That's one restaurant that we would skip.

I know of only one place that started adding a 18% tip to the bill during the pandemic. Food is good, service is good, and I tip more than that anyway.

If the restaurant has had outdoor dining for years, then I don't understand the upcharge.

I wouldn't mind if the service charge were included more often. That's how it is done in Europe iirc, and it makes sense to me. That, or build their wage into the price.

I'm not aware of any restaurant (near me) charging extra to eat outside. I wouldn't pay it.

$5 per PERSON?? I could tolerate per table, but per person?

Around here none of that applies, but when I was in NYC a few months ago, every restaurant I ate in had menus available pretty much exclusively through QR codes. I also ate in a couple of places where service was included and tipping wasn't even allowed. I wish more restaurants paid their staff decent enough wages to do that.

My aunt and I went to a restaurant that uses QR codes. The good news was, she learned a new feature on her new iPhone. The bad news was, menus just aren’t as easy to read on a phone, and you can’t easily scan your eyes among your items under consideration. I imagine they save money for the restaurant, they don’t have to print off the daily specials and it is easily updated.

Interesting - looks like they're trying to make up for increasing wages to keep their good staff. An odd choice, but perhaps it's because none of the waitstaff want to serve the outdoor tables? I'd actually ask them why, because I'm curious about whether it's because those tables are less attractive to staff, or more attractive to patrons.

I would think they're more attractive to patrons (we still don't eat inside). When you make a reservation around here either through OpenTable or Resy, and there's a choice of indoor or outdoor seating, the latter always books up first.

Bpath, I'm always try to peruse menus online before heading out.

I have not heard of this and would probably not go to a restaurant that does so.

I think some restaurants add the 20 percent mandated tip large parties.

Definitely lots of outdoor seating here in Southern CA with no extra charge that we've encountered.

This made me think of the bar in Wales that was overrun by instagrammers. If fees are ever done for that reason I'd gladly pay.

UK: Hotel Charges $270 Membership Fee to Resist Instagrammer Invasion (insider.com)

Does that restaunt have proportionately fewer outdoor tables than indoor? could be a way to subsidize turning fewer tables b/c many diners will only sit outside and indoor tables are vacant

That's sure a mixed message. Are they saying "we have outdoor seating to accommodate the wishes of our customers" or "here's outdoor seating but to discourage you from using it, we charge a penalty "? If it's the first, remove the added charge. If the second, remove the tables and chairs and take whatever business wants to go inside.

I'd cross this place off my list (if it were on) for the bad attitude displayed.

Thx for the responses.

lisaam, about 1/3 of their seating is outdoors and it always has been. Also, there has been no augmentation to outdoor seating, no plastic heated tents or other added features, just the $5/person increase. Their indoor business always is busy so it's not a matter of lacking indoor customers.

I forgot to mention another annoying policy, even though we always pay in cash they wanted us to give them a credit card (number & code) for their records. They did not explain why very well (it was confusing) but maybe some people walk off without paying? This was rather strange and made VgQn especially uncomfortable, so I checked our CC balance the next day to make sure we weren't paying twice, we weren't but it's still weird. Hopefully they will get enough complaints and lower turnout to rethink these recent moves. I'd post their website but that may be against the rules here.

What jerks.

"Just so everyone is aware…that 20% tip is usually split between waiter, bus people, servers (if different ) and hostess. With the waiter getting the highest percentage of the split."

I appreciate you are aware of this at one establishment but in no way can one assume that is a policy everywhere, anywhere. And even so 'split' still gives them $$$$ more money in their pocket each night than the COOK who actually made sure the meal was edible. Some eateries here had to add heaters and other's even bubbles so the cost is MAYBE understandable but in the end who care what they attempt to charge--just say no and eat inside!! Their problem solved. LOL

So they are charging $5 extra to sit outside and also want your credit card info even if you are paying cash? I wouldn't be back. I would probably also call the owner/manager and explain why.

We're traveling and haven't seen anything like that. I wonder if the upcharge is to discourage outdoor seating? With most places being short staffed, maybe they're trying to keep diners grouped together closer to the kitchen?

That would be a restaurant I would cross off my list.

don't go there

Maybe they are actively discouraging all but their most loyal customers. There is an advantage to being small and staying small, not outgrowing your market niche. Vgkg, if you get a chance to ask them, let us know what they say.

"There is an advantage to being small and staying small,"

Unless this is a place that has so much business it can't deal with it, I can't imagine a restaurant wanting to discourage customers from coming by having such awkward and unwelcoming practices. Businesses that don't try their best to accommodate customer wishes and have manageable growth tend to go in the other direction and not be around for long.

"I can't imagine a restaurant wanting to discourage customers from coming by having such awkward and unwelcoming practices."

I can......Since a lot of restaurant dining is more about image than food, it could give them a more exclusive image. I don't know whether that's the case in this case or not, but I certainly can see it happening. Cultivating a particular clientele that is smaller, but benefits your business in other ways (more spent per customer, more word of mouth recommendations, better press, etc). They end up making more without doing more.

"even though we always pay in cash they wanted us to give them a credit card (number & code) for their records."

Was this to hold a reservation, or once you were already there? If you were already there, I wonder if they would have thrown you out if you refused?

"I can..."

Have you owned or been responsible to run a business? Did you use this approach?

That’s ridiculous, I don’t care how good their food might (or might not) be, I don’t see them lasting long, I know for sure that I wouldn’t waste my money there.

I wouldn't have given them my credit card. If I'm paying cash, there's no reason to give them a card. I would have just said no, I'm not giving it to you. What would they have done?

"Maybe they are actively discouraging all but their most loyal customers. There is an advantage to being small and staying small, not outgrowing your market niche. Vgkg, if you get a chance to ask them, let us know what they say."

Nickel_kg, they have 4 locations around town with a bar section and they like the crowds, each location has the $5/person charge for outdoor seating. We're not going back until they fix their policy so I really don't care to inquire. This is probably the only outfit in town where doggie bags are not required, high prices with small servings. They used to be reasonably priced for good food but our favorite dishes have gone up in price and have been downsized in quantity since covid began. They don't strike me as a place which is struggling to survive, they are very popular. This may be in the process of changing after reading their most recent reviews.

I would think it's a way to encourage people to use the (likely) less popular indoor seating. If they can still fill the outdoor seating with the surcharge, then maybe they will get more people choosing to use the indoor seats. But another downside to their policy is that if people pay a surcharge for the outdoor seating, they are likely to feel more entitled to linger, which will affect their turnover of tables.

I wonder if they, like so many places, are having trouble retaining staff and are trying to figure out how to increase their margins in order to pay more wages. I always tip, so don't mind the tip surcharge and like that it prevents wait staff from being stiffed by customers. Most of the places where I've been auto-tip charged have high standards for service; if they didn't and I had very poor service, I'd complain to the management about the tip that wasn't earned.

vgkg, with four locations that does sound more like "too big for their britches" than small but right-sized for a small niche, or staying small and exclusive as Toronto Vet speculated. As far as I know, its common practice to give over a credit card to 'open a tab' at a bar, but I'd never experienced that when dining. So that's two odd practices -- how strange.

Elmer if I understand your responses correctly, you agree a business might choose to stay small, but disagree that some businesses are patronized more for their style than their substance. For me, I don't care if a restaurant is trying to grow or not, and I don't care if it's the latest craze, but I do care if the food is good!

I would not pay the $5 per person. No way would they get my cc number if I was paying cash. I would have left and wouldn't go back.

If you do find out anything more abt this restaurant's new practice, why they are doing it, are they still doing it, please let us know.

No idea. Haven't dined inside a restaurant for 19 months. I definitely would not pay extra to dine outdoors. As far as I'm concerned, indoor dining should be for vaccinated only.

"Elmer if I understand your responses correctly, you agree a business might choose to stay small"

Not exactly. I can understand if a place constrained by its physical facility tries to keep a lid on traffic but I tried to express the thought that most businesses try to grow and earn more. It's been described as having four locations, an underutilized outdoor area, declining portions and a busy pace so that's all consistent with trying to maximize income and not like haute cuisine being served to a select few in a closet.

I would not pay the extra surcharge for eating outside. That is taking things a bit too far imo.

It is quite common here for many restaurants to add 18% gratuity for parties of 6 or 8 or more. Usually it’s 8 but there have been a few who say 6 or more. We generally tip more than 18% anyway if the service is great.

So does this $5 seat get you stunning views out on the deck or does it get you a seat on the sidewalk close to oncoming traffic, car exhaust, peaceful protestors and the jewelry heist gang?

No surcharges here for outdoor seating as far as I know. I don't think it would go over very well here.

The outdoor seating is pretty much done for the season here. It is getting too chilly. We always enjoyed eating outside in nice weather, but no way would we pay extra for it. Last year one of our favorite restaurants temporarily closed in its outside structure, added heaters and made an Halloween then a Christmas themed restaurant. Since it isn't a large area they had an restriction on how long you could dine. It was 1 hour. This year all covid restrictions are gone for restaurants , but it was such an hit they are doing it again this year.

We ate outside Friday night when it was in the high 70's but that's probably the last time. This restaurant is crazy to think people will pay that. All our local restaurants don't have a fee for outdoor dining. .

Never seen this kind of charging here but QR code menus are common at everyday eateries. Better establishments still have menus. A service charge sometimes appears on the bill at upscale places but is usually optional. You can choose not to pay. Other tipping is entirely the patron’s choice and is by no means expected. There are only waiting staff, no bus people.

There is little general tipping culture here. For example, delivery drivers do not expect tips and grocery stores ban tipping of their staff. Tipping was one of the most difficult things for us to understand on visits to the US. We never knew who to tip or how much was expected. It was quite stressful and potentially embarrassing.

Floral_uk wrote"Tipping was one of the most difficult things for us to understand on visits to the US. We never knew who to tip or how much was expected. It was quite stressful and potentially embarrassing." Welcome to the USA; I think the same is true for many of us who live here!

"So does this $5 seat get you stunning views out on the deck or does it get you a seat on the sidewalk close to oncoming traffic, car exhaust, peaceful protestors and the jewelry heist gang?"

ci_lantro, 2 of their places are located on rivers, 1 place on a lake, and 1 in a Mall, so the last one has the least ambiance. The 3 with water views have always been with "free" outdoor tables so the recent $5/person charge of all 4 locations appears to be just an extra cost for covid fear.

Another negative note on their billing practice which had been reported in their reviews is that the automatic added 20% tip line on the bill is labeled as a "service charge" and another open blank line lists "tip" for the customer to fill out. Some people add another 20% not realizing that it was already added as "service charge".

At any rate we'll see what happens and/or if things change, it is getting to be a bit too chilly and dark for outdoor dinner seating now and as the complaints increase they may have to adjust. Until then we'll eat out elsewhere or not eat out at all until we get our booster shots and this latest surge fades away, hopefully.

We can eat outside most of the year here with the awnings, tents, fire pits and outside heaters. I've never been charged extra for it. Some places went to a reservation system during Covid and you only get the table for 1.5-2 hours a couple of our favorite non-chain upscale, but not incredibly fancy places. Prices on food are rapidly increasing right now. I don't think I'd pay an extra $5 per person for seating.

I normally tip at the 20% mark for good service. When restaurants start adding an automatic 18% tip to everyone's bill, they only get an 18% percent tip. I'm not doing the math to figure out what an extra 2% is. An automatic tip makes me uncomfortable. I fee like the restaurant is doing something wrong in the handling of its customers although I know that isn't always the case. We live in a very diverse area where apparently many people come from areas where tipping is not the norm. Large groups of non-tipping customers can really overwhelm the system

In Florida, many restaurants have outdoor seating. Most people choose to eat indoors because of the heat and humidity. The outdoor tables are usually used by people meeting for drinks and snacks.

Since Covid, most people want to eat outdoors. You quickly learn which restaurants have roofs and fans over the eating area outdoors. Some actually have some sort of fans which blow a mist of water to cool down the area. All have a roof over them to block the sun.

I went out to eat with my son the other day to a place close to where I live. My husband and I used to go there frequently because he liked certain dishes they make. They make a type of bread which is unusual but very good and always bring it out to the table when you sit down. When we were there the other day, my son asked about having some bread. The waitress apologized and said they are now charging $3.00 for a basket of bread. She kept apologizing and saying they find it necessary because of cost. She was so apologetic, it felt uncomfortable. I said, we'll pay the $3.00.

Previously, I met a friend at Cheescake Factory for lunch. They are a large restaurant with an large outdoor patio. Again, well suited to deal with the heat here. As we walked inside to ask for a table for two outside, the desk person said the wait would be an hour. I said you have so many empty table out there (we walked past it to look before entering).

She responded, "yes there are tables, but we do not have the waitstaff."

Jane

There are no people for a lot of jobs. My 19 year old got a job at a local grocery store for $10/hr last month. He was happy with that, but then found out another grocery store is hiring for $15/hr and CVS for $13/hr. Not sure how many hours those people are getting, but my son is now at about 40 hours per week which is more than he wants. He's getting overtime pay some nights because he is working more than an eight hour shift. He plans to stay there for another month or two and then switch jobs. I've suggested picking out what job he wants and then going for it since there is such a shortage of workers.

Another who would not be eating at a restaurant that charged extra for outdoor seeating or added a 20% gratuity, unless a large party. That said I generally tip at minimum 20%, if the service is not up to par I will still tip on the higher end if I can see that the servers are hard at work and have a good attitude. With all the staffing issues I really appreciate the servers that go the extra mile trying to cover a high number if tables. Also appreciate restaurant managers that turn away business when they know they do not have the staff to provide decent service.

My first thought was 'surge pricing', as others have suggested. If you want fewer people to use something, price it higher and stem the crush. I'm fairly sure this is about their bottom line.

And really gotta love the entitled attitudes of some folks! People risking their health and working their butts off in restaurants right now have my sympathy.

I’ve never ununderstood the American practice of tipping wait staff to make up for their appallingly low hourly wages. You don’t tip staff in retail outlets, for instance, as they are paid at least minimum wage. Why aren’t restaurant owners required to pay their staff as other businesses do? Then if the service is good, the customer may tip as they wish rather than be expected to add 20-25% to their bill. Of course the restaurant would increase its prices to reflect the higher wages, but customers already pay more than the menu price once you include a huge tip.

Food service is one of the few industries where the customer is expected to pay the workers rather than the employer.

It's a good question colleenoz that I don't know the answer to but I do have thoughts about.

My experience is that in much of Europe, table service is considered an honorable occupation that people choose to pursue. It's not just a job. It's work people learn about and train to do for which there are standards and expectations. It's work most all do while conducting themselves professionally and being mindful of managing and enhancing each customer's experience. The service charge is typically either included in the menu charge or is added automatically. Expectations among customers are high and the work is carried out respectfully,

In the US, it's mostly not like that at all. Table wait staff jobs are not generally a part of a chosen or respected profession. It's a way to make money, like washing dishes. Maybe a part time job. Work usually done by people with lower levels of education, little or no training, and without career aspirations to continue doing unless life circumstances prevent doing or training for something better. It's low paying work with few or no prereqs. One bit of leverage a customer has to try to get better service is the option to set the tip amount paid. It's usually discretionary. Higher performance equals higher earnings and the opposite is expected to be true. In better up market restaurants, that most people may visit infrequently if at all, service is usually better managed and better accomplished. Otherwise, service is often amateurish and miserable. As you may have seen mentioned in other threads, some people leave large tips solely because they feel sorry for the circumstances of the people on the receiving end,. That does little to encourage better performance and probably does the opposite.

Maybe it's right or wrong, that's my explanation.

I also think that restaurant workers should be paid a living wage instead of being forced to rely on the kindness of strangers. I think that the USA is very backward in this regard.

As for the restaurant in question - I would only order take-out or delivery - and then only if the food is something that I would not want to make at home. If the food is not spectacular, I would not go there at all.

Most restaurants here and in Palm Springs have outdoor dining, and this reduces the cost of A/C in PS. In the summer, I prefer to dine indoors in Palm Springs, although there are misters that make it somewhat more comfortable outdoors. I think that it is more expensive for restaurants to maintain indoor dining, and I've especially noticed some outdoor restaurants in Austin that had pretty primitive outdoor dining areas.

My daughter just got a second part time job because the place she works now has hired too many people, and cut her hours the past few weeks. She worked 7 hours last night and because it was trivia night made about $7 an hour because people playing trivia do not tip well and sit there for hours. It's sad that they do not pay their workers well and have to rely on customers to pay their wages. Customers who just aren't going to do it.