Cedar vs. Treated Wood // Fencing - 10 year plan

2 years ago

last modified: 2 years ago

Hello!

We are getting quotes for lumber to build our own 4' spaced picket fence and of course cedar is more expensive. Trying to figure out if it's truly the better option (i.e. worth the investment) for our preferences and lifestyle. I'm looking at doing everything (i.e. pickets, posts, and rails) either in cedar OR treated wood. I'm not planning to mix and match, unless using cedar for posts and rails isn't a good idea?

I'm hoping to hear from folks that have experience with fences made from these materials and also from the pros. We've never had a wood fence before so I don't know what to expect in the long term.

Location: Northern Virginia

Time: We plan to be in this house for a minimum of 10 years.

Style: Spaced picket fence, Dogeared, and natural look (i.e. no white paint).

Finish: Natural (stain vs. sealer?) My one request is *no* paint, so whatever finish that leaves us with... I'm not hung up on keep cedar looking "new" - I'm ok with the aged wood look. In fact, I'd rather the fence blend in with the natural surroundings vs. stand out.

Size: pickets to be ~ 3.5-4.0" wide, ~ 4' tall, and ~ 1" thick (probably 8' runs and 4"x4" posts)

Before anyone says it... I really don't like vinyl and truly prefer the look of real wood. So if I have to do some maintenance... so be it. I'm just trying to find the "lowest" maintenance set-up with regards to wood. ;)

Any and all insights are much appreciated!

Extra: I've seen the "fence post protectors" (slide on barriers) online. Do those really work? By that logic, couldn't I just use some of my left over green-guard (aqua-defense) and paint the bottoms of the posts prior to setting? Just spit balling.

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Comments (13)

gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
2 years ago
Where are you located? It can make a difference in cost and longevity. 'Cedar' lumber is not really cedar at all but juniper on the eastern half of the country (eastern red cedar) and thuja on the western half (western red cedar).
Sincerely Kristen thanked gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
Sincerely Kristen
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
@gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9) Ah! I am located in Northern Virginia. I will update the original post with this information! I am getting quotes from 84 Lumber and I will ask specifically which "Cedar" they are quoting. Thanks for the insight. I didn't realize this! On the phone he told me the cedar was at least 2-3X the cost of the pressure treated. So I sure hope it's long lasting, whatever it is!
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thanks squeeze, rhizo and Termater.... That MSDS was pretty interesting to read. Where do you get those? I suppose I can get one on the CWF-UV? I haven't seen one on the Olympic product, but the base is an alkyld [sp?] oil, with UV protection and mildew resistance added. I read that on the package. So if I use CWF-UV isn't that the same problem as the Olympic product? Well...I must say I am in a quandry. On one hand, I realize that the cedar has natural properties that make it resistant to weather and insects, but I also can see lots of weathered fences around that are in pretty bad shape that are cedar that have not been finished. I haven't noticed any that have been finished. It has been suggested to me that it is a waste of time and money and sweat to maintain a cedar fence because these products don't add any longevity to the fence. Not really seeing how that could be true?? Someone has suggested I just leave it alone and just pressure wash it every couple of years. I imagine the reason to do that would be if you wanted to keep the look of the cedar without it weathering too much, and not for any longevity added by doing that. On the other hand, it is really expensive to replace the fence and I would like to delay that as long as possible. I have seen wooden fences of unknown material that have been painted regulary and last a lot longer than 15 years. So the solids in the paint do keep the wood from rotting and deteriorating. If the semi transparent products and/or products that add UV protection give anywhere near the protection of paint, then I can't see how that couldn't help. It is pretty tempting to try one of these products that claim to keep your fence from deteriorating for 5 years. But the clear wood finish sounds good if it will maintain the color of the cedar, and is it much more nontoxic than the Olympic? I don't have a full understanding of these issues. The UV added sounds like it would offer me better protection, but is the ingredient they add for that much more toxic? I've been asking around, and I've been told that linseed oil has to be reapplied every year and that it will darken the wood more and more with each application. Some paint store personnel told me that using the linseed oil will actually increase mildewing of the wood and that is part of the reason for the blackening of the fence. Bill, are you saying that BOTH the CWF and the linseed oil will have this darkening effect? How long have you been using CWF, and how often do you apply Bill? In reading the directions on the website, it would appear you have to apply two coats. That would make it pretty expensive to do. My local hardware stores are offering it for $18.99 a gallon, which would bring the cost up to twice that if it requires 2 coats vs a product that requires one coat. Olympic Maximum is $24. a gallon and only requires one coat and supposedly keeps the fence for 5 years. Is the CWF when it has the UV protection in it still less toxic than the Olympic? If I went for the CWF without the UV, I would still have to apply two coats and how often does that have to be applied? Every year? Every two? My fence has galvanized nails, and it is strange that some panels and even some rails are in really good shape while others are awful and had to be replaced. One area that is good is beneath an overhanging limb of an evergreen tree. Some of the worst rails are where birds sit on them on the post and rail part of the fence. I was considering applying a product to certain panels of the fence and leaving much of it uncovered and see what difference it makes and then next year if I want to, I could coat the parts that I didn't do. I am considering doing the CWF either in the regular or UV formula, but that is going to cost me about $40 a gallon to do two coats. Adam
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Gumby - I’ve been gardening organically since the 1980s. I’ve made a lot of effort to learn how that works and to find ways of doing things that don’t require me to use chemicals. And I love doing it that way, it has a lot of rewards. So naturally, when I grow vegetables, I don’t want to wonder what might be a problem with them. If I wanted to worry, I wouldn’t bother growing my own vegetables, I’d buy them at the supermarket. At the same time, I’m also doing something for the environment. Keeping chemicals that shouldn’t be there out of the soil and perhaps out of the water supply as well as supporting ecosystems. And from experience and history, I don’t feel I can depend on a warning or even a label saying it’s okay to use. Because what might be safe to one person probably won’t be to me. I feel I can avoid investigating and researching, simply by using natural materials with no added anything, when ever possible. So, that’s the way I go about things in general. The last time I built beds, I called about a half dozen lumberyards, after finding big box stores had a problem with availability of cedar. Either they had cedar and it was too expensive or they didn’t have it at all. I finally found a small family run lumberyard, where the owner had actually had people looking for the same thing I was, wood that didn’t rot quickly to build vegetable beds but not expensive. He was steering people to Eastern Hemlock as a substitute for Cedar. I would have loved to get Redwood, but it’s not available here on the East Coast as much as it is on the West Coast. So, I went with the Eastern Hemlock last spring when we built all new vegetable beds. It worked out well and so far so good. I guess I won’t know how well it stands up to time for many years, I hope. I’m very happy with it. It was more expensive than pine but lasts longer, but less expensive than cedar. A 2x6x16 was $9. Our son is experienced with carpentry and had the tools, including the electric saws to cut everything to the size we needed and build the beds. Here is how they came out…. This is my first full season using them and I am enjoying them. We actually left the trellises on the right up all winter, with all that snow and they did great.
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gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
2 years ago
PT pine lasts about 10 years (give or take). Either of the 'cedars' (in your case, the juniper version) should last around 25. But there will be a commensurate price difference as well, as noted by your lumber supplier

Composite wood fencing (eg. Trex) has an indefinite lifespan but that too will reflect a higher cost. And may look just a bit too much like vinyl for your tastes.
Sincerely Kristen
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
@gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9) Thank you! I heard about the Trex (and the like) but when I tried to find composite fencing (specifically picket style fencing) no one sold it. All of the composite options were the tall privacy style fencing with the wider (6") planks. I was considering it for a minute there, but can't find anyone that makes it in the style we are after. :/ And I do worry a little that it would look "too perfect."
suezbell
2 years ago
The single most important factor for having your fence last will likely be the posts. If you're going to paint the fence anyway, go with treated lumber and make sure you use waterproofing on the part of the post beneath the ground and have gravel for draining in the post hole beneath that.
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
2 years ago
Even in the ground, either of the cedars will last longer than any treated lumber, painted/stained/sealed/waterproofed or not.
Sincerely Kristen
Original Author
2 years ago
@suezbell - but we are not painting it.
User
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
if you invest in cedar, get the post-on-pipe design, which will cost more but will majorly extend its life.

design: not sure what specific design you're going for, but I'd recommend paying extra for bottom trim. I thought my fence would look fine w/o it and I regret that so hard. it looks kind of ragged and unfinished.

I'm in the process of getting that fixed but I'm kicking myself so hard for not noticing while they were still here. due to the geography of our yard, our fence looked perfect from the inside, so that's why I didn't notice the problem right away. so, final advice: inspect all sides of the job every day while it's being built and don't be afraid to speak up if anything looks wrong!
Sincerely Kristen
Original Author
2 years ago
@ilovemod Thanks for the insight! I hadn’t heard of post-on-pipe. Definitely something to look into. We are going for a traditional picket fence design so the bottom trim wouldn’t be necessary. But I do see what you’re talking about in the photo! That would bug me too. I don’t blame you for wanting to add it. It’s already a gorgeous fence and will look even better once that is done!
suezbell
2 years ago
Even if you're not painting the fence, consider sealing the wood, even treated wood, with something like CWF and do waterproof the part of each post you put below ground touching gravel and dirt.

From personal experience, I can tell you that cedar siding on a house turns black over time ... less quickly if you seal it and, even if you do seal it, where the product used to seal it is exposed to sunlight and wears off, it will turn more quickly than the part that is perpetually in the shade.
Sincerely Kristen
Original Author
2 years ago
@suezbell Thank you for those insights. That is very good to know! Even though I’m not hung up on preserving the red cedar look, I think sealing it like you mentioned would be the way to go. I don’t necessarily want a black fence. Ha!
suezbell
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Especially if the black is uneven. Our siding was horizontal but the "black" color in these are a close representation of what to expect if your cedar is left bare.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/163098/what-color-to-stain-my-cedar-saltbox-house

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-old-cedar-siding-on-cottage-style-home-quebec-canada-37353075.html
Sincerely Kristen
Original Author
2 years ago
@suezbell Oh wow! Thanks for the photos. Yeah, I think we would definitely seal it. To prevent that odd discoloring and to also (hopefully) extend the life of the fence overall.

Cedar vs. Treated Wood // Fencing - 10 year plan

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