Isn't a charley-horse an intense muscle spasm? That's what I call it when I get one. It's a terribly painful cramping in my foot and lower leg that has awoken me a few times in my life and only goes away when I stretch the muscles - but stretching can be difficult to do, and involves standing up and massaging the spasming muscles while stretching them. It's been so bad, for several minutes I couldn't even straighten out my foot to stand on it.

The muscle can stay rather sore for awhile after that - sometimes for a day.

As I age, I get many weird sensations that seem like nerves and muscles are misfiring: itching, twinges, ache-y & sore spots, etc. - but they're fleeting.

I always thought a Charlie Horse was the awful calf cramp that hit in the middle of the night. Adding Bananas or Avocados with the potassium, calcium and magnesium they contain to your diet really do help if its just a cramp.

As I learned something that feels like a muscle pull is sometimes not. Go to the doctor.

I get charlie horses and have toto massage them and soak in Epsom salts to get rid of them. This does not sound like charlie horses. I agree it is unclear what it is so it should be checked by a doctor. I personally would not wait for another episode. Good luck and take care.

I agree that you need to go to the doctor to get this checked out Oakley!

A charley horse is a sudden intense pain - not an ache.

I’m not a physician, but the fact that the area is warm to the touch is significant, perhaps indicative of DVT or an infection. I’d call your physician ASAP. You may need to be seen in Urgent Care or ER. I would not delay.

Ask your GP to at least run a D-Dimer test if that is positive follow with an ultrasound to rule out a clot. The night before my massive stroke I suffered horrible leg cramps.

Terezosa, the ache in my calf was when I was walking. It was gone five minutes later before I laid down. That's when a super painful spasm began. I could feel the muscle spazzing out and moving around like it was dancing to music. It stopped and that was it.

I've had them in the foot and I couldn't move until I stretched it. The calf didn't need stretching and that's what I'm trying to find out, if anyone had theirs in the calf while laying down, not standing.

I'm definitely going to keep an eye on this and see my dr. if need be and not wait around. The good thing is there wasn't any discoloration of the skin or noticeable swelling. It could have been a fat pocket because I was looking at the profile from knee to foot. :)

If it wasn't for Dr. Google I wouldn't know anything about the similarities of a charlie horse and DVT.

The joys as we age. As soon as one strange thing clears away, another hits!

if anyone had theirs in the calf while laying down, not standing.

I don't think that I've ever had a charley horse while standing. Normally laying down, sometimes sitting.

^^ same....and usually when I'm sleeping or falling asleep or waking up from sleeping.... you get the idea.

Your symptom that your skin felt warm worries me. Better safe than sorry! At the very least maybe call a nurse line and see what they say? Maybe take an asprin just in case?

My charlie horses have been happening since I was a kid. For me it seems to be linked to a big workout + dehydration. It only happens when I'm completely relaxed -- asleep, or having been laying on the couch for a long time. I'll yawn and stretch and suddenly BAM! A cramp so intense, it feels like the muscle is going to rip itself away from the bone. All I can do is curl up and do breathing exercises. Afterwards it feels sore for about 5 minutes -- as if it will repeat if I try to stretch again. I feel perfectly fine later, as if it never happened. I never see it coming, either, no warning ahead of time.

Please have that checked out...I have had charlie horse calves all my life...I keep magnesium lotion next to the bed...but I have NEVER had any warmth or swelling left over!

Retired nurse here. I would go to the er to get this checked out this eve. Especially since you have recently been ill. DVT needs attention right away & if that's not it, you will be reassured & not worry

^^^ THIS; I agree with Lizzie. Another retired RN here. Get it looked at. What’s the worst that can happen if you get it checked tonight? What’s the worst that can happen if you don’t? Keep us posted.

The easiest thing during business hours is to call your GP for a blood test. A negative ddimer rules out dvt a positive result would warrant a ultrasound. This is my protocol as a clotter. If on a weekend or night time then ER but you can avoid the ER if you call your on call doctor most likely.

I've heard charley horses can be a symptom of wrong salt or low potassium intake. During pregnancy was the worst time for almost nightly charley horses. Mine haven't been tough to diagnose as your calf gets hard as a rock it HURTS...I get them in my feet and toes too. Those muscles aren't as large so don't hurt as much. The way to get them to release is to palpitate the muscle or push your heel as hard as you can and try and get your toes as close to your ankles as possible.

A Charley horse is a cramp or a muscle spasm - same thing different names - and they can happen in any muscle. They can be extremely painful or mildly annoying (think of your eyelid twitching) but you are describing something different. You came asking for advice and several people with a medical background or personal experience with related health issues have advised you to be seen by a doctor. I really hope you do that and won't dismiss this any further. You can second guess and focus on symptoms that sound similar to other benign ailments - until you can't. Don't wait.

You probably have a magnesium deficiency, it's prevalent as we get older. I had it and now take a pill every day.

Also post-C it is something to be aware of, so please go ASAP, Oakley.

Sorry, I've been gone all morning. Gs, that's a great thought about Covid.

DLM, I have no idea what you're talking about. I was sleeping when I got a spasm in my calf that hurt & finally stopped. My calf did ache a bit an hour or so before, and maybe it was the muscle warning me it was going to spazz out. :)

I checked all of my tests results from a couple of months ago, they were normal.

That morning I had to remind myself to drink more water so I wouldn't get dehydrated, a main cause of spasms. Which was stupid of me to forget considering I'd been in the ER a month earlier because I wasn't drinking enough water.

FTR, I am taking this extremely serious and if I had any of the symptoms below I wouldn't be asking questions, but this was my first spasm in the calf.

Mayo Clinic

Symptoms

Most muscle cramps develop in the leg muscles, particularly in the calf. Besides the sudden, sharp pain, you might also feel or see a hard lump of muscle tissue beneath your skin.

When to see a doctor

Muscle cramps usually disappear on their own and are rarely serious enough to require medical care. However, see your doctor if your cramps:

• Cause severe discomfort
• Are associated with leg swelling, redness or skin changes
• Are associated with muscle weakness
• Happen frequently
• Don't improve with self-care
• Aren't associated with an obvious cause, such as strenuous exercise

Oakley I don't want to argue with you - I offered advice from the heart as did others and it is out of concern for you. You mentioned warmth at the sight of the pain which was the concerning part, particularly for people here with medical background. What I was talking about was the suggestions to not take this lightly, in case that was not clear. Many of us have had cramps/Charley horse pain but not accompanied by heat at the source. I've had them in calves, hamstrings, obliques and quads and they are painful but there is no heat to be felt at the sight of the pain. You're over 21 - as we say in my family to acknowledge someone making their own choices - and I'll respect your choice not to be seen by a doctor.

I've never called them charley horses, just muscle cramps. Horrible pain. Nothing quite comes close to one in each calf in the middle of the night. Only walking it out works for me.

Often I get them in my feet. It's not good when driving and it's my right foot.

I get leg cramps and I've had thrombosis in my leg. The pain of thrombosis is entirely different from a muscle spasm. For the muscle spasm, my leg actually takes a different shape, Nor so with thrombosis. The cramp works out in a relatively short time, no more than an hour. The thrombosis lasts for days.

We were just in a class prior to DH having knee replacement surgery. One of the things spend a lot of time going over is avoiding blood clots and what to look for. Being warm to the touch is one of the symptoms of a blood clot and should be checked. DO NOT rub the leg! That can dislodge a clot and cause a heart attack or stroke. Get it checked. They can check it with doppler and tell quickly and easily if there is a concern. Please.

My husband has had DVT. Warm and red means seek medical help.

If that's what it is you don't want it breaking off and traveling to your lungs.

Oakley, I'd feel better if you posted again, if just to tell us we are all worrywarts.

Sadly, when I lived in Virginia, my good friend lost her DH to a blood clot following knee replacement. They were both older and had only been married a few months. :( This was when I was in Australia and she was feeding my kitties. Luckily, another friend took over from her and then told me when I got home.

That is so sad, GS! It seems to happen so quickly too. One minute my dad was working on a small project in the bathroom (he was several weeks past his knee replacement and was encouraged to be as active as he was capable of being), and the next he collapsed and was being whisked away to the ER. Yikes.

You don't have to have surgery to develop a blood clot or DVT. They can develop from being laid up or in the same position for an extended time and dehydrated and are more likely if you are taking artificial hormones or you are a smoker. There are also a wide range of genetic conditions that can greatly increase your chances of getting a clot. Like Roarah, I have a clotting disease-- they are more prevalent than people know and aren't usually diagnosed until the individual or a family member has a clot or stroke.

Oakley surely knew the symptoms and the possibility of a DVT-- she's the one who posed it as a possibility in her OP.

For those who don't know.. some or all of these symptoms are a reason to be checked for a DVT.. but be aware, the presence of severity of any one of these may vary in individuals based on location of the clot, pain threshold, etc.

• throbbing or cramping pain in one leg -- usually in the calf or thigh.
• swelling in one leg/calf
• warm skin around the painful area.
• red or darkened skin around the painful area.
• swollen veins that are hard or sore when you touch them.

I have never had a clot but family members (who also have my genetic disease) have had them-- also strokes. The test for a DVT is an ultrasound of the leg-- which I have had. It's quick and easy and only a little uncomfortable. Far preferable to a pulmonary embolism which is scary, painful and has a high risk of death.

That pre-surgery class was scheduled for 3 hours and went about 4. The time was focussed on preparing yourself and home, getting your PT scheduled and sticking with it, preventing infection and preventing blood clots -- not in that order. They take infection and blood clots very seriously. I'm a little overwhelmed and a little concerned with all of this, but he says he is ready.

But I posted because I am concerned about Oakley. I hope she got it checked out. My dad had a clot, but it was not a deep vein one and he just needed to take medication for a few days. They can treat them so much easier than they can the complications of them - when you may only have minutes.

Lascatx, I'm so sorry! I misread your comment and was thinking your DH had already had his surgery. I would never have said what I did to raise your concerns about upcoming surgery. Your DH will in all likelihood sail through his replacement with zero issues. My mom did great with hers. It's incredible how quickly patients are up and around right after the procedure.

I also misread -- sending wishes for your DH's speedy and uneventful recovery! And like Ida, I know many who have been through a knee replacement with no issues or clots.

Lascatx, if it makes you feel better, DH and a good many of his cronies have had knee replacement surgery and not a blood clot amongst them. Obviously, it can happen, but I think the odds are on the side of it not happening. Take heart.

Thanks Ida, bbstx and Funkyart. DH has had 2 surgeries for hernia repair and both have been perfectly uneventful. I expect the same here. I'm more concerned about how grumpy and disagreeable DH may be the first week or so, but we can get through that. If he has a problem or even a question, we live 5 miles from the hospital and 2 miles from the firestation with EMS, have 3 doctors and a nurse living on our block. We won't be an hour or more away like some of the people who were calling in for the class. We know one person who had to have a knee replacement redone because it just didn't take, one who had an infection, one who blew the joint -- cuz he got on a ladder and fell before it was healed, and one who died during surgery -- apparently had a heart condition and they knew it was a risk. Not one who had a blood clot that we know of. But like I said, we know many people who have had joint replacements (knees, hips and shoulders) and most have no problems beyond complaining about the PT. I don't know of anyone who says they wish they hadn't done it . Besides, this one has to go well because my sister who needs it more than DH will be watching.

lascatx, I've had one knee replaced and know many others who have also and no blood clot. I would suggest if he hasn't already, he purchase an ice machine. It takes all the work out of icing and makes such a difference in inflamation. The procedure and recovery was a lot easier than I had expected.

DVT PSA
✔DVT (deep vein thrombosis) symptoms include skin discoloration, pain, swelling, and warmth; unfortunately ~half of pts don't experience symptoms.
✔DVT risk factors include immobility (long plane flight), post-surgical, obesity, smoking, pregnancy, cancer, stroke, hormone use, increased age.
✔DVT can dislodge and travel to lungs causing pulmonary embolism (PE), a life threatening condition, symptoms include chest pain and difficulty breathing.
✔DVT is diagnosed by ultrasound (better test, not usually available in urgent care) and blood test (d-dimer, too many false results).

Leg pain while walking may be claudication, caused by inadequate blood flow to legs, a symptom of peripheral vascular disease.

To answer your original question, yes, had "charley horse" muscle cramps. Most recently during early COVID, working long days not adequately drinking water due to inconvenience with mask wearing. Occurred during early sleep (yes, awoke thinking "omg, DVT!!!" intense but short duration, w/ symptoms that resolved completely), luckily improved hydration prevented further events.😊

Thanks -- always good to hear when things are easier than expected. That is mostly what I hear -- very few even having a lot of pain or problems if they follow directions. DH will do that when he knows he really needs to.

They will send DH home with the manual version of the ice cooler -- a thermal jug with a tube connected to an ice pack that he will have to slosh around every now and then to maintain the cool. They suggested he have additional ice packs for the back of the knee. One of the other customers in the medical supply store said she had a powered one and obviously really liked it. Is that what you had? I've read about one that says it stays cold 90 minutes, but the woman we were talking to said she was able to sleep through the night with hers. That might be worth getting or seeing if we can rent if it means not waking up several times each night for a few weeks.

FWIW, I understand being dehydrated makes blood 'stickier', which can lead to clots.

And you don't have to drink just water for hydration - fresh fruit, soups, juices, teas, coffee, and seltzer water all contribute to hydration. I think finding things you really like make it easier to get adequate fluids.

Lascatx DH’s doc did not like those circulating things like the woman wrote all night. He was concerned about tissue damage because people wear those things too long. He preferred a normal ice pack. His instruction was 20 minutes on and 20 off. I can’t remember for how long.

Bottom line: talk to your doc

lascatx, I didn't use the ice machine at night when in bed; just during the day. I only used 20 minutes on-20 minutes off. I used 16 oz. frozen bottled water and IIRC it takes 4 bottles and I kept extra bottles in the freezer, so I could rotate when one set started to thaw. The machine comes with pads that wrap around whatever limb is affected and the cooled water circulates thru a hose to the pad and back. I had a meniscus repair 8 years before the surgery and used the refreezable pads then; this was much simpler. It was recommended by friends who had already had the surgery. It's not any different than using ice packs, just easier, unless you abuse it, which you could also do with a conventional ice pack. I'm not trying to talk you into anything-just explain how it works and why I think it's so great.

Thanks again. DH's doctor said 20 on/20 off also. They showed us the one he will be sent home with -- nothing fancy but it should work. I had a meniscus repair years ago too -- use some inexpensive ice packs and did fine with them. I may get a couple more of those and we can rotate and try to figure out what works best. Of course, I just had my icemaker repaired (the supply line had a leak). It was working, then I replaced the water filter and now it is not working. I've now tried both filters I got off Amazon (same exact one I'd ordered before), so I can order another direct from the manufacturer and see whether the new ones are defective or whether the ice maker has decided it likes being on vacation too much. Either way, looks like I will be keeping the ice trays going a while longer. Oh, and I saw the idea of using frozen water bottles to keep the water cold -- I will try that too, especially while the ice maker issue gets worked out.

Oakley - hope all is well with you.

I developed DVT after a C-section years ago and needed anticoagulant injections.

Before my knee replacement I had blood studies done to see if I had a clotting disorder - fortunately I didn't.

Lascatx - i had both knees replaced at the same time 12 years ago and didn't use continuous cold therapy - probably because I stayed in the hospital for several days and then a physical therapy center for re-hab for 5 more days. I didn't have any complications but it is important to follow directions and do the therapy. The part I found surprising was how slow the initial progress was the first week. They do get you up and walking very quickly but it was the actual exercises where they measure your range of motion in inches and degrees that seemed slow to me.

DS had a nasty fall while skiing a few years which required major repair work to his knee. He bought one that looks like this and thought it was very helpful. Because of all the soft tissue damage he often has swelling around the knee after riding his bike or hiking and will use it.

Wishing you and your DH an uneventful surgery and recovery. And if it helps at all the pain is manageable. My worst problem was sleeping at night since I usually sleep on my side but with both knees done I had to sleep on my back. One neighbor just had his done and slept in his Lazy Boy for the first couple nights.

Maire

https://www.amazon.com/Cryotherapy-Combines-Compression-Essential-Injuries/dp/B07Y8MSQ9X/ref=sr_1_7?gclid=CjwKCAiA68ebBhB-EiwALVC-Nk1cKMJV4OWfeWQiy8sTDd-fkCGlGObHXDJNQsyDCFX5nVTKHTjBnBoCg6YQAvD_BwE&hvadid=224115673184&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9003800&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=3098070684383321151&hvtargid=kwd-297470216049&hydadcr=21688_9710865&keywords=continuous+ice+therapy+machine&qid=1668423024&sr=8-7&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.f5122f16-c3e8-4386-bf32-63e904010ad0

Thanks. That's the one they will be sending him home with. They showed it to us in the class last week. I think the range of motion is limited by the swelling in the first week, and PT and icing help improve that and avoid scar tissue that can limit things long term. They caution you that not doing PT and building up scar tissue leads to a brutal correction and more sedation. I had a meniscus repair and even that kept me limited by swelling at first. The good news is that means your body is doing what it needs to to help fight infection and heal, but life is always easier once it calms down. And he's only doing one so the other will bend. That must have been tough having both at once until things started moving again -- but I bet it was worth it to not have to do all the anesthesia, prep and general recovery twice. Hope they gave you a BOGO or something. LOL

If possible, I highly recommend in-patient rehab. DH had his knees done one at a time, a year apart. Both times he went directly from the hospital to in-patient rehab where he stayed for 2 weeks or so. He got PT in the mornings and OT in the afternoons. I really think his recovery was better and faster because he rehabbed in-patient.

The in patient rehab is only offered here if you meet certain criteria. I don't know what they are exactly, but they indicated at the class that very few do qualify and they weren't looking at us as exceptions. DH is mobile, healthy and active, has support and assistance, and we are less than 2 miles from the PT location and 5 from the hospital. It would be nice not to have to drive back and forth, but I'm glad we're close -- and I'll make sure he does the PT every day. That first week or two won't be fun, but we will be past it before Christmas.

DH’s doc recommended in-patient PT because DH was 6’3” and weighed 200 lbs, too big for me to handle. He was very mobile and healthy at the time. Played golf nearly every day. It was more that I could not pick him up if he fell, nor could I adequately support him if/when he had to go somewhere. But I realize every case is different.

I can assist but couldn't pick DH up if he fell. I don't know many people who could pick up their spouse. Like I said, they didn't share what qualifies anyone for a hospital stay or in-patient services/rehab other than not urinating and not being able to walk 50 feet. But I'm not going to let him leave if I don't think it will be safe for him to come home. I've had some practice with such things.

So back when this was posted I opened and read it as I hadn't heard the the term Charley Horse and all I remember about it was the discussion of a DVT and the symptoms.

I want to thank each and everyone of you who contributed to this thread with symptoms and Oakley for posting it initially. You all made me seek medical attention without any delay when a little over a month ago I experienced many of the DVT symptoms posted here. If I hadn't read this thread I would have delayed seeking medical attention as I wouldn't have recognized what it was at all and just have waited it out. Thanks to this thread which I had only opened out of curiosity I knew exactly what I had when the redness and heat symptoms showed up. Tingling, and then swelling was unfortunately my first symptom and it showed up a few days before the heat and redness and I didn't think much of it until the last occurred as I had been lifting suitcases, wheels and tires etc. However, when I saw the redness and it felt warm I knew thanks to this thread that I needed to be seen.

So again thank you all for the education as I believe it saved me from myself (reluctant to seek medical help for just some swelling) and I'm so glad it was fairly recent that I'd read it.

My DVT was more unusual in that it was in my arm and from my clavicle to the elbow and not my leg as many are. Now I'm just waiting to figure out the cause and at this point I'm hoping it is either due to a folate/vitamin b12 deficiency or a clotting disorder vs. the only other cause mentioned here that would apply to me which is the C word. I was at one point tested for some common clotting disorder due to pregnancy losses, but not sure if that covered all or if you can develop one at a later time.

Again Thank you! This board is so invaluable in so many ways.

Glad you were made aware and sought help quickly.