This is not set up to function efficiently by a significant margin. The only sink in the kitchen area consists of a double bowl composed of two undersized basins. The location is back-to-back with the cooktop/range. Two people need more clearance to work. This is the only wet prep area. It's too far from the main refrigerator columns, although you have undercounter refrigeration closer for some things. And more undercounter in the Butler's with a sink. But that space is cramped and wouldn't be fun to work in. The major island work zone where you'd have connection with everyone lacks separation from the place setting space needed for the seating opposite on the island. So, more space between the range and sink or offsetting them. And a wider island. . .The two oven stacks are far enough away from everything to not clash. A 48" gas cooktop or range needs a 54" or more exhaust hood and makeup air system. An induction cooktop would need less. The range section lacks wide lower storage drawers on the drawing. I'd add those as 36-48", whatever fits. Wider is better.

Waht the heck are you doing in this plan? To start a butlers pa try is a space between the kitchen and the DR I have no clue whay yours is Bigger is not better in kitchen design and unless you cook for 20 3 x a day no one needs a 48"cooktop with all the expense of the venting. A sink directly across from a cooking appliance is very bad design. Get an actual indepedant KD to start . As for the choice of ovnes why not get a range with a steam oven and be done IMO Wolf is overrated and over priced there are a ton of options for good gas ranges . Appliances do not need to come all from one maker since there is no one maker that makes everything well and Wolf is a good example. Think about how you cook that is how you buy applainces. The layout you have is going to require roller skates to prepare a simple meal . BTW there is no way to design a kitchen until the appliances are bought so back up the bus

Regarding your specific questions: mostly I hear that the small ovens in 48" ranges are not very functional. No one will notice if your appliances don't match.

However I agree with the below responses. The kitchen design is poor - appliances all over the place, multiple cleanup zones, main walkways straight through work zones, ovens not only in a walkway, but at an intersection... how many refrigerators do you need? Main fridge/freezer not even in the kitchen work zone...almost zero storage in the kitchen proper for prep tools...(one 24" drawer stack isn't enough). I really think you need to simplify this A LOT. And get a KD. And maybe revise your house plans so your kitchen isn't a thoroughfare to 5 different rooms. (hope it's not too late for that). Just from this snippet, you are building an expensive house. It would be a shame to have a dysfunctional kitchen.

This comment is more that just an appliance review, though I am not alone reading the other comments.

I see you've reduced the scullery and added that prep space in the main kitchen. However, the "wall massing" of the Scullery being centered on the stove is causing trouble with your kitchen functions. The forced symmetry is lost with the Pantry and what lines the "walls" adjacent to the Kitchen anyway. As long as there is a wall behind the stove and you've set up your fireplace/island/stove alignment you desire, there is no need to force symmetry behind that stove wall or the functions adjacent to the Kitchen. I still think the key to this is maneuvering the Offices and moving the Pantry down closer to the Mudroom.

The ovens are not well placed behind seating and in circulation by the island or to the Dining Room. I gather Roman wants an immediate step to coffee, but the beverage station would be much better placed where the ovens are now. Is he the only one to ever have beverages throughout a day or gatherings, or will anybody else use it? If no one else, put a Kuerig in his office instead.

The ref/freezer still do not understand why they are placed in the adjacent plane to circulation to the Sunroom and so far from prep (even accounting for the island ref drawer).

Ditch the pocket door to your Office, they are useless for soundproofing. Also ditch the barn door to the Sunroom, it doesn't look like it is a good fit for the style emanating from the plan layout (there a pocket door could work).

Is this a Kosher kitchen?

Some good points on the overall design above. I think for me the biggest issue is how far to the frig.

On appliances... A lot depends on what you cook, want to cook, how often, for how many and how much entertaining of what type you do. I'm guessing that you cook/bake a fair amount? If so then I'd certainly look at a BS RNB gas range. A good gas oven is good to have and it's overall a much better cooking tool than Wolf. For us the Miele oven with moisture plus was the winner over others and along with the CSO has worked well.

More: https://bamasotan.us/2020/12/the-kitchen/

I really appreciate the feedback here. Below are a few points in response. Additional feedback following these points would be greatly appreciated:

1. At this point we don't have a lot of flexibility with making big architectural changes, however, we can definitely consider rearranging appliance placement. In coming up with this design we were a bit limited with our options for the kitchen lay out, in that we desire direct access to our kitchen from the adjacent rooms: 4 Season porch, offices, dining, and butler pantry. We want the kitchen to be the "heart" of our home and be accessible from these areas. With this in mind, we weren't able to do "full walls", which of course limits our options.

2. To the comment regarding the kitchen sink, the sink CAD does not represent our actual sink, it is simply a symbol showing that is where our sink will be placed. As for the sink being directly across from our rangetop, I am not too concerned about that. There is 4 feet of space between the two and this is a very common set up in kitchens, if the sink is within the island.

3. I completely agree about the fridge/freezer placement. What do you all think about the fridge freezer being shifted further west on that same wall (west is toward the range), thus opening up the nearby entry to the 4 Season Porch, and also allowing the pantry to expand a bit (not necessarily needed, but there would then be space there to do it. This change would bring the fridge/freezer columns roughly 3 feet closer to the island and range.

4. Yes, we have a lot of refrigeration going on here. Our fridge column will likely change to a 30" column, the fridge drawers in the island are for produce that I prep at the island multiple times a day. One of the main things I do in the kitchen is chop/prep produce, so these drawers are for convenience and to eliminate multiple walks to the fridge. My husband does a ton of smoothie prep and that is why we have the fridge/freezer drawers in the butler pantry. That area will be used daily by him to do the smoothie prep. We may still do a counter depth fridge/freezer in this space, as it is more cost effective, however, the drawers are nice because they allow more counter space.

5. Someone mentioned lack of prep tool storage. The drawers in the island are not our only tool drawers. We will also have drawers under the range, and along both sides of the range.

6. @3onthetree, we are torn about the coffee bar location, and would love further thoughts. We are currently thinking we would like our coffee appliances out of the way. We have a whole line up: grinder, espresso machine, drip machine, tea kettle, etc. However, we are not completely opposed to moving it where the double ovens are. If we do so, would you advise putting the double ovens next to the steam oven? Would the double ovens be in close enough proximity to the main kitchen? Would it look odd to have three 30" oven exteriors all clumped together vs separated as they are in the current sketch (as noted above the steam oven also has a slightly different look from the double oven stack)? It seems the coffee bar is still accessible to guests where it is at, though I understand it's not as "welcoming" in the current location.

7. @Patricia Colwell Consulting, our butler pantry is not meant for catering (the main reason some are in close proximity to the dining room). Ours is to be used for keeping dirty dishes out of the main kitchen after hosting, keeping larger appliances out of the main kitchen (i.e., stand mixer, coffee appliances, and Vitamix), and for daily smoothie prep by my husband (a 15 minute process in our family and one that works well separate from the main kitchen).

Again, I do appreciate continued feedback, keeping in mind that at this point we can't make a lot of big architectural changes. Thanks!

This isn't perfect, but perhaps it will give you some ideas...

The coffee bar is now near where people actually drink the coffee. You will want a sink and garbage there as well, so that you aren't tromping across the kitchen to fill the pot or throw out grounds constantly.

A full size (albeit small) fridge is now near to where you actually need the food. For example, take a look at sub-zero's up/down options in 30". You could put a separate fridge and freezer in the butler pantry which would make up for lost cold storage and would provide your husband with a place for his smoothie materials.

Unless you are habitually cooking for huge gatherings, a 36" range should be more than sufficient. It will also be easier to vent. Have you looked at Miele's convection ranges? Every person I know who has one will never go back to gas.

I would absolutely get a miele steam oven - it has been life changing for me. Stack it with a conventional oven (perhaps a warming drawer underneath) and call it a day.

No oven under the range - large drawers for pot storage.

Hutch for storing/displaying dishes and glassware. Not perfect because it's a bit far from the dishwasher when putting things away, but I would make that trade off to have the fridge in the main area. Full height cabinetry in that pass through because you'll never actually use counter space in that area anyways.

I like Andy's suggestion to relocate the coffee bar, but not the fridge location. OP's idea to shift the fridge toward the cooktop run is a good one. How do you feel about moving the freezer to the little alcove that creates? IIRC, nightowl's kitchen has the fridge on one side of an entry in a similar layout; it was a big question during her planning posts, but after the kitchen was finished she reported that it was fine.

Sink location relative to the cooktop is OK, IMO, since we prep to one side or the other. I wouldn't get too invested in the idea that you're going to truck all your prepping and cooking vessels and utensils to the 'butler pantry'. I think that will get old soon, but if your husband wants it as his own private smoothie playground, great idea.

I don't have any advice re: appliance choices.

I would go for all 3 ovens. It sounds like you prefer the functions of said ovens. Also, I personally much prefer wall ovens to under-range ovens. They're just too low for me and my back, and they interfere with the storage I want in each place - pots and pans under the rangetop, cookie sheets and serving trays under/over the wall ovens.

I have to also say that I see a lot of issues with your layout. I would never ever want my prep/cooking mixed up with my cleanup zone, nor would I want my dirty pots and pans on display on the island, if I had the space that you do (or even if I didn't). Here are some layouts that might spark ideas. I reconfigured your fridge, trash, and island sink to keep the "snackers" and "dumpers" on the perimeter of the kitchen. I also reconfigured your island to give you a huge stretch of space.

Option A:

Option B:

Option C:

Option D:

By the way, you will not be able to have the two stools on the short ends of the island as shown. They are each sharing knee space with the stool around the corner, which doesn't work in real life. You can reduce the cabinetry on the island and make sure you have the 15" overhang all along each of the short sides to fix this if you want to keep those 2 stools.

I took a peek at a previous post of yours to see a bit more of your floorplan. If you can, maybe consider moving the door to the dining room over so it doesn't line up directly with your cooking zone, then put the fridge & wall ovens on that wall, all in a row. Having the fridge close to the dining room would be A+++. And honestly, in that location you wouldn't' need produce drawers in your island because your regular fridge is actually in your work zone. If you can't move that doorway, c'est la vie, but the fridge still works WAY better on that wall. I'd actually put the fridge/freezer together and put the microwave in the island.

Regarding possible rearranging...

Just in case...

Consider putting Roman's office where your pantry is (obviously making it much bigger), and moving the pantry to where Roman's office is. That also puts your pantry closer to your garage for the hauling of groceries.

Option F. If you can play around with the walls of the Butler's Pantry a bit, this is my favorite.

Where is the dining room--top of the plan or the entry at the bottom?

In addition to all the other issues and considerations, as a safety consideration be sure that the cooktop/range position meets the manufacturer's installation requirements with respect to distances to combustibles. These distances include the direction into the wall. In high power cases, either a back-guard (riser) will be needed, or the wall made of non-combustibles all the way through.

@tracie_erin, and others, here is one ore scenario to think about:

-Extend the current double oven wall to make room for 30" column fridge, steam oven with warming drawer, and 30" column freezer.

-Place double ovens where current steam oven is.

-Keep large sink and dishwasher in island, and eliminate fridge drawers, making room for more "prep drawers".

*This scenario is if we decide a separate sink/dishwasher space isn't a good idea and if we can extend the double wall oven wall a bit (I'm unsure about this because it would affect the upper and lower level and likely increase cost).

@tracie_erin, oh no, prior to my comment above, I wrote a post with lots of feedback regarding your wonderful ideas; thanking everyone for their thoughtful suggestions. I also included a PDF of our main floor plan for reference. I no longer see this post. Hopefully you all see it on your end. If not, I will have to retype later today :(...

Post #2 that I don't think came through this morning...

@tracie_erin and others, thank you so very much for taking the time to give me your input. I am so incredibly grateful as I am really inspired by your feedback. It was so helpful to see some altered sketch ideas and I appreciate the time it took to do that.

Here are the adjustments I plan to definitely do:

-Eliminate the wrap around rangetop wall cabinets/counters.

-Move the coffee bar and undercounter beverage fridge directly across from the breakfast nook.

-Place a 30" column fridge where the current double ovens are.

-Eliminate one of the end island stools and put in an undercounter microwave.

Questions I still have:

-I like @tracie_erin's suggestion about having a sink, pull out garbage, and dishwasher in the prior 30" steam oven location, as I think it would be great to have dirty dishes out of the way and not on the island. I also love how this adjustment allows for more prep space/storage in the island. However, I am still a little undecided on this change, as the sink would be facing a wall, as opposed to a window, and is a little out of the norm. I would love input from others regarding this suggestion, as the idea is growing on me. (I've inserted @tracie_erin's updated sketch for reference).

-If I do the separate location for the sink and dishwasher, would I do a regular size sink in the new location and in the island?

-If I do a regular size sink in the island, is it still ok from a design perspective to have it be off-center, or will it look odd? Or, should I keep the sink centered, and forego the longer utensil drawers (I think I have room to put some drawers on the range wall as well). I could also eliminate refrigeration drawers, though I was excited about the idea of having my produce all right there, as I'm constantly chopping produce.

Changes I would like to make if it's possible from an architectural stand point (our upper and lower level have already been designed, but can still potentially be altered-fingers crossed):

-Lengthen the wall where the current double ovens are and insert 30" fridge column, steam oven with warming drawer, and 30" freezer column.

-Move one office to the pantry location and pantry to where Roman's office is currently placed.

@mama goose_gw zn6OH, you asked about our dining room placement. I will attach a picture of our whole main level for reference.

Again, I would love any and all feedback, especially in regard to going with a separate sink, pull out garbage, dishwasher zone. Also, any opinions on offsetting the sink in the island to increase prep and storage space.

Thank you all so very much!!

So, you have the scullery, which should be where you do your dishwashing...

I think what's missing is a concrete idea of how you want to use each space in your kitchen. Is the scullery just a smoothie room? Or is it legit where you want to have dirty dishes being washed? I might not love bringing pots and pans back there, myself, but it also seems like a lot of space to dedicate to smoothies.

I think moving the fridge & freezer columns and ditching the fridge drawers in the island is a definite go. Also moving the coffee bar near the breakfast nook is great.

Having a cleanup sink facing a wall is not really that big of a deal. I had a window sink in my last house, and for most of the year when I washed dishes it was dark out and I had the blinds down anyway, so it was almost like being at a wall. Most dishes go straight into the dishwasher anyway so it's maybe a 10 minute exercise.

Also, centering a sink in an island is not necessary at all, regardless of if it's a prep sink or a cleanup sink. Here is my 10' island:

114" is actually 118". I have all my prep tools & bowls in the 3 drawer stack (minus cutting boards...kind of wish I had one narrow pullout for those. I tried them in drawers and didn't love it). There really isn't much space once you put a DW and a full size sink. If you keep a full size sink there and a DW, this is how yours could look as well - although you would lose the drawers if you put a microwave in the island. See? 10' gets eaten up pretty quickly.

Also - I do a ton of prep as well, making all of my meals from scratch and mise en place, so I get ease of access. However, with the fridge right there, you won't feel like it's such a trek to get your produce, and it honestly might be easier having it all in one spot.

I'm so glad that my sketches could help you! I had a big deadline yesterday so it was a good brain break for me :)

Here is a link to a thread about kitchen sinks facing a wall. There are some good info and pictures in it https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5956863/show-me-your-sink-facing-a-wall#n=11. 

With regards to swapping the office and pantry, your offices now have such nice windows. I'm not sure I'd trade that off for a more convenient pantry location - you'll spend many more hours working in your office than bringing in groceries.

@tracie_erin I actually looked at the windows in the pantry & Roman's office when I made the suggestion to switch, and they're basically the same size window, so the window situation wouldn't change for Roman. If it were Michelle's office...then yes, it would not be a good switch. But if the exterior is set Roman's office would get a tad smaller, which might be a no-go. In our design, we basically designed cubicles for our offices so I had no issue with a small space but everyone's different :)

thekeller4, thank you for posting the expanded view of the plan. I was thinking the opposite--dining at top, maybe because the fridge and freezer were already drawn near there. I agree with those who advised putting the fridge closer to the DR, and although I don't have time right now to work with the plan, I think it would be more convenient to have the storage pantry in that area, too, especially if groceries are usually brought in through the mudroom entry.

ETA, here's a quick idea to switch the pantry with one of the offices. You could actually have a slider over the pantry counter on the hallway wall, to deposit grocery bags, rather than take them through the kitchen. I didn't do much to the kitchen except change both sides of the bottom wall:

@tracie_erin, @mama goose_gw zn6OH, @anj_p, thank you once again! I never considered the island space a microwave would take up, so I will have to think more about that one and look back at @tracie_erin's suggestions. I'm wondering if it could also go under the steam oven? Or, under the coffee bar counter? Though, it would be nice to have some coffee bar cabinet organization/storage and I'd also hate to take that up with a microwave.

Would you all recommend we hire a Kitchen Designer to walk us through how to best organize our cabinetry (types of drawers, pull outs, etc.), or do builders/architects usually help with that? We are new to this!

Also, if we do the sink and dishwasher separate from the island, should we forego the dishwasher in the butler pantry?

Do you all agree it's best to move the sink and dishwasher? It's seeming like a good idea. It seems easy enough to bring dishes over there. I could still wash pans in the main kitchen sink.

I so want to get this all right, as I love spending time in the kitchen and would really love everything to be very functional.

@anj_p, I agree with your assessment about what is our purpose for the butler pantry. I have brought this up with Roman in the past, as I've actually considered eliminating it. I guess our hope is to use it to keep some of the clutter out of the main kitchen (i.e., leaving out items like stand mixers, Vitamix, and toaster), have a dedicated space for the smoothie prep, and a nice place to just pile dirty dishes when hosting. My husband likes the "cool factor" of it. Honestly, I have mixed feelings because you are right, we don't have a strong purpose for it. Though I will add, the other hope for back there was to have a second standard fridge/freezer for overflow, Costco items, etc. Then we switched to fridge/freezer drawers so that counter space would not be lost. Any thoughts on just doing a standard fridge/freezer back there?

@tracie_erin, thank you for the link to sinks facing walls. I will definitely check that out.

@mama goose_gw zn6OH just demonstrated visually exactly what I was thinking about the office pantry switch! Thanks mama! That looks great. You can even play with the wrap around, and shift doors a bit to reconfigure the space.

I think you would do well to hire a kitchen designer. Right now your kitchen is all over the place - it's getting better from the revisions provided on this forum, but from your follow up questions, it still seems like you're trying to plan for every contingency...and by doing so, creating a confusing space to cook. Multiple dishwashers in different areas, lots of sinks, lots of refrigeration, lots of ovens...a CKD will help you take your many and varied ideas and give you an elegant, functional kitchen. More isn't always better...sometimes it's just more, and sometimes it's too much. Architects are sometimes fine at kitchen design, and sometimes not so fine. In your case, it's become very complex, so I think it's a bit beyond your architect at this point. Don't tell him/her I said that.

Moving the sink & DW is a 6 of 1, half dozen of another proposition IMO. It really depends on what else you do. Kitchen design isn't done in a vacuum. :)

Regarding the smoothie room - the space you could gain by eliminating that, in both office and pantry (especially the pantry in the new spot) might make that space moot. The PANTRY is where you would store the extra appliances - and it works very well for that purpose. You could make the scullery a hallway to the offices, and close off the current doorway space...I don't know, just spitballing.

Regarding another fridge/freezer back there...how many people are you feeding on a regular basis? Do you do a lot of bulk buying? I like bulk buying meat, so I have an extra freezer - but I put mine in the garage since I don't need to access it daily. I cook for 3 and buy groceries weekly. Our regular fridge is more than enough space for that. But I also don't stockpile - by the weekend my fridge is pretty empty. My point is that the question of an extra fridge/freezer can really only be answered by you and your habits. It would be mostly empty in my house and the additional space it takes up would not be worth it, but maybe you feel differently.

Anyway, good luck with this! Would love to see the final result.

@mama goose_gw zn6OH, @anj_p, and @tracie_erin, hello! I wanted to reach out to you again as we have hired a KD and have made some progress with our kitchen space. It's not perfect and we are just in the initial stages, but I would love to continue my thoughts with you and get your input.

Our Kitchen Designer took the original plans and made two different variations. I would love your thoughts on each variation noting what you would keep in place and what you would do differently. Here are some thoughts/questions I have:

1. I would still like to put the coffee bar and undercounter bev fridge across from the round table. In the current sketch, the counter depth does not allow for this. Therefore, I'm considering the possibility of inching into Roman's office a bit, to increase the depth of this space. We need a 5' coffee bar in this space, so if there is room remaining, I'd love to put a tall cabinet next to the coffee bar.

2. We need easy access to a fridge/freezer in the "back kitchen", so I'd like to either pull the standard size fridge/freezer from the pantry and move it to the shared back kitchen wall, or move the main kitchen column freezer to the back kitchen (since not used as much anyway), and incorporate fridge drawers there (remember this back kitchen space is where my husband makes smoothies, and will also be doing grill prep work. Which would you do?

3. What are your thoughts on eliminating the dishwasher in the island and just having a large sink and dishwasher in the back kitchen? Our family will primarily eat meals at the round table. Will it be cumbersome and awkward to bring our dishes to the back kitchen? I like the idea of the dishes being out of the way and there being more prep space at the island, but trying to determine if bringing dishes back there will get old after awhile. One other question...I've seen large sinks with dish dry racks right in the sink. Is this a pretty common feature? If so, that would be one way to keep dishes off of the island countertop.

4. I don't like the ovens being out of the main kitchen. I have a few thoughts on this. One would be to revisit @mama goose_gw zn6OH idea and have the fridge/oven wall centered with the main kitchen walkway, thus leaving two entrances to the adjoining dining room (see her alteration in the post above). If we do this, I'm thinking the fridge column could go in the center and the steam oven could go on one side of the fridge column, with the speed/standard oven stack on the other side of the fridge column. A television above the steam oven might also be nice.

Or, if we kept the two side walls as is noted in the sketches below, I would want to eliminate the space where the steam oven is and close off the pantry with a double glass door. I would then bring the steam oven to where the current "tall cabinet" is and either put the speed/standard oven stack right next to it, or put the speed/standard stack next to where I would like the coffee bar to be (by Roman's office). In this way all ovens are in close proximity to the main/front kitchen.

I could then also keep the column fridge where it is and instead of the open counter there, would put a tall cabinet next to the fridge.

*Which option do you all like better: making one centered wall as in @mama goose_gw zn6OH suggestion, or keeping the two walls as seen in the sketches below?

@mama goose_gw zn6OH, would you be willing to sketch your centered wall again within the PDF below (the one that has two counters in the "back kitchen")? I'd be so grateful as it really helps to see it!

5. You will see that one sketch below has counter space in the pantry while the other has more counter space in the back kitchen. We have more need for the counter space or storage in the back kitchen, so that is likely the route we will go with.

6. Which sink placement do you like better? One sketch shows it to the far left on the island and the other sketch shows it centered.

7. Do you like the current idea of having the pantry open, without a door, or would you shift one appliance so that you can close off the pantry with a door?

I know I've included a lot to take in! If any of you are willing and able to continue to help me digest all of this and get it "just right", I'd be so grateful!

I truly appreciate any input you may have!

I altered the last plan I posted, to put the coffee bar back to the wall across from the breakfast area, and rearranged the back kitchen and Michelle's office, so the pantry can have a small window--although food storage pantries are fine without windows. If the window isn't needed, the wall of Michelle's office can be pushed back into the pantry, even with the perpendicular back wall (red line). The beverage cooler on the corner is convenient to the table, living area, and the offices.

I also moved the kitchen fridge and put an oven stack on that wall, with landing space between them. Since you seem to want seats on the short sides of the island, I moved one to each side, but that still limits the number of seats (24" per seat, with 15" knee space).

If you'll be using the breakfast area for most meals, I'd suggest keeping the DW on the island, with dishes stored across the aisle, and using that area as clean-up for everyday meals. When you use the formal DR and want to keep the mess out of sight, use the sink and DW in the back kitchen, then carry clean dishes around the corner to the dish storage area beside the cooktop.

I don't like the sink location in the KD's first plan, or the pantry fridge location in the second plan. I'll work on your request for the KD's second plan, then add it in an edit.

ETA, this makes the wall longer than I drew it above, but it includes both ovens, and landing space for the fridge and one oven:

ETA, again, to rearrrange the pantry size and entrance, to add an extra oven to the dividing wall:

Thank goodness. I've been harping on moving the offices since last thread. It would be better to also show more info than just the kitchen, include the Mudroom and Dining as it is unwise to put blinders on even when laying out kitchen appliances.

The whole floor plan was posted up-thread, and mudroom and most of DR are included in the first plan I posted above. I'm assuming mudroom and DR aren't changing?

@mama goose_gw zn6OH, thank you so much for the time you took to draw up these alterations. I agree, I don't love the sink at the end of the island.

The purpose of the standard sized fridge/freezer is for the smoothie drink prep and also for fridge/freezer overflow (in place of what we used to have in our garage). Therefore, it is really best placed in the "butler/back kitchen".

However, some of my alterations don't allow room for the main kitchen column freezer, so if that ends up in the butler area, then we need to keep the overlow fridge/freezer in the pantry and add fridge drawers to the butler area. As I type this, this already feels like way more fridge/freezer than needed, but where to put that column freezer, is what's making this more complicated....

At any rate, I took some of your ideas @mama goose_gw zn6OH and played around a bit. I wish I were more tech saavy, but mine are just drawn in and a little trickier to read, but hopefully you get the idea.

Two remaining questions for anyone who would like to give input:

1. Do I really need a "landing" counter in between or adjacent to the speed/standard oven stack and/or the steam oven? I have the island and the range wall nearby. It seems that may work well for landing too?

2. Which entrance plan (in thinking about appliance placement as well) works better? I show two options with the double dining entrance and one with the single entrance.

3. I guess one final question: Which of the below do you prefer?

@3onthetree, I agree, I wish I had the expanded plans. My most recent ones were sent to me cropped by the KD.

I love how much thought you’re putting into your design. My small 2 cents based on my experience: undercounter beverage fridges and ice makers are a pain. They’re super expensive for their size and tend to require frequent repair. I keep saying, next time I build, no undercounter units. I’ll put a narrow but full height fridge with ice maker in my beverage area.