If you want the KD contacts, message me. But the real root problems with this lie with the ARCHITECT. The bad kitchen is just a symptom of the bad architecture. A KD can’t fix bad architecture.

Skip trying to make this the kitchen that ate the house would definitely be a better direction to go down. It is disproportionate. With the stairs located there, the kitchen will always be a major traffic corridor. Automatic fail.

This isn't the house that you spend that kind of big kitchen budget on, unless you also move those stairs. Either do much less, much cheaper, and sell shortly, or do much more, much better, and stay there longer term. This expensive oversized superhighway awkwardness is for the birds.

well said verbo.

@User We don't plan to flip the house, we plan to stay here so I want it to be wonderful. :/ These are really well built all brick houses in a very coveted neighborhood, but it was built in 1967 and a really common layout. It's 4060 square feet so we have plenty of space. Moving the stairs is difficult because of the main steel girder/HVAC trunk down the center of the floor, and where the new stairs would land in the basement, but I would be interested to know where you would move them. There is another fireplace downstairs with a shared chimney, with a door to the outside same as upstairs, there is a bedroom and bathroom directly below the kitchen/dining, and then a large living room below the living room/den, with more rooms directly under the upstairs bedroom.

I'd be curious to hear what your "do much more" would consist of.

@RL Relocation LLC Yes this plans to be our house for a long time. As for the tiny living/large dining, it's just one huge open space that will need to be styled - I just drew furniture to get a feel for scale in the model lol.

In the design that you proposed, is that the fridge against the back of the stairs? I tried putting it there, but the freezer door is going to hit the counter and block the dishwasher.

I’d start by looking at the least change possible, and then progressing up. Think about reversing them, so that they come off of the center of the room, with a glass surround, so that they are no longer a visual or physical barrier. They still use a similar amount of bulk, but now the kitchen space has an escape hatch and throughway path to the living area that doesn’t involve going through all of the work zones.

The kitchen would still be too large proportionately if you add the dining area to it, but that’s a start to a brainstorm. Other ideas would need the floor plan for the basement and a structural engineer’s input.

@User great ideas, yes. We considered reversing the stairs - could you elaborate on what you mean by an escape hatch? do you mean the path behind the stairs between the back wall and from kitchen to den? That's another thing we considered was opening that up somehow, even as the stairs are now, although it would mean pulling the sink counter back quite a bit (I really want to install both dishwashers). Maybe I misunderstood what you meant. Happy to draft up the basement plan if helpful. Also, I sent you a message as suggested.

Reversing the stairs...would there be at least 4' in front of the bottom of the stairs in the basement if you reversed them? I'm thinking about what you would need to get a new hot water tank, furnace, furniture, etc., down there. Would there be enough room?

We have 4' in front of the stairs in our basement and I wouldn't want it any tighter. Even at 4', we had some problems getting a long sofa down there without damaging walls.

You may have to create a landing partway down and turn 90 degrees to have enough room. But, make sure the landing is large enough to turn a large item to get around the corner.

Are you planning on taking all the walls down that are marked in red?

You might want a wall to create a defined Foyer, but I can see making it a bit wider and adding a closet (if you need one).

From what I can see, you're:

(1) Taking down all the walls in red in your floorplans

(2) Repurposing the Dining Room to be part of the Kitchen

(3) Moving the Dining Room into the current Living Room

(4) Merging the remaining Living Room into the Den for one larger Living/Family Room

Are you also carving out space from the current Living Room for a Foyer (as I suggested above)?

Have I summarized the changes you're planning? (Leaving aside the stairs right now)

Do you really need to have your Cleanup Zone in a separate room? I like Verbo's idea of creating a hallway b/w the Laundry/Mudroom and Den/Family Room to cut down on traffic in the Kitchen. It may not be perfect and some people would probably still try to cut through the Kitchen, but that can be handled with some "family discussion". :-)

Could you please provide the missing measurements - the red lines/labels - as well as the thicknesses of the walls the green arrows are pointing to.

Based on what you posted, this is what I came up with. I used the dimensions in the full-floor plan and guessed at window & doorway locations.

I show the current walls that I think you intend to remove as dashed walls with no fill.

Top half (I couldn't fit it all in one image, so I had to split. I included the stairs in both so there is a reference point b/w the two images.)

Bottom half:

@Buehl Sorry for the delay, when I went to double check the measurements you asked for, I realized that my laser measure was not calibrated when I drew the original floor plan so I had to use a tape measure to update and redraft the entire plan. Here are the exact dimensions of the entire house. The walls that you asked about area all 4". Also, there is a coat closet on the right inside the front door. I also wanted to show you the inspiration photo that I keep coming back to. I love how the rooms feel open yet connected. I attempted a layout like their peninsula, connected to the back of my stairs, but fitting the fridge in was hard. I can show you that model if you're curious.

@Buehl just in case you want to see - here was my original first stab at essentially keeping the kitchen where it is. But this was before I purchased the 36" wolf induction, and I'd really like a all fridge/freezer. This is our house for a very long time and I cook a lot, so I want it to be great.

@User @Buehl this was my playing with moving the stairs, back in March. I really have modeled this so many different ways my head is spinning. Again this was before I bought the wolf, and I really do want an all fridge/all freezer but maybe I just don't have space.

@Buehl let me know if you need more measurements. I appreciate your help so much

Here's the updated "blank slate" based on your updated measurements.

@Buehl Okay what is the next step?

Sorry - I've been busy with work. I'm looking at it again.

Something I was working on last week. Not an island, but it gives you your 36" cooktop & refrigerator/freezer towers.

I liked your idea of the displays against the stairwell wall, so I put it in the layout below.

Ideally, a sink would be in the corner of the peninsula -- it's a huge improvement over only one sink. Yes, I understand you have a finished basement with a drywalled ceiling (as opposed to a drop/accessible ceiling), but if it were me, it would be well worth the effort to put in the sink and then repair the ceiling in the basement when the project is done.

Do you really need the two DWs? I'm asking b/c they are in the way of prepping b/w the sink and the cooktop. While it's not that big a deal in the layout with the prep sink in the peninsula, it becomes a bigger issue if there's only one sink in the Kitchen.

I will try to work on an island layout, but I don't have a lot of time right now. Perhaps others will chime in since I posted the to-scale layout above for them to use.

10/17/21, edited to add:

• First, there are two KEY components to a successful Prep Zone -- a direct water source and sufficient work space adjacent to the water source (bare minimum of 36" with 42" or more much better). Other components -- next to or directly across from the Cooking Zone, trash & recycling next to the (prep) sink, and located in a space that's not also part of the Cleanup Zone (i.e., no DW in the middle of the Prep Zone). [For more information, see "Work Zones, What Are They?" and "Ice.Water.Stone.Fire, a humorous discussion of Kitchen design".]

To continue...

• The "U" shape nicely directs traffic away from the primary Prep Zone and Cooking Zones. These are the work zones that need the most protection from traffic. This is true for both layouts (with or without the corner prep sink).
• In the prep sink layout, there is a nice separation of work zones so more than one person can work in the Kitchen without getting in each other's way. The Cleanup Zone is along the window wall (in front of an enlarged window) with the two DWs flanking the sink. Dish storage is to the left of the sink so someone setting the table or unloading the DW(s) will not get in the way of someone trying to prep and/or cook. It's also a straight shot b/w the Dining Room and dish storage so there's no weaving around obstacles. Loading the DWs is also easy since only someone cleaning up will be in that space, not someone prepping or cooking.
• Without the prep sink, there is still a relatively nice separation of work zones, except on the right of the cleanup sink b/c the DW is in the way of the Prep Zone. If someone is loading or unloading the DW, the person prepping will need to get out of the way (or vice versa).
• The peninsula seats 5 and is deep enough that your kids can do homework while you're prepping nearby.
• The display for your wood bowls is also on the peninsula facing the Dining Room. There's storage for the Family Room facing the Family Room. The Family Room storage could be either open shelving or a cabinet with doors for hiding clutter.
• It has double ovens with landing space next to them (b/w the ref/frzr and oven cabinet). Tray storage is above for cooling racks, muffin tins, cookie sheets, roasting pans, etc. Long serving platters will also fit there. Here's an example. Note the platters are on the bottom shelf and the trays are on the top shelf. You only need to grasp the bottom of the trays/cooking/racks/etc. to retrieve or put away, so you don't to have to access the very top. Platters, though, need to be grasped fully, so put them on the bottom shelf for ease of access.

• The Snack & Coffee/Tea Center is on the Dining Room side of the ref/frzr towers with the beverage refrigerator and a MW drawer. There is also plenty of overflow storage for food, cookbooks, etc. The two 24" cabs flanking the MW drawer & beverage refrigerator could be made into two 18" pullout pantries, if you prefer. (I strongly caution you against pantry cabinets that (1) are wider than 18" and (2) not pullouts. Things routinely get lost in deep depths & widths b/c you have to root around looking for things and items can hide - especially above chest height. With narrow pullout pantries, you can see all items by looking at first one side, then the other. 12" deep panty cabinets can be very useful as well, but they won't fit in this layout b/c the base cabinetry is 24" deep.)
• Overall, there is plenty of storage in these layouts without blocking light or making the space feel smaller than it is.

Note: If you decide one DW is sufficient for everyday use for your family, then keep the DW on the left side, out of the Prep Zone b/w the sink and range. If you do eliminate the second DW, then there is less of a need for the prep sink in the peninsula...although, that sink does make for a more pleasant place to prep - on the peninsula or b/w the sink and cooktop where you can visit with your family or help your kids with their homework. Prepping in the corner b/w the cleanup sink and cooktop is fine, but you will not be in the optimum location (unless you prefer to prep by yourself, some people do).

.

Family Room area:

Have you thought about adding a Powder Room so guests don't have to use your family's bathrooms? Something like this? It's 4'6" x 4'6". Not huge, but definitely adequate. (Quick & dirty idea)

how much island d you really need?

Hiring one of the kitchen designers that I sent you is still the best approach..

@Buehl thank you for all of the time you put into this! I already own the two dishwasher (one is sitting in the mud room) - that's one thing that my husband and I really want. We fill/run/unload daily and still manage to have dishes that can't fit in and have to wait until after the load is done (yes we are efficiant dishwasher loaders). As for the powder room, yes we have considered that. We have also considered moving the door to the first bedroom down the hall, and adding some type of door in the hall beyond the bathroom/before the bedrooms to designate private from public space. That would be a much less expensive option. The powder room as you drew it would work - but we really don't need the storage closets on either side, so maybe that would allow it to be larger/more rectangle shape.

@RL Relocation LLC I need to be able to seat 4. The way you have it oriented, if it was a bit deeper with no base cabinets we could do two stools on either side maybe. I worry the fridge location is going to be an issue with freezer door hitting the front cabinets. I have considered building the pantry in the laundry room as you also suggested. I wish I could move the washing machines down to that wall so that people aren't walking past the machines but that room is on slab and moving the lines will be so difficult.

I agree but I think you are closer now to the right layout with the U shaped kitchen.

I always prefer an island for traffic reasons, and you have room for one if you tweak. Eliminate everything on the window wall where your prep sink currently is, put prep sink on island OR left side of top wall, and expand the island a little. This would also make your prep/cooking triangle more compact.

I would also consider putting the fridge where the ovens are and the ovens next to it on the end of that run.

@tracie_erin prep sink on left side of top wall - can you help me picture where you're thinking?

@Suz, sure, here is a rough draft that shows the prep sink in 2 possible locations including the left side of the top wall. I've also added some other thoughts that may or may not work for you.

Just an FYI that I added an analysis of the layout last night (10/17). I don't know if you saw it.

@tracie_erin thanks for clarifying, that's what I assumed but wanted to be sure. I don't love the sink on the back wall, and i would definitely want the ovens closer to the stove since I frequently take pans off the stove and put them right in the oven, also I would want a landing counter next to the fridge to set stuff down.

Yes we do plan to enlarge the windows, but we don't plan to add a door there as you'd be walking out into a flower bed. The wall you mentioned removing (assuming we are talking about the same wall), is the wall around the stairs to the basement. We could remove the wall, but we don't plan to as we like being able to close the door at the top when the kids are making noise downstairs.

@Buehl thank you! A few thoughts, I don't love the sink in the corner of the peninsula, in that layout I don't feel like there is very much counter space so I would hate to take it up with a sink. I am not sure about extending the counter all the way to the end of the stairwall, it feels like it's in the den. I definitely need a pantry and I could put it in the laundry room, but we tend to hang a lot of laundry to dry and I'm not really sure how to arrange all that.

@Buehl @RL Relocation LLC @User @tracie_erin thoughts on this layout/island?

edit to mention that I left the bev fridge in both locations so you could see either. I picture having the coffee maker on the counter to the right of the ovens, mugs/wine glasses above, liquor bottle roll out with drawer for cork screw etc to the left of the bev fridge. But does it make more sense to have it far left to keep people out of that area? I would also consider adding a tower on the far left like the oven unit is in, to do a built in microwave with storage above. I don't care for microwave drawers or having to bend down to clean a microwave, and I'm right handed so I really want the ovens to the right (they have swing doors). I slide the wink over to the left to give more space between the dishwasher and the corner. Trash pullout on the island and left of the dishwasher? I am also trying to add back in cased openings to preserve rooms, and have pulled the stair wall down to get a feel for it. Reversing the stairs might be an option depending on how far into the center trunk line we can get so they start far enough back that there's another head room at the bottom. Lastly, The pantry would go in the laundry room.

I like this a lot, hate island sinks but I like this layout.

Contact one of the kitchen designers I sent you is still going to be your best route. Trying to do this DIY isn’t giving you the experienced feedback that you need. The end result isn’t worth the expense of the job of removing all of those walls, no matter how long you plan to stay. You might as well leave the walls up and save 150K. The nature of the home remains exactly the same, with no change to social interaction or traffic paths. Spending the type of money that this will cost, demands a better result. Or to not spend that renovation money, and move to a different house that gives you more on the front end.

@RL Relocation LLC I am not a fan of island sinks either, but wonder if because of the distance from the main sink to the stove, it is necessary.

@User Yes I will contact one of them. Are you suggesting that it will cost $150K to remove those walls? They are not load bearing. I renovated my last house and wasn't a big deal to remove the walls. Perhaps it's regional but in Tennessee. We do not plan to move, we love our house and our neighborhood.

It looks good. Where will you put the table? There should be at least 5' (60") between the island and table to have room for seating at both. [FYI...even if you "plan" to not have seating at both locations, you will, regardless of what you want. So, plan for it.]

Do you have at least 18" on one side of the sink and 42" on the other? What size is the prep sink in the island?

Have you condidered two under counter ovens? or are you ok with the look of the double oven in the middle of the run? and i agree with person above… i hate a sink in the island especially with kids, its so much more functional space without it i also 100% agree with avoiding corner cabinets!!

Can a door not be created at the bottom of the basement stairs?

I would love to avoid the sink on the island if I can, I am just not sure if the sink is too far away from the island and stove to not have one in that area?

A door can’t be at the bottom of the basement stairs because we have mid-mod posts that we want to keep.

I would not use under-counter ovens unless your entire family is very short or you rarely use the ovens. Ovens installed under the counter are much closer to the floor than ovens in ranges. Go somewhere to see them installed that low b/f committing to them (if you think you want them). Take something heavy (~20 pounds) to put in/take out when you go so you have an idea of how it would work.

The prep sink in the island is what makes your latest layout work. Without it, your layout won't work because the main/cleanup sink is too far away.

This is one of those layouts in which the inclusion or exclusion of a prep sink makes or breaks the layout...i.e., it works with the sink, it doesn't work without the sink.

Hopefully you like exercise, because the layout

of that kitchen will have you putting in a lot of miles.

Frankly, it's not well designed.

If that was what I had to work with, I'd reluctantly opt for the peninsula,

only because an island would immensely impede access to the refrigerator.

Zulu, a more constructive comment beyond “frankly it’s not well designed” is welcomed.

@Buehl I am not doing under counter ovens they are not practical I much prefer the double stack with side swing doors :)

Hi Suz, I’m late to the party but thought I’d play around with your fun puzzle. It is so nice to see Buehl’s still creating wonderful layouts and generously providing such great advice. Many others have great ideas as well!

I used Buehl’s empty layout and just moved her appliances and things around. I have zero design experience, but here is my attempt anyways. :*)

The existing sink under the window could stay with the 2 DW’s on the sides. This area i see being the messy prep zone and clean up zone. That way you won’t see it from the open pretty kitchen/dining/living room area. You could keep small appliances you use often out on the counters like a mixer, blender, air fryer, coffee maker, etc… Maybe an under-counter beverage fridge could fit?

Being the entry from the garage, I do see potential for a traffic jam at certain times. Like if the kids come home from school at the exact time someone is emptying the dishwasher. Or someone needs the laundry as you are blending a margarita, but hopefully it would not happen too often.

I also don’t love a sink on the island, so you could have the prep sink in the corner or over a little more on the stove wall.

Depending on if you get the humongous fridge/freezer or not, you could get more counter space on either side for unloading groceries. I would probaly just use the island and pivot myself.

I am not sure where you would like to display your large bowls, but I think you have a few options. Maybe have a custom cabinet made. Maybe it could match wood or color of the island cabinets, then have the perimeter a different color?

I like the idea of keeping an entry wall too. Or, maybe just a half wall? Ok, I think I better quit decorating your house now or I’ll want to move in. You must be super excited!

In Rebunky's, you might even be able to move the wall to the left 6 to 9" or so to give you a 48" to 51" aisle b/w the sink and counters across from it. That would help with traffic and reduce jams when someone is working at the sink and/or the DWs while people are coming & going b/w the Garage/Laundry Room and the rest of the house.

oh a butler pantry concept... interesting..

Both are nice. I have a peninsula in a smallish space and I’m thankful every day. Unless it throws off otherwise perfect symmetry, a peninsula with a wide foot traffic area creates such nice flow and clean continuous space.

@RL Relocation LLC that's what the original design was - a butler's pantry/wash zone with the fridge turned.

Buehl, I agree. I was thinking that wall could adjust too. Also maybe the cabinets and countertop on that wall could be made more shallow. I think the least amount of walkway I would want is 48”. But 51” or 52” would be ideal. The isle in my kitchen (fridge/sink/dw run to the island with dish storage) is 52” and it is perfect for us. I can even have my dw open and the dish drawer across from it fully open and still have a little space to pass through if needed. Or if I’m prepping at the island, hubby can get into the fridge, wash hands, or get into the dw behind me no problem.

RL Relocation LLC, yes sort of like a butler’s pantry, but I couldn’t remember what to call it haha! I just looked it up though and seems instead of a butler pantry, it might be called a scullery. Apparantly you don’t need to descend from English royalty, or have butlers and maids, to have a scullery these days. I sure wish I had a scullery, and a maid maybe once a week would be nice!

Here’s an article I found. https://www.houzz.co.nz/magazine/10-ways-to-make-a-scullery-work-for-you-stsetivw-vs~63320023

A double door cabinet like this or with just open shelves into the sculery would be cool.

I also like the idea of a place for recycling.

IDK, just a few ideas for you Suz. Definitely want to get your kitchen designers’ feedback. Best wishes!

not really you had this long corridor now it seems more intentional with the wall.

When you said, ”that's what the original design was - a butler's pantry/wash zone with the fridge turned.”, are you talking about this design?

I love how the cleanup sink and flanking dw’s are in front of that awesome big window. Love that!

I think the issue though is the flow of Ice Water Stone Fire. The water (prep sink) is pretty far from the ice. The corner shelf cabinet down to the counter blocks the flow of water to fire. The isle width from fidge to island is going to be very tight even without the seating on that side.

With that big window, I am picturing something like this for the sink side. Well, maybe not so many windows! Plus the walkway in this picture seems way too tight.

I have another thought for a design I am toying with, but I think you are probably having brain overload. I can totally understand. Sometimes taking a break from thinking about it is a good thing.

Here was the other thought I had. It is very similar to yours, but the short wall and peninsula to separate the rooms a little more and hide the back door. I like the counter across from the fridge to unload groceries into fridge/freezer. I like how yours hid the fridge on that wall too, so just a little tweek.