I had the sunny and the red knockout but they both died on me due to where they were planted in the garden. What happened was the black rubber pipe they had sim to the eaves trough had it placed so that whenever it rained really hard it would come down off the roof and into not only the ditch but into the garden and flood part of it out as it was like a moat. I wasn't aware of it at the time doing this and due to the constant freezing and thawing as well the roses eventually died on me. The first knockout I got was in this one garden but the sawfly larvae that was on the mini rose came over on to mine and did a number on it. Soooo moved it to the other garden was doing ok but then once the hostas got going and nobody actually looked after the garden letting them go wild they were overshadowing it. Move hah #3. Phoned my garden center where I got it from asked if it was okay to move it for a 3rd time and they assured me it was and just after I do to give it this quick start once every week for the next 3 weeks to help with the transplanting of it. And it has been there ever since. The tenacious rose proved to me it was going to pull through no matter what. And despite the size of it got a bloom or two on it!!! Never got around to covering any of them up last year. And it still survived. You should see it now!!!! Wow!!! Has gotten higher and has developed 4 buds on it. One of them has opened up today on it. Seems to like it there.

hmm, looks like I have to seriously rethink this. Laceyvail I knew the phlox and rudbeckia would be a problem with the deer but thought the echinacea would be OK. Last year they ate my rudbeckia to the ground but did seem to leave the sedum & echinacea. Some good suggestions all, I will have to research and rethink. David sorry I forgot to mention how large! approximately 35 deep by 25 wide, with a 35 x 35 foot veggies bed, then on the right another 35 deep x 25 wide "square". Just to the left of all this is a hawthorn grove and the bed there curves out where I plan on putting in lilacs, mountain laurel, fothergilla, mahonia, some rhodos (yes I know, I'm going to try spraying them). The area I'm planning now is a bit of a challenge because it is so large and open but I don't want any trees or taller shrubs as they will shade the vegetable garden. Again, perhaps I need to rethink a 100% perennial bed (I never seem to get these to where I am happy with them). ALL my other beds are mixed shrubs / perennial and I am quite pleased with the results so far I was just hoping to do something different here. Ok, armed with some great advice (I love this forum!) I am going to rethink and do a lot more research on the net again. Thanks all, I'm sure I'll post my second try for some much needed advice again! Sharon

I'm very late coming to this discussion. It is now May 2019. I live in Nanaimo on Vancouver Island, zone 8. I grow an extensive collection of roses, all of which are no spray. If any of my plants show enough black spot to defoliate the plant, or rust for that matter, they are shovel pruned without hesitation. However that doesn't stop me having an entire yard of roses. For Toronto consider the Canadian bred roses grown on their own roots. They are all wonderful plants. 'Campfire' is outstanding. I also have great success with 'Violet's Pride' and 'Edith's Darling' from the Downton Abby series. An outstanding rose is 'Julia Child'. This yellow rose is in it's second year in my garden. Already a very sturdy plant with no disease problems at all. So the point is, don't stop growing roses. Grow roses with superior genetics. Also make sure you have good growing conditions. That means soil that is friable and water retentive, but not water logged. I use a combination of steer manure and peat moss mixed together to create excellent soil. When watering, don't wet foliage if possible. Water the root area. Make sure your roses are getting enough sunlight.

My biggest problem with knockouts is they are not hardy... any more than alot of crown hardy roses are.. IE major winter die back, which would be fine, if they didnt market them as being hardy.. also, my best nursery completly removed its very good northern selection of roses ie canadians, rogusas and the like and replaced it, with you guess... all knockouts, rainbow knockout, regular knockout goes on and on.. a 1000 knockouts.. whoopie doopie. You will not find knockouts in maine in a hundred years like you do some of the old albas and gallicas, that have survived that long... They just dont have the hardiness to survive, maybe a few places on the coast, but like this last year, a major cold blast went through one of our warmest coastal cities, portland, I drive by a huge patch of these near a business park half of them died completly the other half are now regrowing from the crown, I dont think the landscape people are very smart, they havent pruned any of it off yet, it looks terrible! I feel like pulling over and doing it for them! Silverkelt