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Home Disasters Remodeling Flooring

Tile Lippage and Contractor Recourse

3 years ago

I have tried the credit card test to look at the tile lippage for my bathroom floor install, and there are multiple spots where it takes 2 credit cards to meet the adjacent tile (some places 2 credit cards isn't even enough to reach the top of the adjacent tile). This seems excessive to me. The tile are 12" x 24" porcelain with 1/4" grout lines.

From what I have seen online, the max lippage that would be acceptable is 1/16". I also have notice that when I set a new, flat baseboard in the middle of the wall, the middle of the room's tile is a high point. The baseboard is above the edge tile in one spot by 3/8".

My contractor has stopped responding, and it doesn't seem like he is going to fix this. Is there any recourse? I know he is for sure insured with State Farm, and I am trying to find if he is Bonded (first time to have any work done - learned a couple lessons). I am wanting to fire him, but I wanted to see if there is recourse to get him to fix the tile floor first. I'm hoping to not have to tear it out and redo it.

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Comments (12)

Jeff B
Original Author
3 years ago
I am attaching some pictures, since that will better show it.
PRO
Charles Ross Homes
3 years ago
According to the NAHB Residential Construction Performance Guidelines, a 1/16" lippage standard would apply to tiles smaller than 13" x 13". More lippage would be expected with larger format tiles, particularly if they are not rectified.
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I had this issue and after discussion with GC and tile co., it was all ripped up and reinstalled. If you are uncomfortable now, just wait a few months until buyers remorse hits. Also, if you were to sell the house, potential buyers would notice. Walk on it barefoot and then ask yourself if you are willing to put up with it forever. If possible, get it done right. Jerilyn, it's very unlikely it's defective material. This type of tile needs to be installed like marble, so they tell me and I went to the distributer to meet with the manager over this issue. She explained the whole thing to me. She was well aware I changed my mind on another bigger project using the very large planks. Not every tile setter can do marble but since this plank is in style right now, they all are trying to keep up. She said they offer classes to the companies who buy their supplies there but no one comes. They all think they know....sigh. After going through the process, I can't see where or how, removing a few tiles and reinstalling is an option. But I am not there. There are 4 points where adjoining tiles are going to meet up. If you adjust one, what happens on the adjoining edges. I am not a tile setter. I guess with enough experience they can make magic. This sounds like a quick fix and then what happens in a month or 6 months? Is this work guaranteed? But if you do this, before you tell anyone its okay, wait until it's dry and you can walk all over it. I saw on TV show they used a hockey puck to slide across the floor. If it's not even, the puck will bounce (lippage). Now, that might just be TV but you need to be double darn sure the job is what you want. In the end, even with a total rip up and the floor was floated to be sure it was level, I still have a few places where there is a tiny bit of lippage. It's not bad or in the walking path and I can tolerate it. The first install was like walking on very sharp edges and would even catch the sole of my shoe. When I ordered new window treatments, the woman who came to measure commented on the tile and then told me of her nightmare in a condo. It's all lippage, so much so she has rugs everywhere. It cost her a lot of money and because she didn't know any better, now she has a lot of rugs and a floor that will be a huge issue at resale. Make your stand, ask questions, go talk to the supplier without dissing anyone. Ask the GC if he would call this acceptable in a different job. I know right now it's about the cost of correcting it and ripping it out and starting over would be awfully hard for him to swallow. Did the GC sub out the tile work because that can get testy? But in the end, it's the GC who needs to work with you, you did hire him, right? I am sorry you have to go through this and I wish you all the best.
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It can be very hard to find qualified people in my area too; near Houston. It's like the wild west. No permits, not inspections, no required flood test, no nothing. The only way any inspection or flood test would be required is if the homeowner knows enough to put all that into the contract. Like knowing how to do your own surgery and putting it into the paperwork that you sign with the hospital. Ridiculous. The excellent tile pro I hired was on this site: https://www.tile-assn.com I also tried the other one posted above and didn't have luck in my area, but others have told me they have had luck. That site also has lots of info on it that is educational. Here's the link for the TCNA handbook everyone is referencing. You can buy an download version for about $40. It's about 600 pages, but you only have to read the introduction (about 50 pages) and the shower sections to get a good education. You can skip all the other chapters such as swimming pools, etc. https://www.tcnatile.com/products-and-services/publications/218-english-publications/188-handbook.html
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Sean - I’ve previously had mosaic tile installed that is EXACTLY the same re: tile extending past the edge of the mesh backing - and no lippage issues created. Also, I have two new mosaic tiles that I’m using in two bathroom renovations - and they BOTH are made the same exact way. I think this is typically how mosaic tile is installed on mesh backing. They are simply making an excuse - and hoping that you will accept it. These are the two new tiles I’m having installed (the spacing between the individual tiles looks uneven in some spots because the mosaic sheets are not laying on a flat surface) Notice that the tiles extend past the mesh backing along all four sides This sheet has some individual tiles removed - using them to replace some tiles on the sheet I’m actually having installed - but you can still see how the tiles along the edges extend past the mesh backing The mesh backing isn’t very thick - adjusting the amount of thinset used will make the edges even anyway.
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What you can expect is dependent on whether the tiles were flat to start with. If they are not dead flat, then the amount of lippage will depend on the layout as some patterns are a bit more forgiving. I presume you have some leftover tiles, and you could check them for flatness by placing them face-to-face or back-to-back to see if there are any gaps. While this should have been done before the tiling started, at least checking now will tell you if you have bowed tiles or a less-than skillful tiler. My master bath floor has 24" X24" tiles with a 3/32" grout line and the tiles were absolutely flat before being laid and display no lippage at all.
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Jeff B
Original Author
3 years ago
They are rectified tile (forum ivory porcelain tile). Surprisingly, the shower walls that were done by the same tile layer have less lippage than the bathroom floor does (mosaic tile for the shower floor).

I guess, would you deem the job acceptable (from the pictures). Pretty much the whole floor has 1-2 credit cards worth of lippage.

Also, the top pictures show how the tile "peaks" in the middle (how there is a gap on both ends of the baseboard. Would that be acceptable? The tub is also supposed to sit in the middle, which makes me think that it, likewise, will have the ends higher off the ground than the middle.

For reference, the labor for this job was $6,000 (I have not paid him the full amount because the job is not complete). Additionally, in the receipt for the tile materials they purchased a leveling kit (which was not used).
PRO
Charles Ross Homes
3 years ago
Hi, Jeff,

I'm not judging the quality of the installation--only providing one quality standard for lippage. You'll need to assess the quality against whatever standard you deem appropriate.
SJ McCarthy
3 years ago
Can you take room shots so we can see the size of the job and the size of the tiles?

How much did you pay for subfloor preparation. What used to be on the floor before the tile? Do you have before/during/after shots?
Jeff B
Original Author
3 years ago
I am attaching 2 pictures from slightly different angles. From what I have read online, it looks like it should have been 1/3 offset instead of 1/2 offset for 12" x 24" tiles (I never specified a pattern). The floor is 173" x 83".

The subfloor is wood (second story bathroom). Hardie backer board was screwed into the wood. I wasn't given a breakdown of price for different things. The quote was $6,000 for demo and tiling of the shower and floor (labor only). I do not see any standards referenced in the contract.

The flooring before was a different tile. I attached a picture I could find of it.

In Texas, there is an Implied Warranty of Good Worksmanship, defined below:

Implied Warranty of Good Workmanship: The Implied Warranty of Good Workmanship provides a warranty to the owner that the construction, repair or modification of existing property will be performed in a “good and workmanlike manner.” “Good and workmanlike” means the quality of work must be equal to the work performed by someone “who has the knowledge, training, or experience necessary for the successful practice of a trade or occupation” as judged by someone “capable of judging such work.”

I am currently searching whether "good and workmanlike manner" means following national standards (ANSI). From what I have seen, "workmanlike" means that it will follow the standards.
millworkman
3 years ago
How did he build out the shower floor? He used Hardie Backer for the base? What else did he use and how did he waterproof the whole magilla?
Jeff B
Original Author
3 years ago
The floor has a grey, thick plastic membrane covering the floor and the seat, although I realized after that they didn't replace the grey membrane from the shower prior (re-used this membrane). This membrane comes probably 4" - 6" up the walls. I don't think (fairly certain) they never pulled this up, so I'm not sure what is underneath it.

There is also a bed of mortar/cement/similar substance put down that slopes slightly down to the drain (shower floor). The walls of the shower are new Hardie Backer board that is screwed to the studs with taped and mudded seams (I think it was mudded with some thinset) and then painted with green AquaDefense.
SJ McCarthy
3 years ago
I'm not seeing anything egregious. But then again that is really hard to see from photos. Did they flood-test the shower pan? Is there a slope on the bench? Is there a slope on the wall wall cubby?

You can do a quick check with a leveller with a bubble. The slope is critical. The flood test is the BIGGEST test that is done with showers.
Jeff B
Original Author
3 years ago
I was not home before they put in the mortar/cement bed, but I do not think they did. Is it possible to block off the drain and do one after the fact? Filling it, letting any water absorb into the mud/tile, and then filling it again a few hours later?

There is a slope on the bench, but it doesn't seem like much, if any, on the bottom of the niche. The niche was a purple plastic niche purchased from a store and then cut into the wall and tiled over. There are lips around the plastic that go against (inside the shower) the hardieboard.

Overall, I have already learned that I will need to micromanage any work that is being done on my house.
PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
3 years ago
"Overall, I have already learned that I will need to micromanage any work that is being done on my house."

No, you need to vet the contractors you hire more throughly. Any customer of mine who tries to micromanage my job will be given his deposit back.

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