Can my humidifier play nicely with my geothermal unit?

3 years ago

Can the ClimateMaster Tranquility 30 Digital (TE) Series IOM (Model: TEV026BGD02CRTS) properly communicate with a Honeywell Steam Humidifier (HM750A1000) to only allow the humidifier to run when the fan is cycled and the heat is on? I currently have the wires running from the Air Proving on the Honeywell Humidifier to the NO1 and COM1 ports of Accessory Relay 1 on the DXM2 control board of the Climate Master. I set the DIPs all ON so that it cycles with the fan. Problem with this is that the humidifier will turn on even with the AC on, which is something I do not want, I only want humidity while heating. I saw in the manual Accessory Relay 2 has “Humidifier” as an option when setting DIPs to OFF, OFF, ON. I tried running the cables from the humidifier to the DXM2 board on these settings on Accessory Relay 2 and the humidifier would never run. I then ran a jumper from NO2 to COM2 and the humidifier started running. So when I jumped it and closed the circuit, the humidifier ran.

Questions:

How can I run the humidifier only when the fan is cycled on and the heat is on?
What does the humidifier option on the DXM2 board, Accessory Relay 2 do? What is it used for?

Humidifier manual link: https://digitalassets.resideo.com/damroot/Original/10003/33-00289EF.pdf?_gl=111f1hqf_gaMTMxNzgxNjY2My4xNjEzMTcwMzUx_ga_YHMJCTKRN2*MTYyMTQ2MDkzMS4yLjEuMTYyMTQ2MDk1My4zOA..&_ga=2.142436466.1968493250.1621460932-1317816663.1613170351

Geothermal manual link: https://files.climatemaster.com/97b0045n04-climatemaster-residential-tranquility-30-digital-te-series-geothermal-heating-and-cooling-installation-manual.pdf

Featured Answer

HU-867564120

3 years ago

Without knowing the particulars of your control board, this is a brute force approach that will work. Connect a 24v relay to the refrigerant reversing valve signal, that's what tells the refrigerant system to be in either heating or cooling. On this relay, figure out which set of contacts are closed when in heating mode. Best to use relays with low power draw coils to avoid pulling too much current from the control board. Also connect a relay to the 24v 'fan on' signal, Put the two relay contacts in series with the humidifier control and the humidifier will only run when the system is heating and the fan is on.

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (14)

fsq4cw
3 years ago
I think the steam humidifier should be controlled by a thermostat that also provides humidity control. The problem that I see is that when connecting to the DXM2 Board Accessory Relay, is that the relays are actuated whenever the compressor is ‘ON’ and the can be for either heating or cooling. The other issue is that if you do not have an ‘Air Proving’ device, then those 2-terminal points should be jumped as it says in the manual. It’s either/or - not connect them to ACC relays in the HP.

You have not provided a link to a Thermostat.

Only consider and use my information as a guide - not the gospel truth. This is theory; I’m not there and the thermostat technical data is completely omitted.

You would be best served with on-site professional help.

IMPO

SR
0
HU-682828906
Original Author
3 years ago
The steam humidifier is controlled by the a thermostat. When the 'Air Proving' is jumped it will turn on whenever humidity is called for by the thermostat. This means it will run even when its on AC, when the fan is not blowing, or when the dampers are closed for my zones (which makes a huge water mess when it condensates). This is why I am trying to hook it up to the DXM2 for communication so that it only runs if these conditions are met: 1. Thermostat is calling for humidity and 2. Heat is on and blowing. If there is another method than using the DXM2 board to accomplish those conditions please let me know.

Truezone: I have 2 zones

https://controltrends.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/HZ432-TrueZone-System.pdf

Thermostat (this link has all of them under support):

https://www.honeywellhome.com/us/en/products/air/thermostats/programmable-thermostats/visionpro-multistage-thermostat-humidity-setting-th8321r1001-u/#support
0
Related Discussions
Size of Geothermal Unit
Q
Comments (41)
I have a Waterfurnace rep coming from Rochester NY this week to look at my house and options for a GT system. I've read all of the posts thus far, and find similarities to my home, but I'd be interested to have any inputs prior to the gentelman showing up so that I ask the right questions. I have about 5000ft2 on the main level of my home (includes large garage which is heated but only to 60), 3900ft2 in the basement (only heated by the fact that the furnace is down there and the baseboard pipes for main level - it is great temperature down there year round, and we hope to finish it to about 80% of the footage), and a second story that is like a finished attic of sorts (it is the bar / poker / pool room) that is a little less than 1000ft2. So that makes almost 10,000ft2 of total heated space. Currently I heat with oil (have you checked the current prices?!!) in a System 2000 boiler in the basement and via an 8 zone baseboard system), and have four A/C units outside that drive four air handlers in the attic and all of this ductwork in the attic space. I think this is probably a unique setup, given the size of the home and the two separate systems. I am in the Binghamton region of New York State. Also of note, I have 10' ceilings in the basement, so if the new system requires air ducting, it is almost ideal for it, and still maintain 8-9' ceilings when finished. I'd really be interested in your suggestions on installation approaches / options... from vertical to horizontal and sizing of units and architecture of the system in general. thanks for all of the good info posted in this forum! Tim
...See More
Geothermal System with backup heater
Q
Comments (5)
yup I live in the mid-atlantic region and a backup to my GT is a must. When we lose power in the winter (usually ice related) we can be without GT for a day or more. When temps are in the teens, you want heat. We didn't have the gas second stage heat as an option for the GT, so we went with a wood burning fireplace insert that is rated as heater. My gas fireplaces are also rated as heaters but the single wood burner is all I need to keep the house warm enough. I have a small backup generator that provides enough power for the controls and internal fans on all fireplaces as well as portable fans that we use to move the warm air around the house. Regardless of your backup heat approach, you will need a power generator to drive the HVAC fans, tstats, and controls on the gas unit - or fans on the fireplaces. You won't need a lot of power but you have to figure that cost into the equation. You could also look at putting in a whole house backup generator to drive the GT heat pumps but when I looked at that option, the generator size was just too large and that would have cost a lot more than the backup approach we put in.
...See More
Problem Solving Geothermal Furnace Auxiliary/Emergency Heat
Q
Comments (7)
There is a problem with the electric resistance heating and its sequential operation. With all breakers ‘On’, the backup should active automatically WITH the HP (compressor ‘On’) when a demand for backup is called. This should be when either the temperature of the house drops 2-degrees or more below the set point or when the HP compressor has been running continuously for a pre-programmed period of time, that could be 45-minutes or more. Then backup comes on with the HP compressor. When the thermostat demand has been met everything shuts off and resumes ‘normal’ operation with the next demand, that is HP no backup. Emergency Heat should be electric backup no compressor, just blower. These issues are strictly electrical, programming of thermostat and HP control board. I don’t know what city you’re in or near so I can say what the ‘design temperature’ should be. I’ll make some assumptions about your system based on the information provided. It’s a 2-1/2 ton HP, 4- pipe linear horizontal non-pressurized ground loop with no expansion tank and a ‘QT’ Flow Center. As such, being non-pressurized, there is a reduced likelihood that the horizontal loops have lost contact with the ground due to contraction as a result of reduced temperature. However, it is important that you verify that the antifreeze level of the fluid in the ground loops is at least 20% as it would be quite normal that fluid level temperatures, particularly Leaving Water Temperatures (LWT) could be 25 degrees Fahrenheit. These (normal) temperatures below freezing might put your ground loops at risk of bursting should they freeze. That would be a disaster! Other issues are that your ground loops may loose contact with the earth during a prolonged dry spell. It is normal and highly desirable to have all ground loops installed with a ‘Soaker Hose’ or line and a HP selected that can monitor this condition and when called for activate a circuit, usually a solenoid, to turn ‘On’ the ‘Soaker Line’ to automatically rehydrate the earth so that the HP can resume ‘Normal’ operation. Does your system have a ‘Soaker Line’ buried below the frost line? Based on what you’ve indicated about your system operating properly when ‘fixed’ I’ll assume for now that your ground loops are sized correctly. Another factor that might be in play here is, is the flow rate high enough to generate ‘Turbulent Flow’? You need a contractor that knows about this and can verify the ‘Reynolds’s Number’. Basically, what you need is a flow rate of at least 3-gpm/ton to achieve turbulent flow and complete mixing of the circulating fluid in the ground loops. If flow rate drops below this figure, what you have is ‘Laminar Flow’ where the circulating fluid stratifies in the ground loops, circulates in a linear fashion as opposed to a turbulent fashion, and does not pick up all the heat from the ground that it was designed to. It is for these reasons that I recommend the flow meter linked to below. This device will allow you to verify the flow rate and unlike a straight gauge like a circular temperature or pressure gauge, will allow you to see the fluid and watch for air bubbles that will impede the flow, reduce the heat transfer and possibly degrade the impeller on the flow center circulator pump (which should be verified as well). However there is a reduced likelihood of bubbles in the system with the ‘QT Flow Center’. Does your system have a ‘Desuperheater’? If so please discribe it along with the buffer tank configuration and plumbing. SR Here is a link that might be useful: Flow Meter
...See More
Ceiling fan + LED fan lights + dimmer - Can they all play nice?
Q
Comments (15)
Thanks again. I did review a number of options before posting here for review by the big guns. :) I know some people love the remotes, but personally, I prefer simplicity and control via switches. A remote is one more thing to lose and/or have "hidden" by young children! And yes, our current switches are rotary-style combo setups (two knobs per switch) that control both lights and the fan - there are two settings for lights (low or high) and three speed settings for the fan - each controlled by its respective rotary knob. I've found plenty of switches that control both fan and offer dimming for lights - but all are rated for halogens or incandescents. It's just odd, and I wonder why. I did try a "dimmable" candelabra LED in our current fan/dimmer switch setup - it flickered badly on the low setting. I think some dimmable LED bulbs are okay with newer incandescent dimmers (per happy reviews from folks like JMVD), whereas other LEDs - even those rated dimmable - are more finicky. I won't beat a dead horse. I just wondered if anyone knew of combo switches rated for LEDs that I might have overlooked, or if there was a compelling reason for why they don't seem to exist yet. Maybe we'll try a Maestro switch though, and experiment. Thanks again!
...See More
fsq4cw
3 years ago
last modified: 3 years ago
“Without knowing the particulars of your control board, this is a brute force approach that will work. Connect a 24v relay to the refrigerant reversing valve signal, that's what tells the refrigerant system to be in either heating or cooling. On this relay, figure out which set of contacts are closed when in heating mode. Best to use relays with low power draw coils to avoid pulling too much current from the control board. Also connect a relay to the 24v 'fan on' signal, Put the two relay contacts in series with the humidifier control and the humidifier will only run when the system is heating and the fan is on.”

If the OP can follow and execute that approach, that I would not recommend whether it would work or not, they should be able to follow the Honeywell Humidifier installation instruction manual, with detailed instructions and diagrams and install this thing properly - without reinventing the wheel!

If they can’t do that properly and safely - they should hire a professional that can!

IMPO

SR
HU-867564120
3 years ago
fsq4cw: Agreed!
0
HU-682828906
Original Author
3 years ago
last modified: 3 years ago
fsq4cw: I am capable of following instructions. I also paid a professional to install this and that didn't help. This is not common in my area and the "Pros" around here are lost. I have called out someone else who couldn't fix it. I had a friend come over who is in commercial HVAC and he got me to the point I am at now. I called Climatemaster and they only speak to their dealers. I have exhausted my resources and now I am trying to use forums. Please bring me a suggestion other than "follow instructions" or "hire a pro". I would not be here if those already worked.
0
fsq4cw
3 years ago
Try posting a link to your T-stat.

SR
0
HU-682828906
Original Author
3 years ago
Sorry I typed this all up early and forgot to hit submit.....

I have a two zoned system. These are the other pieces of equipment....

TRUEZONE HZ432 PANEL:

https://digitalassets.resideo.com/damroot/Original/10014/69-2198.pdf?_gl=1n6qyr4_gaMTI3MTQzNTcyOS4xNjIxMzg1MDIy_ga_YHMJCTKRN2*MTYyMTU1MDUyOC40LjEuMTYyMTU1MTM3My42MA..&_ga=2.55245992.249537681.1621548227-1271435729.1621385022

TH8321R1001: The wiring diagram for the THM5421R is on page 121

https://digitalassets.resideo.com/damroot/Original/10014/33-00308EFS.pdf?_gl=1bdrptu_gaMTI3MTQzNTcyOS4xNjIxMzg1MDIy_ga_YHMJCTKRN2*MTYyMTU1MDUyOC40LjEuMTYyMTU1MTQyOS40&_ga=2.46920868.249537681.1621548227-1271435729.1621385022
0
HU-682828906
Original Author
3 years ago
Sorry I typed this all up early and forgot to hit submit.....

I have a two zoned system. These are the other pieces of equipment....

TRUEZONE HZ432 PANEL:

https://digitalassets.resideo.com/damroot/Original/10014/69-2198.pdf?_gl=1n6qyr4_gaMTI3MTQzNTcyOS4xNjIxMzg1MDIy_ga_YHMJCTKRN2*MTYyMTU1MDUyOC40LjEuMTYyMTU1MTM3My42MA..&_ga=2.55245992.249537681.1621548227-1271435729.1621385022

TH8321R1001: The wiring diagram for the THM5421R is on page 121

https://digitalassets.resideo.com/damroot/Original/10014/33-00308EFS.pdf?_gl=1bdrptu_gaMTI3MTQzNTcyOS4xNjIxMzg1MDIy_ga_YHMJCTKRN2*MTYyMTU1MDUyOC40LjEuMTYyMTU1MTQyOS40&_ga=2.46920868.249537681.1621548227-1271435729.1621385022
0
fsq4cw
3 years ago
OK, I’ve studied your situation, installation manuals and schematics down to the relay contact pin outs in the schematic of your heat pump. I see that you understand quite a bit and should be able to follow my diagnostic logic to provide me with feedback of my analysis.

I think that what you want to do is possible and there are serval ways to accomplish the configuration you’re looking for - within limits.

First of all, your thermostat, as you already know, provides nothing more than multi-stage heating & cooling with zoning - no humidity control; but no problem.

This is what I would do if this were my system. I would hook-up the Honeywell Steam Humidifier exactly as described in the Honeywell manual on page 13, Fig. 23, Humidistat to Steam Humidifier.

You can either purchase an ‘Air-Proving’ module, Resideo Differential Pressure Switch (50027910- 001) that is nothing more than a Single Pole, Single Throw (SPST) ‘Pressure Differential Switch’ that when added to the ductwork ‘Closes’ with increased static pressure provide by the blower and allows the Steam Humidifier to ‘Run’ when there’s a call for increased humidity.

I think you already know all this.

The other thing that you can do that you also know about, is to connect the 2-HUM wires from the Humidistat that would otherwise be connected to the Differential Pressure Switch directly to your ClimateMaster HP instead - or just connect 1-HUM wire directly from the Humidistat to Steam Humidifier, as in Fig. 23, pg-13 of the Honeywell manual. The other HUM wire would go to the P3 Terminal of the ClimateMaster Control board, Fig. 24 Pg 27, Acc Relay 2, Terminal P3 ‘NO’ contact with an additional wire connected from Terminal P3 Acc Relay 2 COM 2 to Honeywell Steam Humidifier ‘Main Supply’ other HUM terminal connector thus completing the circuit ‘properly’ in theory, just as if you had installed the Differential Pressure Switch, when the HP is ‘Running’.

So where does this all leave you? When the humidistat calls for increased humidity, the Honeywell Steam Humidifier will run as the 2-HUM contacts would be closed by the contacts on Acc Relay-2. This contact is ‘Closed’ whenever the compressor is running, as according to the schematic and documentation, Acc Relay 2 is in parallel with the compressor Contractor Relay and with properly configured DIP switch settings as per Table 9 Pg 30 ACC2 Relay Option ‘Cycle with compressor’ and ‘Humidifier’.

This should, in theory, bring you up to where you ought to be now. Steam Humidifier ‘ON’ whenever there is a call for increased humidity, with the compressor running and the blower is running.

So here’s what you have now. Honeywell always works when there’s a call for increased humidity, the blower is always ‘ON’ whenever the compressor is ‘ON’ because that’s how it’s designed. There may be instances when the compressor might run for several seconds before the blow starts. That could be normal and of no concern for your present situation.

What you don’t have, is the Honeywell Humidifier only running in Heating Mode, regardless of ‘Stage’. This brings you back to the Honeywell Steam Humidifier manual pg 12 Fig. 21 or 22 depending on the voltage of the humidifier.

I would recommend connecting the Honeywell Steam Humidifier power leads to a dedicated 15amp GFCI Switched outlet - just as illustrated as ‘Optional’ in Fig. 21 or 22 as the case may be. I would also label that Power Switch as follows: ‘‘OFF’/Summer AC’ and ‘ON’ Winter/Heating’’.

During the winter, in the ‘ON’ position, the Honeywell Steam Humidifier humidifies when there’s a call to do so, while the blower is running because the compressor is also ‘ON’. During the ‘Summer’, I would switch the Honeywell Steam Humidifier power ‘OFF’ so that it cannot be activated and contribute humidity and sweating of equipment and ductwork.

I personally don’t think it’s a big deal to switch the Honeywell Steam Humidifier ‘OFF’ at the end of the heating season while air-conditioning and then back ‘ON’ in the fall. That should be the biggest compromise you should face. Otherwise you would have to take HU-867564120 suggestion and find a way to make that work, which does make sense in theory.

Do post back. That includes anyone else as well that thinks I’ve lost my mind, which is often the case on this website. If you can, I’d say that you’re pretty good at HVAC & electronics!

IMPO

SR
0
HU-682828906
Original Author
3 years ago
last modified: 3 years ago
fsq4cw: Thank you for the detailed reply. I am going to look into some of those suggestions and test probably Sunday or Monday when I have the time.

The thermostat I have (TH8321R1001) does have humidity control. I can turn it on or off via the thermostat or the app (see picture below). If it falls below the threshold I set it calls for humidity. I have it turned off now because we do not need humidity, but my goal is to never have to turn it off because I would like it to run only when the heat is running. What brought me to wanting that is because last summer I could never figure out why it was "raining" from my ducts. Well what was happening is the bonehead installer set it up to call for humidity whenever it was below the thermostat threshold only. That was because he had a jumper in the AP. In the summer when I was cooling it was also calling for humidity so it would condensate in my cool ducts and "rained" out of my ducts. Then in the winter I couldn't figure out why there was always water around my heatpump. That was because if the thermostat called for humidity it didn't care whether the blower was going or the dampers were open so all the humidity would collect and condensate all over the equipment from the main supply. That's when I brought my friend in who does commercial hvac and he ran a wire from the AP to the DXM2 relay one and set it so that the humidifier would only turn on when humidity was called for by the thermostat and the blower is on. He attempted to find a way to make it run on only heat but ran out of time and went home. I really learned a lot from him that day. So here I am trying to figure the rest out.

My background is in computer systems. I am not afraid of boards, wires and schematics. I am very familiar with them, just in a different application. I am sure I can attempt anything you can throw at me. I am very thankful for your response. Knowing that my thermostat can control the steam humidifier do you have any more ideas for me to make it run only when in heating mode?

I was really hoping that running the AP to Relay 2 of the DXM2 board and setting the dip for humidifier would close the circuit only when heating but that's not the case. It doesn't close the circuit in heating or cooling. Which makes me ask the question, what the hell is that setting for? Of course I could jump the terminals and close the circuit to test and make sure everything was working and I didn't mess anything up, but it leaves me puzzled for what the "humidifier" setting does. I have researched it and never found an answer.

Yes my humidity in my house is at 64%. That's what happens here in Iowa when its finally nice enough to open your windows and shut off your heating/cooling system :)
0
fsq4cw
2 years ago
OK, so we have backgrounds that allow us to speak in a common language. Mine is in Geothermal Design & Installation with sub specialities of hybrid geothermal systems, Liquid-to-Water, hydronics with heating & cooling, geothermal drilling consultant, as well as high-end audio electronics servicing and living in Canada, the Canadian equivalent of a U.S. Extra Class Amateur Radio Operator’s Certificate & Licence.

The links you originally provided regarding T-stats mentioned in passing that they display relative humidity - not that they control humidity.

I understand what you want to do and because of your background why you want to do it. There are risks though if there are malfunctions, which is why Honeywell provides the KISS ‘Fail Save’ mode of the optional ON/OFF (Seasonal) Power Switch. Being a computer guy, you might want to also investigate what is mentioned in the Honeywell manual on page 13, Fig. 23, the ‘Equipment Interface Module’ (EIM) that might be something similar to the Carrier Infinity ‘Network Interface Module’ (NIM) that permits communication between non-standard equipment and might also enable the modes of operation that you seek.

Aside from ‘raining’ in your home, the HP will have extra long run times just trying to remove the increased latent cooling load in AC mode that a malfunction will create with the steam humidifier running. Great for your Desuperheater though - Think of all that FREE DHW! Other problems you might want to avoid would be mould, bacteria, pathogen growth in your filter & ductwork. You should also be concerned about Legionella. Another concern would be if it’s ‘raining’ inside your HP you will shorten the life of expensive components, such as the ECM Blower Motor - that’s a very expensive service call!

While our Geothermal HP does not have a humidifier component, I would not want one to be too ‘automatic’, just as we never leave the T-stat in ‘Automatic’ mode; it’s either Heating Mode, Air-Conditioning Mode or OFF - All manually selected. I don’t want it ‘hunting’ for the perfect temperature while switching from Heating to AC mode, torturing the reversing valve etc and wasting money. I also manually pull the breaker switch at the end of the heating season to make sure the backup can never come on and wait till the next heating season when it’s really cold before re-activation.

Something else that I would do if a really wanted the humidifier to be fully automatic, is that I would have its A/C power plugged into a Wifi ‘Wemo’ type device that would be a cheap and easy way to monitor it from anywhere that had WiFi or cellular coverage, allow you to monitor status including live energy consumption, immediate notification of a change in status and allow you to kill the power from virtually anywhere on the planet if you don’t like what you see.

BTW: I think your problem occurred because your installer should have known that a humidifier kill switch had to be installed because so far I don’t believe any of your equipment is capable of Humidifier operation in Heating Mode only. You’re right that the Humidifier would then run without the blower. The installer couldn’t figure out how to complete the installation and get the Humidifier up & running without that HUM/ HUM jumper.

“I was really hoping that running the AP to Relay 2 of the DXM2 board and setting the dip for humidifier would close the circuit only when heating but that's not the case. It doesn't close the circuit in heating or cooling. Which makes me ask the question, what the hell is that setting for?”

You might have to do your own trouble shooting to see if in fact Relay ACC2 functions normally on all contacts (NO & NC) and if not why not, if not related to DIP Switch configuration.

Neither ACC RLY 1 or 2 has the ability to sense mode of operation (heating or cooling), however, you might want to have a conversation with ClimateMaster regarding the function of ACC RLY 1 Configuration Table 8 Pg 30 regarding ‘ClimaDry option - Dehumidistat’ & ‘ClimaDry option - Humidistat’ and ACC RLY 2 Configuration - ‘Humidifier’ - Pg 30 Table 9.

Regarding your last question, the only thing I can think of is that it was easy enough to add at the design stage so they did. You can ask ClimateMaster that too.

How’s the ‘Rust’ situation inside your HP?

Make sure your 10-yr extended warranty remains in good standing - if you have one!

IMPO

SR
0
HU-234257289
3 months ago
Hello there, were you able to to figure it out?
0
HU-234257289
3 months ago
I would greatly appreciate if you can share your findings with me.
0