seeking kitchen layout feedback

2 years ago

We are in the home stretch of our kitchen remodel design, and after several layout iterations, have landed on this one. I still feel like it’s not quite there, but can’t pinpoint why.
The scope will include squaring off the wall where the fridge is so there is a larger section of straight counter, though I have to sacrifice the fridge being bumped out.
I am thinking of making the island 42 or 48” wide, and offsetting a bit toward the window to open circulation space on the plan south area.
Otherwise, the cabinet design still keeps me curious- is there anything better we can do?
I have elevations too if they would help.
Thank you!

Featured Answer

mama goose_gw zn6OH

2 years ago

If the windows in the bay are at 36" from the floor, and the windows in the other bump-out are at 24", it seems that the bay was the intended area for cabinetry, and the other bump-out the intended area for seating.

I really like rebunky's two plans with the clean-up zone in the square bump-out. Moving the range to the fridge wall means the windows in the bay don't need to be altered. My preference would be the one with the prep sink in the bay, and I'd still recess the sink and DW into the other bump-out, to provide more aisle space around the island.

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Comments (47)

Lisa Dipiro
2 years ago
You can’t be at the sink and clean up as the trash and dw open into your legs
Fridge is sooooo far away from sink
Lisa Dipiro
2 years ago
You can make the island shorter and deeper and turn it the other direction otherwise if people are seated they’re looking out a door and can’t converse with the cook
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I know remodeling a kitchen is exciting, but there are, unfortunately, many issues here. You've taken a good first step by posting your layout here for critique. Please keep in mind that we're trying to help, so do not take anything we tell you personally. At the end, I'll post links to the Kitchen Design FAQ threads that will help you understand what we are saying. . The aisles are a major issue here - unless you are the only person living in this home and you don't have visitors who help in the kitchen. Until I hear otherwise, I'm going to assume there are at least two of you in your home. . Aisles... You show an island with seating (at least I think that's what you have) with aisles that are too narrow even as single-person work aisles all around. Note: Aisles are measured counter edge-to-counter edge or to/from appliance door/handles, etc. - i.e., they're measured b/w the items that stick out into the aisle the farthest. It appears your aisles are measured cabinet-to-cabinet - so your aisles are 3" narrower than the labels indicate. Counter overhangs are around 1.5", so counting on both sides of the aisle, you have 3" less. Where there's an appliance on an aisle, you need to measure the aisle width from the handle, which, again, is not done on your layout. E.g., the 39" aisle b/w the island and sink wall is only 36" when it's counters, but it's even less in b/w the refrigerator and island unless the refrigerator is a true built-in and not a counter-depth. (Counter-depth refrigerators are actually 31" deep when you include the doors & handles.) 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Lisa Dipiro
2 years ago
I’d switch stove with sink so you cAn vent right out. Have dw sink trash lined up straight
anj_p
2 years ago
A peninsula works better in your space.

I would also move the sink to the island or peninsula. The space in the bay area is too cramped.
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
We are removing a peninsula to add the island. Why would a peninsula be better?

Regarding seating, seating is plan south on the island, looking into kitchen and out the window.

The stove has a vent through attic already and isn’t it better to have light coming through the window to the sink vs a window above a stove?
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
@johnson brothers - agree the redo doesn’t make sense. But we are committing a lot. In Your view there is no layout that would work? Why? Because of the bay?
Mrs Pete
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
You can’t be at the sink and clean up as the trash and dw open into your legs
Fridge is sooooo far away from sink

A peninsula works better in your space.

The above are the things that also jumped out at me.

Peninsula first ... the island just doesn't work at all in your space ... it's too far from the main work area for convenience. On the other hand, if you make it into a peninsula (I know, not trendy, but no one who goes for an-island-at-any-cost is happy with the results), it gives you drawers and work space RIGHT THERE in the main work area. The peninsula works in the space you have.

If you don't want a peninsula, I'd say scrap the island altogether and go with a 4-person round breakfast table between the kitchen and the living room. The island you've drawn is essentially a breakfast table ... that costs a fortune and doesn't really fit in your space. One way or the other, the island's gotta go. It's the problem you say you can't pinpoint.

Second, the fridge ... you want your three main players (sink, stove, refrigerator) to be no closer than 4 foot /no farther than 9 foot apart from each other. Your fridge is too far away for convenience, and it lacks a "landing spot" ... a spot to set down what you remove from the fridge /set down a casserole dish as you move things to make space for it. If you move the stove over to the peninsula, the refrigerator can move closer, forming a real work triangle ... and then you have good storage "beyond" the work triangle.

Finally, the dishwasher /sink problem. As you've drawn it, your sink is rather like a corner sink ... you won't be able to stand at the sink and load dishes into the dishwasher ... the opened dishwasher door will be in the spot you need to stand, so you'll end up reaching and over-stretching your back. This will be miserable. What you need to do is -- again, the peninsula -- place the dishwasher in the peninsula. This is one step less convenient than a dishwasher RIGHT NEXT TO the sink, but it's what you can have in this bay window configuration. You'll stand sideways at the sink and place dishes in the dishwasher. I've had this layout in a U-shaped kitchen, and it works.

I did a sketch-up, but somehow Houzz won't allow me to post it this morning.
mama goose_gw zn6OH
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
This a is a bit of a shake-up and probably involves more work than you want to do, because I suspect the square bump-out has a low window, and all windows in the bay would need to be redone. OTOH, you already have plumbing on the wall for the prep sink ;).

Primary prep would be the yellow lines, with secondary prep on the island. Helpers could load or unload the DW, or gather dishes to set the table, without entering the prep and cooking spaces. The counter between the cleanup sink and range could also be used for prep if you have multiple helpers.

The clean-up sink is offset to the window, but the faucet is centered to help disguise the asymmetry. I didn't add cabinet boxes around the range (my paint program does not work well on diagonals--see thick black lines), but there would be more space wasted in the base cabinets because they'd need to clear the oven door handles when open.

Aisle behind seating (south) seems sufficient for traffic circulation.

(I'm also not able to post a pic at this time--maybe later.) Link to pic
PRO
RappArchitecture
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
What if you squared off the bay and made it 2 feet deep, so that the edge of counter aligns with the adjacent exterior wall. Then you've solved the sink/dishwasher/trash issue. You could also add more windows across the front of the bay to create much better natural light in the whole room. This layout allows the island to be rotated and moved closer to the work space, better integrated into the kitchen.

As for the refrigerator, I personally don't think it's too far from the sink. But it could be slid up on the plan, closer to the sink, and the resulting space in the corner used for a reach-in pantry. Food storage would be grouped together and there would still be ample counter space, especially if the island were rotated.
Mindy Thomas
2 years ago
I agree with those about the apliance placement and island, it looks disconnected from the kitchen. Not sure if you're keeping appliances and water lines in there current location, but I've attached a rough layout that would be more functional and aesthetically pleasing. Good luck!
emilyam819
2 years ago
I was thinking the same as Mindy Thomas. There is no layout in which anything except a table in the bay would work. (Wasn’t the bay built for a table?)
I’d shorten the island a bit.
On the other hand, it would be awesome to eliminate the bay. Then you’d have lots of possibilities. But not cheap.
Mrs Pete
2 years ago
I like EmilyAm's idea! Perhaps go with banquette seating in the bay window to save space.
rebunky
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Yes, I agree that your proposed design is not good. I think what could be bothering you is that the island looks like an afterthought. It doesn’t feel like a functioning part of the kitchen. It seems like it would function mostly as bar seating and some extra less used storage. I guess I would use the right corner of the island as drop zone to unload groceries into the fridge. That is, as long as someone was not sitting there. The fridge looks pretty far from the sink.

I drew up this peninsula plan. It probably won’t fly since it seems everyone has their heart set on an island. I get it. I did too!

Before posting, I just saw mama goose’s link to her layout idea. Nice! We had a similar thought as far as moving the range into the bay area. Like she said, you would need to close up the middle window and add two windows on the sides.

I had this drawn up with the range, but then I exchanged it for a cooktop and a separate wall oven. You could keep the range. I was just thinking some people might like to stand on the side of the oven to remove things like a turkey. The angles do limit that. It isn’t an issue for me because I never do that. I always remove stuff from the front. Just thought I’d mention it in case. I do like that the main prep and cleanup zones would be facing those seated on the peninsula, the living room, and out the angled window.

The other ideas are great too!

Shoots mine won’t post either.
anj_p
2 years ago
OP might be gone, but just in case - the peninsula is better because it's more useful and it's IN the kitchen. The island is (as others have mentioned) an afterthought and not very functional as a part of the kitchen. It really just acts as a kitchen table that can't move. At least it is in your current layout. If you can't move gas/water lines, your best bet is to keep the peninsula.

If you CAN move gas/water, then I also like Emily's plan.
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
Not gone- absorbing all of these many ideas!
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
This is another one of the plans. It shows things squared off. I am ok with relocations but want an island, and don’t prefer a sink or stove on the island. The space is big enough that I know it can work, but not so big that having a fridge more than an arms length away is a sin :)
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
Heres another plan
emilyam819
2 years ago
Leo Z, I’m not seeing the new plans. Yesterday my pics appeared when using the app on my phone.
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
Apologies uploading pics isn’t working well! Trying again.
Lisa Dipiro
2 years ago
Turn the island the other direction 3 foot aisle one end then 4 foot aisle refrigerator and
Put the microwave drawer on stove wall
Put trash sink and dw in Island.
Lisa Dipiro
2 years ago
Yu only need four feet between range wall and island but 5 is good if a lot of helpers in the kitchen
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
We dont want the island for working functions(sink, dw, stove) good idea on rotating!
rebunky
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
If this were my kitchen remodel, I would do something like this.
Get rid of the bay and the other bump out.
To me they are making it next to impossible to layout a nice kitchen that flows and looks beautiful. I would not settle for a dysfunctional and imho not very attractive kitchen just to keep them.
The last layout you posted is basically the same as the first one, except now it totally destroys the symmetry of the bay. Not that the angled walls were perfect before, but at least they were close. That would drive me insane.
I would put the fridge on the left end of the straight north wall, then add a nice big window over the sink. The island would be parallel to to this wall.
The range would be on the east wall. Range and island are centered on the cased opening.
The upper cabinets flanking the range are symmetrical. The corner is an easy reach cabinet. Then the cabinets flanking the window are also symmetrical. I kinda like symmetry if you haven’t noticed. Haha!
I wasn’t sure what the specs were for the fridge. I made it regular depth. I put a spacer next to the wall just in case, so the door can fully open.
I didn’t think through how I would change up the base cabinets.
I would for sure have a 36” dish drawer cabinet with the top drawer for silverware on the island. I love mine because it is so easy to unload from the DW across the isle from it.
I would try and make the isles between the L shape perimeter to the island 48” if that still allows enough space behind the bar seats.
Hopefully my drawing will post this time! I am trying it on my phone with the app since that worked for emilyam.
rebunky
2 years ago
Ok trying this again. I went to edit something and then the photo disappeared.
I had messed up the uppers on range wall ending at the bottom corner. I was thinking it worked out for them to be equal sizes on the sides of the range, but there was a small space left. Those uppers don’t have to match of course! I guess you could do a skinny pullout pantry for canned food/jars, etc. there since you have plenty of countertop space.
PRO
Kathryn Peltier Design
2 years ago
OK, I truly believe that this is completely workable with a few tweaks. The refrigerator looks awkward so angle the countertop next so it mirrors the angle near the sink.

What is the sill height of the bay? I think this is the other problematic area because it looks unfinished. If it is the 27" indicated - or whatever it is, the assumption obviously that it is under 36" - build in either a bench or low cabinets in front of it, and return to 36" at the left, adjacent LR corner. This will kind of bookend the lower section.

You could also add 12"d cabinets all along the stair wall. This might be a bit tighter than you want, but it would be a huge amount of storage.

Don't overthink this - it will work well. You just need to eliminate the cabinet ends kind of hanging out in space.
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Funny, if you can see the plans they show existing/demo the counter by the fridge is angled now. i assumed to remove it to get more usable cabinet space. the angles eat inside storage.

thx for the tips, man im stuck and its eating at me.

sill height of the bay is approx 36”. it sits above existing sink. height of window in open area is approx 24”
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Here is my current thinking. It’s not practical to remove the bay. It’s integrated into the design of the enter house. I think it’s just a matter of getting the flow better. Island needs a bit of shape tweaking. Feedback?
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
Here we go!
emilyam819
2 years ago
Where’s the dining room? It should be close to the cleanup sink, but the cleanup sink is shoved in the bay. (This plan is better, but I still think a table belongs in the bay.)
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
I expect the island would act as seating .

we dont use a kitchen table based on our lifestyle.

dining room is plan south west. plan south is a butler pantry with plenty of storage. so, no, there wont be a sink on top of dining..
cubby14
2 years ago
I think you need to pretend to cook a meal in the proposed kitchen layout. It seems so far from your major appliances to each other and very inefficient.
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
Based on the dimensions provided? everything is within a 4’ radius is that too far?
cubby14
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Ah I'm sorry I was confused with the drawing What is the aisle space between the island and range? I would want that to be 48". Mine is similar with almost back to back sink and stove and with only 42 inches between it could use a bit more. I would make the island a bit narrower and give that space to the aisle if needed.
rebunky
2 years ago
I am confused too. Are the labels written in red what you are proposing? Is the huge blue rectangle the island?
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
@rebunky correct i applied a layout markup (on my phone apologies as i am traveling) over a proposed plan
anj_p
2 years ago
I think the layout you had before the markup was way better.

You say you don't want a sink in the island but it's the best layout by far that you're going to get, IMO. Your new markup just makes the kitchen a bit of an obstacle course. The DW door will be a tripping hazard. The island still acts as a kitchen table, not a kitchen workspace. I don't know where the seating would be but either people are staring at a wall or they're in the way of the fridge.

It's your kitchen so you need to do what you want but I really think you should reconsider the island sink. Trying to avoid it is making everything else worse.
anj_p
2 years ago
I think the layout you had before the markup was way better.

You say you don't want a sink in the island but it's the best layout by far that you're going to get, IMO. Your new markup just makes the kitchen a bit of an obstacle course. The DW door will be a tripping hazard. The island still acts as a kitchen table, not a kitchen workspace. I don't know where the seating would be but either people are staring at a wall or they're in the way of the fridge.

It's your kitchen so you need to do what you want but I really think you should reconsider the island sink. Trying to avoid it is making everything else worse.
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
Thank you! fyi the dw is in the same place in all layouts, so i am not sure its a hazard with this one, specifically. We will keep working on it!
anj_p
2 years ago
In the layout you wrote over, the dw and sink were both in the island.
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
Thats why i wrote over it :-)
Julie B.
2 years ago
I really like Emily's plan with the sink in the island and the range on the "south" side of the plan. It utilizes the entire width of the room.

I think the bay wouldn't have to have a table if you did that. If you had lower cabinets/counter continue from the "east" wall, you could have an undercounter wine refrigerator there with all your wine glasses, or put a little sink there and have it be a place for coffee/tea/hot chocolate, or you could have a beverage refrigerator and built-in ice maker there with maybe one of those cute countertop popcorn makers, if your family would enjoy that.
Leo Z thanked Julie B.
rebunky
2 years ago
Ok, here are a couple ideas. I tried to respect your requirements of no sink on the island and no major demo. Well it might involve a little bit. 😉 I believe you said you were open to moving plumbing so hopefully it is possible to make the one low window above counter height. Plan is not to scale of course.
In the first one, I made the fridge a 36” standard depth. I tried to show the zones using different colored ovals as mamagoose did. You want those different kitchen task zones not overlapping if at all possible. Slight overlapping is fine.
The second one adds a small prep sink to the bay.
Now just imagine those ovals in the plans you are proposing. Again the red oval is the main chef, the green is a secondary person helping with prep, and blue is someone helping with washing dishes or loading or unloading the dw, etc.. They all need to access water and the only sink is crammed into the bay with the angled dw, blocking half of it. Don’t you think that would be highly annoying? At least put the dw on a counter to the left of the bay and have it opening towards the range. I do hope the best for you.
Leo Z thanked rebunky
rebunky
2 years ago
This is kind of what I was thinking to at least give you some space to stand while you load the dw. I still really dislike it. I guess if it was for only one butt in the kitchen maybe. But see what I mean by zone overlap?
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
@User the bay in its original design has the sink under the window. i would imagine thats why the bay is 36” aff and the area on the other side of the peninsula is 24” aff, as seating was there
Leo Z
Original Author
2 years ago
@rebunky yes the current layout is annoying :) i am trying to see what would make the most sense and everything ive laid out points me to keeping the current config. i like your idea and design, thank you! let me see whats the most feasibile in your elements based on the current infra and basement access
Leo Z
Original Author
2 months ago
Final layout and finished product. To those that felt the fridge is ‘too far away’, the 5 steps to the sink really aren’t a deal breaker :)
Layout: opened the space and squared off working functions so there isn’t overlap.
Separated working areas so cooking, washing, prep, and coffee/drinks can be simultaneous.

This led to a guest bath Reno which worked out really nicely, as well.

Lesson learned: I would have had the island further away from the stove by 6” just for more separation. Not a deal breaker though.

Design: ‘connecting to nature’ is my theme, tying to outdoors and the wooded area.

Materials etc:
Custom cabinets with custom color to complement flooring and tie to other areas of the house.
Flooring: maintained wide plank pine, sanded to natural color. Finished with bona mega. Had to piece some sections due to layout changes. Barely had enough! That was scary.
Hood is custom and painted to match the range. Makeup air system hidden. All working components and wiring are accessible in attic. I made a 24v current switch so makeup and exhaust work together. All ducting is custom to keep system noise free.
Lighting is color adjustable recessed for working, and pendants, sconces and under counter for accent. I toyed with going full low voltage but sourcing fixtures with the design I wanted got too hard. Each of the 4 zones are independently switched.
Stone took forever to find. It’s a manufactured veneer. Really nice because it’s light weight and thin, max thickness is 1”. All true stone veneers were way too heavy looking, and heavy! I opted for zellige backsplash behind range and coffee counter for ease of cleaning and to add a nice contrast.

I wound up making a lot of things on my own because I couldn’t find what I wanted. The corbels and sconce backing plates are pine from a tree I milled, which I stained to match the cabinets.

I couldn’t find a good painter to do glazing so did it myself. Painted it to give a rustic feel but durable and easy to clean. The painting connects to adjacent living room. Sea sponged with 3 colors. I have some trim work to finish (the windows and base molding).