If you wanted to obtain quotes for an HVAC system, you should have hired a third party to design the system so you could provide a uniform set of specifications to all of the bidders. I suspect you haven't done that--which is why you've been quoted 2.5 ton A/C units by two bidders and 2.0 ton A/C units by the two others. And that's the same reason you've been quoted 60,000 BTU furnaces by two of the bidders and 40,000 BTU units by two of the bidders. You've got an apples-and-oranges comparison because you didn't specify what you wanted.

Consider that two of the bidders are quoting furnaces that are 50% greater capacity than the others and you should be concerned. Time to start over and do it right.

Re: Charles Ross Homes

Good advice that very few people follow. I would add to it that a detailed, proper evaluation of your duct system should also be performed. You should have a serious discussion if you should even have gas at all at this point, based on rising carbon fuel pricing and the phase out of gas & gas equipment that’s coming faster than you might otherwise think, as well as gas equipment efficiency & cost compared to all electric.

IMPO

SR

mqcola, All these quotes are 96% gas (condensing furnace) / 13 SEER entry level AC units. The differences are mostly sizing from what you post asside from the sticker or decal on the box.

When picking things this way there is "no way" to determine what is better.

You could "hire" a 3rd party design to give you parameters for quotes, but that is going to "complicate things"

If a 3rd party designer says: You need this, this and this... you get bids on that--- the HVAC company installs it based on those requirements, if it doesn't work you are going to be in a rat's nest predicament.

The 3rd party designer will say the installer didn't do something right, the installer will say the designer's design is flawed they just followed it. Or blame the manufacturer, or something?

Because it's 3rd party there is always someone who loses out. If a problem develops guess who loses?

Is the 3rd party designer going to accept blame for the installation? In otherwords in the eyes of the 3rd party designer the installer isn't capable of doing something without being told / shown how to do it.

The design always looks perfect on paper. Out in the field where the real magic happens... not so much.

All equipment brands break, none are infallable. You will always need a trusted HVAC repairman, servicer, maintainer. Asside from equipment brands pay attention to details of the job. What's included what's not included. Who is doing the work? Who is going to stand behind it?

You have to pick someone who claims they know what they are doing. Someone that must be told what to do via a 3rd party "designer" might make you ask the question why a 3rd party designer would also do the work they design... I'll tell you why. It's easier to make something look good on paper. It will give you consistant quotes, but that is all.

If someone asked me for a quote of this nature... I'd tell them to have the "designer install it".

WHY? because if something goes wrong --- each party is going to blame the other. Not a good situation.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

The furnaces are similar (2-stage 96% efficiency). I would not describe them as entry level. The AC appear all to be 13 SEER single stage. This is typical of entry level equipment. The thing that would make a difference is what else is included in these quotes and the quality of the installation.

You have been quote four different size combinations. It is possible the heating and cooling load of your house falls right between the smaller and larger size. But I suspect none of these installers did any load calculations. You haven't stated if this is a new build or replacing equipment in an existing house. Selecting the correct size is an important part of the installation. You also need to know what else is being installed (coil size and brand, thermostat, line set, filter, etc.).

Mike I said: AC's are 13 SEER entry level separated from the furnaces with " / ".

Reading skills getting rusty.

13 SEER AC so entry level, they won't let you install them in the south. In the south entry level is 14 SEER.

I can recommend Air-Con and Pionneer. Excellent relation of quality and price. https://thebestminisplit.com/

Re: Austin Air

All true. This should lead to a more informed, intelligent dialogue between the client and installer to refine what should be done or not and why. Only then can it be determined if the client/contractor fit is appropriate for both parties.

Re: mike_home

I also agree that 13-SEER is entry level in 2021. This is an indicator that the OP might be more focused on price than anything else. There should at least be a discussion of higher SEER 2-Stage AC or HP unit.

IMPO

SR

"You should have a serious discussion if you should even have gas at all at this point, based on rising carbon fuel pricing and the phase out of gas & gas equipment that’s coming faster than you might otherwise think, as well as gas equipment efficiency & cost compared to all electric."

I generally agree with the beginning of your first comment above (and indicated I "liked" it) But these words I've quoted here are irresponsible. If the person's house has gas service, nothing is being phased out. Natural gas prices have been falling, not rising, in the recent past, and the US has an abundant supply for now. In much of the country, gas heating is considerably cheaper and more efficient than the types of electric, including heat pumps most would consider. No reason to scare someone asking about specific equipment choices with misleading comments suggesting their approach should be rethought.

Re: fsq4cw

For all we know this house may be located in a very cold climate which may only require AC a few weeks a year. Therefore spending additional money on higher SEER and 2-stages may not be a good investment. This is the problem when posters want feedback on their quotes while providing limited amounts of information.

If someone asked me for a quote of this nature... I'd tell them to have the "designer install it".

The idea of design and specifications coming before installation might be foreign to someone who makes their living as a replacement contractor, but it is the norm in new construction. Indeed, most new construction trades make their living bringing other people's designs to life. The framer installs structure as per the plans produced by the designer or architect. The plumber doesn't get to set the toilet where he sees fit--it goes where indicated on the plans. The electrician is guided by the applicable code when installing switches, receptacles and lighting-- he doesn't get to substitute his judgement for code. The mechanical contractor is often required to install equipment specified and ductwork designed by others (most architects sub out the design and specification of mechanical systems.)

If you want to seek competitive bids on anything, you'll need to have plans and/or specifications which serve as the basis for bidding or you'll get what you get and be left to sort the apples from the oranges. For mechanical systems, you could ask the competing bidders to do the design work in exchange for the privilege of bidding on your project, but like the old adage suggests, you get what you pay for.

Re: Charles Ross Homes

All true!

Regarding Natural Gas I can tell you that from attending professional mechanical design conferences, commercial and residential, that there’s a War on Natural Gas that’s just below your horizon - but it’s real and it’s coming fast both in the US & Canada.

This war also extends to and includes refrigerants and insulation materials derived from petrochemicals. It’s coming to grocery stores near you; your food bills will include all the equipment change overs. It’s coming to Blue states first - so Good Luck New York & California; British Columbia & Ontario too.

To the OP - it’s a real possibility parts might become unavailable or too expensive well before your new gas furnace’s useful life-cycle has ended.

IMPO

SR

The idea of design and specifications coming before installation might be foreign to someone who makes their living as a replacement contractor, but it is the norm in new construction.

yeah, I agree with you Mr. Ross. A rare occasion for sure. New construction is new construction, completely different from Retrofit market... for a variety of reasons.

A good part of my future work comes from new builds. It's rare that a builder has anything left to do with a house after about a year. On occasion it may last for a few after that first year. Usually not.

New contstruction mostly makes up, new construction. Not repair, service, maintain, replace, improvise etc.

In my experience, the more people involved in the install, design, maintain and service functions... the more likely it is that trouble will develop from those aspects. It doesn't mean that because only I service by myself --- install, maintain that there are never "any problems"... just much, much less.

It can be summed up like this: The person servicing, installing, maintaining your AC system... must not only know "what to do", they must also know "what not to do".

It's not uncommon for me to find HVAC systems that weren't installed properly from the get go. Sometimes I get these calls right after an install (installed by another company) sometimes it's years later. How would I know? two metering devices... not going to work well like that. / improper poorly run line set, over sized etc. / improper over sized duct work --- many comment here about "undersized" duct work. Like over sized doesn't create problems? The list of what can go wrong is long.... the list of "what not to do" is even longer.

So you the OP, understand the most important thing is the installation of the machine. AC is mechanical equipment, problems will develop. Gas heat is mechanical too, but in my opinion gas heat has much less that can go wrong. Air Conditioning is the primary problem child of the HVAC system. It's why I have built my career around it, chose a location well suited to "enhance" those problems.

A the end of the day... make your decision around "HVAC service" You will always need it. If you don't like the service, you probably won't like the system all that much either.

Thinking you can just have anyone install it, then anyone service it... not a wise idea Circa 2021.

Does this mean that there is anything wrong with an "entry level AC?" no. It is just describing where you fit in the scheme of things. Some AC markets don't use AC enough to justify the expense. Just as some markets (mine) don't justify the expense of a 96% condensing gas furnace.

Location, Location, Location & comfort means different things to "different" people. The comments here by me are to help you understand "the devil is in the details" not the name on the side of the box. --- the boxes regardless of the name on them --- eventually break. Sometimes it's due to who installed it. Read a few stories on this board of recent installs, you'll see what I mean.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

New contstruction (sic) mostly makes up, new construction. Not repair, service, maintain, replace, improvise etc.

Well, Ray, your perspective is not that of a trade professional involved in new construction. My trade partner knows that an HVAC system is just that--a system. It won't work properly unless everything is designed and installed properly. By doing that well, my trade partner is selected to service the HVAC systems by the vast majority of my customers after the warranty period has expired.

Done properly, new construction establishes relationships which result in more new construction for the builder and an annuity stream for trades performing routine maintenance and servicing of systems from HVAC to irrigation. At least for those who can see both the forest and the trees.

My trade partner knows that an HVAC system is just that--a system. It won't work properly unless everything is designed and installed properly. By doing that well....

So hard of a job does your trade partner have? Williamsburg, Va climate in picture below. Click to enlarge if you need to.

Not to complain as the "whole reason" I chose my market (Katy, Texas Area) over 21 years ago was that there would be serious demand for my HVAC services... from my perspective your trade partner has you duped.

A climate like yours, I would be bored to tears. This is why I have the opinion of builders I do... because here "everything's different".

You like to put HVAC in a box... much like everyone else. Location, Location, Location... same rules as Real Estate, ironically enough.

Service demands for HVAC in Katy, Texas --- I don't know of a single builder here that measures up to this task. I guess Virginia "could be" vastly different.... for the reason I laid out here. The climate.

Ray,

Our local climate is considered mixed-humid; it has characteristics of multiple climate zones (i.e., the need for heating, cooling, and humidity control,) which adds additional dimensions to the challenge of designing HVAC systems. Suggesting HVAC design is easier in our area is naive, and providing only a temperature graph as supporting evidence makes the point.

For folks interested in HVAC design, it's important to consider both humidity control (latent load) and temperature (sensible load.) Considering one without proper consideration of the other is why many folks experience uncomfortable indoor environments when the outdoor relative humidity is high. System designs also need to consider the daily swings in temperature and relative humidity which can vary much more than is indicated by daily averages.

My recommendation to houzzers is to look to folks who design things when you need design information. Which is not to say that some replacement contractors aren't a good source of, well, hot air.

Hello all,

Thanks for all comments. I will read it again. We had a HVAC study done with duct design and all. Discussing with the professional doing the calculation for cooling was 2.2 Ton . He also gave all specification/ requirements for the furnance and suggested a brand name advising that the supplier might have othet brands. I agree and will follow up on the 60,000 BTU for furnance. I was wondering if these brands are reliable or one is better than other considering they all meet the heat loss study. Again, I didn't read all comments. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience.

@mqcola,

If you provided the bidders with the specification for 2.2 tons of cooling capacity and two of them quoted 2 ton units then they either can't read or know better how to calculate the required equipment size than your HVAC designer (I'm guessing they can't read.) Take those guys off your list. You didn't state the calculated heating capacity, but the difference in the bidders is significant. Again, I'm betting they can't read.

Hi all, I read all comments and at the end my brain was frying LOL. We live in ON Canada, and AC is used only a few days in a year. For sure there were many eye opening comments, specially the changes in law and replacement parts. 13 Seer was giving by the 3rd party who did the calculation, this is the first time I am hearing it is a entry level and never requested it. There are a lot of information and I think will give all to the professional who did the calculation to help me out. . Thank you so much. I am now even concerned to ask about exhaust fans ( kitchen and bathroom). LOL. ( it will be another post). Have a great weekend.

Given your location, I'd either forgo the air conditioning, or consider a hybrid system consisting of a heat pump with a high-efficiency gas furnace back up.

Suggesting HVAC design is easier in our area is naive, and providing only a temperature graph as supporting evidence makes the point.

I wasn't suggesting.... nor did I say it would be "easy" for you... or "easy" for your 'trade partner'.

I was telling you it would be easy for me... compared to what I see in a graph of common weather for your area. I actually work in the field here in Katy, Texas. (I've never been to Virginia how else would I make a comparison weather wise? If it's 50F-60F here the phone is not likely to ring under those conditions. Who calls you for AC problems when it's 50F outside? (common sense is lost these days.)

Experience is defined by what? Sitting in an air conditioned office putting HVAC designs on paper --- is not easy? ( I have an office, I know how hard it is to sit in it.)

Working conditions I am accustomed to: Working on HVAC in 85% humidity, 95 OAT, 160F or more in attic --- which by the way is a 'normal' HVAC workday here. Heat wave conditions here 102F OAT 180F in attic or hotter... we don't have basements here --- 99% of the equipment is in the attic.

So taking that into consideration you garner some 'understanding'. I never said it would be easy for you.

Watch out for that paper in your office, it's known to cut people. Safety first. LOL.

For sure there were many eye opening comments, specially the changes in law and replacement parts. 13 Seer was giving by the 3rd party who did the calculation, this is the first time I am hearing it is a entry level and never requested it.

OP given your use requirements being so low for AC, I wouldn't worry about it that much. As you go for what is considered higher level AC thresholds all of which would be "overkill" for your market.

AC equipment is rated this way in efficiency (the amount of energy consumed to do the work of removing heat) The higher the energy efficiency rating of the machine the more it costs. How this benefits someone is in use. The more they need it, the less it costs to "run" the machine, they inturn "recoup" the higher cost of the machine thru "operational costs" --- electricity costs.

For a climate like yours... you only run the machine randomly a few days. There won't be enough "use" to dictate spending more money on the machine. So in this fashion, there is nothing wrong with an "entry level machine" -- Just explaining what it is.

There are people here in my climate that choose entry level machine to replace. Comfort means different things to different people. Some here prefer 80F in their home, they grew accustomed to warmer temps. Some move here and shoot for lower, most of the time near 70F then get shocked when those electric bills come.

Design indoor temp here is 75F btw. Still too high for many people that move here. We got crazy heat here in Katy, Texas. (about 3 clicks west of the gates of Hell.)

Ontario is a big province. The outdoor design temperature can be as low as -30F degrees in the winter, and as high as 86F degrees in the summer. The cooling season may be short, but I think you would still want to install an AC to be comfortable in a new build. If natural gas is available, then I don't see the advantage of installing a heat pump with a gas furnace as the backup given the cold winter temperatures.

There is a war on natural gas in that some areas don't want to allow the gas utilities to supply gas to new home builds. However if natural gas is available, then you don't have to worry about buying replacement parts for you gas furnace for the next 20 years. HVAC service and repair is a lucrative business and will continue for many years into the future.

The OP says air conditioning will be used only a few days a year. When installed as part of a hybrid system, a heat pump will be exercised more often and serve a useful function in shoulder seasons when a heat pump is all that's required to heat the home.

The OP would need to evaluate the cost of electricity vs. natural gas and the incremental cost of a heat pump over an air conditioner to make an informed choice.

Hello all, here I am again, sorry for the multiple posts.. I keep reading the comments and everytime I read I learn more. Thank you! I am one to blame ( a little bit LOL) as I assumed having a 3rd party evaluating the sizing everyone would follow it. I am reviewing myself the study and seeing what you all said. I did pursue a heat pump and look for possible grants, they only offer it to larger builder or renovations and not homeowners doing a single new house. Gas at our place is still less expensive than hydro so i don't think there would be a cost effective solution to have a heat pump.

It seems only one contractor send me the correct size furnace and wrong size AC. My next step tonight is to understand each manufacturer's standards for sizing and request the contractor to re quote the job.

@fsq4cw, would you be able to kindly point me which materials ( refrigerants and insulation materials) I should be concerned? I knew about some refrigerants but they were used on very old units not on new ones anymore. If you could share some link that I would learn and avoid those it would be great.

thank you all.

would you be able to kindly point me which materials ( refrigerants and insulation materials) I should be concerned? I knew about some refrigerants but they were used on very old units.

R22 freon is old refrigerant for home AC. This was phased out in 2010. Essentially banned in 2020 production wise. It can still be serviced, but costs continue to increase which in turn fuels replacements to new units using "newer" refrigerants. (essentially banned for it's destruction of ozone layer in the sky.)

Currently used R410a. It's a 50/50 mixture of two separate refrigerants. It is currently in the cross hairs of the EPA (mostly at state level here in the US currently) California begins first in 2023, not allowing any new R410a installations. There is plenty guessing as to how this may play out. No one really knows for sure, but there is really nothing holding it up now that Joe rejoined the Climate Paris accord, among many other.

The phase out of R22 has been long. The only thing R410a doesn't have going for it is the lengthy time span so there is likely a much less "stock pile" of refrigerant available than that of R22 Freon.

Here's a video that attempts to explain why this is happening, if you would like to know. It's only the tip of proverbially melting ice berg though... There will be additional parts (sequels) to this topic eventually. Stay tuned......

@mqcola,

Since you are providing the equipment specifications to the bidders, I'm not sure they have any obligation if problems with the equipment sizing are identified later. I think you'll be well served to have the person who performed the load calculations review the various bids against their specification. I'd also suggest you discuss your decision to not install a HRV with the designer. Depending on codes in your area, and how tightly your home is constructed, the HRV may not be optional.

I don't think a deep dive into the wonderful world of refrigerants or insulation or the Paris Agreement is where you need to focus at this time, but watching cartoons can be fun nevertheless.

@ Charles Ross Homes, yes, this is what I am doing, the designer will review it and for clarification, I didn't express myself well when I mentioned about the HRV, we will have one, I didn't add it to my doubts as, believe it or not, they all quoted the same system. LOL

Thank you all, I feel that now i have more information to discuss with the designer and have an educated decision.

Re: mqcola

Interesting that, ‘Googling’ this matter of refrigerant phaseout turns up very little, yet it’s a topic of conversation and concern amongst professionals. Perhaps I’ll watch Austin’s video. Just as Global Cooling became Global Warming and now Climate Change, concern about refrigerants has now morphed into, GWP (Global Warming ‘Potential’) to scare us into change over what ‘might’ be, same as the oceans are rising and the sky is falling.

Now that we know you’re in Ontario, what has been proposed for your situation is quite normal, gas furnace & AC condenser. Refrigerant phase-out will affect commercial & large scale residential long before individual home owners (remember the Federal scandal over $12-million grant for Loblaws to upgrade their freezers?). There will likely be some interim replacement that can be dumped into your new system if r410a is no longer available - even if it’s not as efficient or the lubricants shorten the life of the compressor. It’s nobody’s fault - you just pay; it’s the cost of progress.

Seriously though, this is not a big concern for you now. The gas furnace is a bigger concern as the cost of gas will be increasing due to the impossibility to get anything done in Canada except increase carbon taxes (you can thank Justin & ‘Climate Change Barbie’, as some people have unfortunately and disparagingly referred to her as).

Residential HVAC companies will get out of the furnace business and only manufacture parts for as long as the laws (state & provincial) mandate. I would caution you to consider where gas prices and carbon tax are going over the next few years. These are no longer the ‘good ole days’ of cheap energy. There is a serious push on the Electrify heating. Between the cost of gas, carbon tax and the increasing efficiencies of new ‘cold climate’ heat pumps, heat pumps are coming on strong - even with the high electrical rate of Ontario.

As your house is not too big (2.2-2.5-ton). It doesn’t sound like you’ll likely fall off the rails as far as energy costs go. But comfort? That a whole other issue.

IMPO

SR

Canadians might be reminded that the Montreal Protocol (phasing out ozone-depleting substances) was finalized in 1987. Americans should note it was ratified by the U.S. in 1988.

The Montreal Protocol

With the Kigali Amendment, the Montreal Protocol will be an even more powerful instrument against global warming. The amendment will enter into force on 1 January 2019, provided it has been ratified by at least 20 parties. The goal is to achieve over 80% reduction in HFC consumption by 2047.

How many times did the Montreal Protocol amendments?

The landmark agreement was signed in 1987 and entered into force in 1989. The parties to the Protocol meet once a year to make decisions aimed at ensuring the successful implementation of the agreement. These include adjusting or amending the Protocol, which has been done six times since its creation.

HFC = R410a, there are many others that will be reduced if not phased out completely.

However, these statements don't tell you "why". Except for 'global warming reason' ~Watch the video I posted a few posts up for a clearer picture.

Ray,

The ozone depleting potential of various halocarbons including halocarbon refrigerants has been established for some time as has their scheduled phase out--at least back to the Montreal Protocol. The debate isn't particularly germane to the OP's question; they shouldn't need to defer their HVAC purchase decision until they become qualified in atmospheric chemistry. If you'd like to debate the issue with scientists, there are folks at NASA and NOAA who will entertain it. I'm sure it will be entertaining, too.

"The gas furnace is a bigger concern as the cost of gas will be increasing due to the impossibility to get anything done in Canada except increase carbon taxes (you can thank Justin & ‘Climate Change Barbie’, as some people have unfortunately and disparagingly referred to her as)."

What kind of poppycock mumbo jumbo is this? Do you talk to people who believe baloney like this?

Natural gas is becoming a commodity with a worldwide price, just like oil. It can be shipped from place to place. Heck, we Amis would be happy to sell you more, we have plenty.

mqcola, have no concern about a new gas furnace. You'll have many years of trouble free, cost efficient service from it. .

Ray,

The ozone depleting potential of various halocarbons including halocarbon refrigerants has been established for some time as has their scheduled phase out--at least back to the Montreal Protocol.

Charles Ross,

These Refrigerants used in home air conditioning systems are not halocarbons. (why builders should stick to what they know...)

R-410A, sold under the trademarked names AZ-20, EcoFluor R410, Forane 410A, Genetron R410A, Puron, and Suva 410A, is a zeotropic but near-azeotropic mixture of difluoromethane (CH2F2, called R-32) and pentafluoroethane (CHF2CF3, called R-125) that is used as a refrigerant in air conditioning applications. R-410a is a HFC (Hydroflourocarbon) refrigerant.

Chlorodifluoromethane (Otherwise known as R22 Freon) Phased out 2010. Production ban Jan. 1, 2020. Estimated life left at higher and higher cost --- 2030.

NamesPreferred IUPAC name Chloro(difluoro)methaneOther names Chlorodifluoromethane Difluoromonochloromethane Monochlorodifluoromethane HCFC-22 R-22 Genetron 22 Freon 22 Arcton 4 Arcton 22 UN 1018 Difluorochloromethane Fluorocarbon-22 Refrigerant 22. HCFC stands for Hydrochloroflourocarbon

no halocarbons anywhere? hmm. And you thought the video was Cartoons?

The above information from the resident industry expert was copied verbatim from Wikipedia, a source available to everyone with a search. Not shown in quotes nor the source mentioned. Most of his "knowledge" is similar. How can a busy HVAC tech spend time on this in the middle of a workday?

@Austin Air Companie

These Refrigerants used in home air conditioning systems are not halocarbons. (why builders should stick to what they know...)

I really need to start charging you for providing continuing education.

A "halocarbon" is any chemical compound containing carbon and only one or more halogens. Halogens are members of group VIIa of the periodic table of the elements (which includes fluorine, chlorine, bromine, iodine, and others.) Some halocarbons are employed as refrigerant gases and others (such as methyl bromide) are not. Collectively, they are considered ozone-depleting substances.

I didn't intend to confuse you with an unfamiliar chemical term. Since you were advertising your expertise in the wonderful world of refrigerants, I figured your HVAC training included some semblance of high school chemistry. Accordingly, I made use of a basic chemical term for a class of chemical compounds. I could be wrong, but I suspect my chemical education might include a little more training than yours: I have a degree in chemical engineering. In the 18 years between my graduation and my career change to custom home builder, I designed industrial refrigeration systems, industrial air conditioning systems, and large-scale dehumidification systems utilizing both solid and liquid dessicants-- among other things. I also presented a technical paper on the phase out of ozone-depleting substances to a food industry trade association back in the early 1990's. Builders should indeed stick to what they know.

I hope you'll take your own advice and stick to what you know. Houzzers will need to sort through a whole lot less misinformation if you do.

It's a tad bit "more complicated" when it comes to commonly used refrigerants in Home Air Conditioning systems.

Halogens are often more so associated with fire extinguishers. Those "propellants" also known as CFC's were the first to go, because they were the worse offending chemicals to the Ozone layer.

Here's a snippet of what I mean.....

Freon

Freon frē´ŏn [key] [trade name], any one of a special class of chemical compounds that are used as refrigerants, aerosol propellants, and solvents. These compounds are haloalkanes, i.e., halogen derivatives of saturated hydrocarbons (see alkane). Every Freon contains at least some fluorine in its molecule, and most contain chlorine or bromine as well. Freons are generally colorless, odorless, nontoxic, noncorrosive, nonflammable, and chemically unreactive. The most commonly used is Freon-12, or dichlorodifluoromethane (CCl2F2), which boils at −29.8°C and is thus a gas at ordinary temperatures and pressures. It is prepared by the reaction of carbon tetrachloride with hydrogen fluoride in the presence of a catalyst. There are a number of other Freons. Some of those containing bromine in their molecules are used in fire extinguishers. See also chlorofluorocarbons.The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2012, Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.

Halogenated refrigerants are mostly of the CFC refrigerant family. These refrigerants were for the most part used as "propellents" like in hair spray cans, fire extinguishers etc.

So when you mentioned it my thought is that you had mixed them up. Because as you can see above they call it "halogen derivatives of saturated hydrocarbons" when considering HCFC refrigerant class.

Previous class HCFC, now HFC. So much more complicated.

@Austin Air Companie,

So when you mentioned it my thought is that you had mixed them up.

It's not more complicated, but it's clearly more complicated than you can understand. Chemicals often have more than one chemical name and often belong to more than one class of chemical compounds. Such is the case with halocarbons.

If you thought I had mixed up a class of chemical compounds you might have said so. Instead, you tried to use a combination of your limited knowledge of the subject and some cutting and pasting from Wikipedia to beat me up. You were, instead, as the Brits say, "hoisted on your own petard."

It's clear your comments and cartoons are never limited by your level of expertise or by good taste. Houzzers will be well served to skip over them if they're looking for professional commentary.

Very impressive, Charles Ross Homes. A degree in chemical engineering and nearly two decades of industrial/commercial HVAC engineering practice, a custom home builder, and a student of Shakespeare too. I was unfamiliar with the expression you used and looked it up - it's from Hamlet and basically means to become an unintended victim of something intended to do harm to someone else, to cause oneself harm. To have something blow up in your own face.

Your on-topic comments are spot on, not surprisingly so.

@Elmer J Fudd,

What a long, strange trip it's been...(Grateful Dead.)

Slightly off on the quote, but close enough. I am also enjoying the chemistry discussion.

There’s letters sealed; and my two schoolfellows,
Whom I will trust as I will adders fanged,
They bear the mandate; they must sweep my way
And marshal me to knavery. Let it work,
For ’tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petard; and ’t shall go hard
But I will delve one yard below their mines
And blow them at the moon. O, ’tis most sweet
When in one line two crafts directly meet.

— Prince Hamlet, in Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 4.

I've been on many a mouse hunt since my Shakespeare days ended.

I'm no etymologist, but it appears that the saying found its way into the British vernacular--or at least the vernacular of one Brit I worked with years ago. I found myself needing to translate lots of British expressions. I concluded, as someone once opined, that the UK and U.S. are indeed two great countries separated by a common language.

Very impressive, Charles Ross Homes. A degree in chemical engineering and nearly two decades of industrial/commercial HVAC engineering practice.

Or the skeptic would say... hmm a failed chemical engineer couldn't make it after 18 years had to go find various building materials to pound nails into.

Look you can puff your chest, work from titles...... it's nothing new. Let's brow beat the lowly licensed HVAC contractor.

I only have an Associates in HVAC/R.... I am not here to impress someone with a title... or a degree that means nothing. An associates degree is much more than most possess in this trade, I can tell you that much. Why is that important? Because Mr. Ross doesn't do my job. (he couldn't do my job even if he wanted to.) He has sub contractors & GC's do the grunt work. He likes to call them "trade partners". He is above everyone else so he can look down on them and admonish them for being "inferior" humans. Houses are built with GC's and a long list of sub contractors. But he won't waste a single moment for chastising me over things that don't matter. Can you imagine working for such a person? --- I've been there. I know the type of person Mr. Ross is.

Now you know a big reason why I am a single 1 man Licensed HVAC contractor. Owned my own company for over 13 years now. I've proven I can make it in good times as well as bad times...

There are litterally hundreds of different refrigerants. I currently work with (2) two of them 99% of the time. You don't need a chemical engineering degree for that.

I can't tell you how many engineers over the years in which I fixed their AC because they couldn't do it. I lost count long time ago. Couple more weeks I will be at 27 total Years in HVAC, 14 of which I have owned my own HVAC service company.

No failed nothing here... I use everything I studied in school.

It's not that complicated? Then why the need for this board? The post after post about some HVAC problem? They don't use a builder for long. They aren't going to call a "chemical engineer", If they did, I wouldn't exist.

Truth is stranger than fiction.