that was a function of where I went. You can hopefully choose to go elsewhere that meets your needs better.

I am astonished you had to take calculus and Latin in high school. Calculus came after Trig and Latin was dying out in high schools and I know I am considerably older than you. I was not allowed to take drafting but a friend and I managed to make them let us take mechanical drawing. The teacher simply ignored us. We were taught nothing in the class and had to manage on our own.

I took calculus in high school in the 70s.

Colleen, were you required to take calculus? The being required to take calculus is the odd part to me. You could always opt for calculus if you had the prerequisites. I wish I had Latin as an option in my first high school. My final high school had it but it was too late in the process for me.

Calculus was required at my high school only if you took Physics as well. Since I was planning on a technical field in college, I took both :-) They didn't offer Latin - since I am a plant geek, I wish they had although I was probably too young and uninformed about plants at that time of my life to take advantage of it. What I've learned of it has been through osmosis over the years.

I did take French all through middle school (Junior high school in those days) and high school - 6 years in total. And I took a French literature class as an elective in college. If I had to do over, I would have opted for Spanish instead so I could communicate properly with all the Hispanic landscape contractors I come into contact with.

Amylou, I think the best class for how to "finagle around HR" is sales training. Most people think that the idea is to express themselves and make their views known. But especially in a business situation, it's better to know your goal and actively listen to direct the conversation toward it. A good salesperson doesn't wing it, they have a plan in mind. They ask questions, listen to the answers and then use that information to get to the results what they want. You don't have to invest in a seminar, although it can be a very interesting way to spend the day. I recommend picking up a book by Tom Hopkins. I think you can even get him on an audiobook to listen to on your walks.

@Patriciae, it wasn’t a requirement- here the only requirements are an English course (straight English or English literature), a Maths course (Maths I - general maths, Maths II and III- higher maths which includes calculus), a Science course (Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Human Biology) and a Social Studies course (History, Economics, Geography, a language etc) and make up your other two or three courses with optionals. I did Maths II and III and Physics and Chemistry as I was planning on doing a Physics degree at University (in the end I left halfway through my degree and went off to do other things I liked better, but that’s another story 😁).

Our DIL teaches calculus to kids in Grades 6, 7, and 8 in a public grammar school in Chicago. Neither DH nor I ever took calculus in our suburban Chicago high schools in the 1950's.

Apparently public schools are introducing what used to be called advanced math, much earlier. A friend is teaching 5th graders algebra, variables, geometry. Basic level stuff, but still so much more advanced than was attempted in my elementary years. Probably a good thing, to catch them before they get convinced math is too hard or no fun.

Chisue, calculus in a public middle school? Wow!