Questions aren't stupid. What is unacceptable is calling someone stupid (unintelligent) for asking a question.

@prairiemoon:
It is good to bring up evidence-based information, even if it goes against 'what everybody knows'.

_______________
As a further clarification, fallacious reasoning gets in the way of reasoned debate.

Beware the Straw Man fallacy.

Selling your house? Replacing expensive household stoves, furnaces,
water heaters - not to mention the piping and construction involved.

The discussion is about gas stoves & ranges, not all gas appliances.

Gas appliances will no longer be allowed in new builds in many of the towns in the SFBay area.

I am moving out of my super modern kitchen with induction and into a kitchen with a stunning gas range. One day, I imagine, I will change it out, but it is huge, the centerpiece of the kitchen and quite expensive, so for the next few years, it will be gas, well vented with windows open.

I would never choose gas in part because of the air quality (yes, we have all survived worse, but why add a bad thing to your environment when you can avoid that- there are so many bad things out there you have to live with.)

Wiscokid, how airtight our houses are is a huge issue, wrt air quality. Living in California, my doors and windows are open all the time. If I lived somewhere with lots of bugs, or bad weather, the house would be sealed and the air quality terrible.

@ THOR - I see, then I believe you misunderstood my objections to the posts by eam44. I have no quarrel at all with all of us being informed by Eam44 of these risks and being offered links to information to support that. My complaint was for the way that Eam44 responded to M Miller the way he did. Something I thought I already explained.

While it is the responsible thing to do, to share information you have become aware of that you think others should know, you can't hit people over the head with it either. It's up to them what they do with it. And in some ways, it's like planting a seed. Just because at this moment, people don't want to focus on the information and take it to the next level, doesn't mean that the information won't stay with them and they may take a more serious interest in It at a later time.

Eam44 seemed to take offense at MMIller's questions, and made it personal with name calling to boot. I fail to see anything about MMiller's questions that were offensive. And a perfectly legitimate and useful discussion was steered off course.

I agree there is no place for name calling.

@ Thor - I don’t see how all gas appliances wouldn’t be part of the discussion. I did read the response that pointed out that a furnace has it’s own chimney - and that may be correct - but applying the information that gas stoves may put you at risk, to ask about other gas appliances, seems pretty logical to me.

Personally, gas in the home is a no go for me. My Dad was a real estate broker in a family business at one time and I heard him say often enough, that he would never buy a home with gas heat, he always bought homes with hot water heat which he believed was the best heat.

We also have the tragedy that happened in Massachusetts a couple of years ago, where entire neighborhoods exploded due to gas in homes. So, while that is not a very frequent occurrence, it does impact one’s view on gas in the home. Which is neither here nor there as far as whether gas stoves produce unhealthy air in the home, but it illustrates where people are coming from when discussing the subject. It's not always a linear discussion.

And I have nothing useful to add to the discussion further. I don't even have gas...as I said. [g]

Although I agree that name-calling is unnecessary, I'm not going to get into the discussion about who or what is/isn't rude. Neither member in question is a newbie (usually the only time I voice an opinion) and they can take care of themselves.

I first read about the air quality issues relative to gas appliances about eight-ten years ago when I was researching replacement logs for my unvented gas log heaters. When we bought the units I had no idea about the problems. My parents had a gas (propane) range with a recirculating hood, and my grandmother had gas with no vent at all, as well as a propane wall heater.

IIRC, at the time I was looking for the logs, it was also suspected that the byproducts of natural gas and propane in the home might contribute to heart disease. I live in an older home, so I wasn't too worried about the exposure, although I have upgraded the AC and electric heating units to a heat pump. We now use less electricity and far less propane--I didn't even need to order propane last winter. The only reason I'm keeping the propane heaters is because we live in a rural area and experience power outages.

I do appreciate eam44's posting the info.

Prior to my first response I read the light article posted, the epa link on No2 pollution and even tracked down the original study to support your post, which ,btw, was based on estimates taken from questionnaires not actual air measures.

This is the last paragraph of an article with one of the lead scientists in the study the OP mentions.

"Logue points out that simply cooking food, even on electric burners, also emits pollutants, especially particulate matter and acrolein. “Just switching from gas to electric will not solve all your pollution issues with cooking,” she says."

Risks both health, economic and environmental ( gas uses less energy than electric) exist no matter what we cook inside on so I prefer the responsiveness of gas still.

I did read the article when it was posted. It was rather verbose, as the Atlantic is wont to do. But the core statements are surprisingly little.

It says that gas frequently is cheaper as it needs less fuel than generating and transporting electricity, although this can vary between different markets.

It states that burning gas can produce carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxides as unwanted byproducts. No surprise there. Any time you burn hydrocarbons that is a possibility.

And it says that the worst case scenario is unventilated space, where the open burners are used for room heating. It then gives an estimated worst case number for how this exceeds guidelines for safe exposure limits.

None of this is really ground breaking news. I'd be much more interested in actual measurements for well-ventilated kitchens that are only used for cooking.

Furthermore, if the article broke out the numbers for a) all electric, b) well-ventilated with adequate MUA, c) passive make up air, d) undersized vent hood, e) no external venting, then maybe we'd have actionable results. As is, this is all lots of hand waving and speculation. This is an important topic. But poorly reported fear mongering doesn't help the cause.

My Dad was a real estate broker in a family business at one time and I heard him say often enough, that he would never buy a home with gas heat, he always bought homes with hot water heat which he believed was the best heat.

Did you ever ask your dad how that water was being heated?

Prairie far more houses parish in electrical fires than gas explosions and I have hot water heat, vs forced air, but produced by a high efficiency gas boiler that replaced my oil boiler. The gas conversion improved my air quality and my bank account. The gas boiler hot water system costs far less to run than even my supplemental heat pump does. Also I do not miss the dirty petroleum smells inside oil tank causes. I am so glad to have natural gas with or without known issues. In my experience gas has been the better option over both oil and electric sources for cooking and heating.

@ arch - Hot water heat by oil.

@ Roarah - I'm sure there are a number of current solutions for heating homes that I'm not familiar with. A lot more than when my Dad was living. More efficient. But since I have no potential for considering a change for my current home and I don't see any potential for moving or building any time soon, I've not spent any time researching any of them. I do sometimes watch This Old House and they've done some renovations replacing the heating system with more efficient systems. Always interesting to watch.

Plenty of people in the country who use gas. We've lived in homes with electric heat, hot water by oil, and steam by oil. By far the least comfortable was the electric heat and the most expensive for us.

I'm surprised @opaone hasn't stepped into this dog puddle (although perhaps that is self explanatory). As I recall, he has the measurement tools to determine air quality in the home.

I was a bit surprised to see NO2 was a potential risk from a gas flame operating at room pressure at near stoichiometric carbon-oxygen mixing ratios. I believe NO2 is removed from the atmosphere by bacteria in the soil, so maybe dirt floors will be the next 'thing.' Alternatively, one can use that new tech called ventilation.

One of the mercaptans (ethyl, methyl, or butyl) are added to gas supplies so the gas has an odor. What about the SO2 that results from burning the trace amounts of mercaptan?

Full disclosure: I use an induction cooktop and electric ovens.

That would be really trace amounts of mercaptan. Humans can detect it at the parts per billion level, it is added to US natural gas at the parts per million level.

Going forward to carbon neutral energy there is a good argument to be made that everything should be electric, created with renewable sources or combustion pollutants controlled at the source.

Curious - where does all the electrical power needed to heat everyone's home come from?

Well if you're in Massachusetts, National Grid, obviously ;)

No, I mean, is it from power plants? Nuclear Power plants?

All the electrical power comes from hydroelectric plants. . . . .Sorry, that's Norway.

@prairiemoon2 z6b MA, it depends a lot on where you live. In New England, mostly gas, some nuclear, some rooftop solar, some hydro including imports from Quebec, some wind.

The original post had to do with indoor air quality being affected by indoor appliances. MA air quality is definitely adversely affected by NY area smog and Midwest coal plants, but that is a separate issue from combustion byproducts in the home.

We have a gas range and would like to switch to induction partly for the purported health benefits (and reduced ventilation needs). In terms of greenhouse gases it is probably a wash in MA - induction is efficient, but the electricity is mostly made by burning gas, inefficiently.

Isaac - I guess I was speaking globally. If we are going to switch to more electric heat and electric cars, etc. I'm thinking nuclear power plants would be necessary. Here in MA we have two local Nuclear Power Plants - one in Plymouth MA and the other right over the line in Seabrook NH.

Sorry, didn't want to send the thread off topic.

I was surprised too to hear about NOx coming from room pressure combustion. It is typical in gas and diesel engines, though more in diesel where special remediation is performed.

Gas appliances (except stoves) have always been vented to the outside due to combustion byproducts. This is nothing new. Stoves usully are not vented due to the fact that they are not in continuous use. In the home (and comercal restaurants), its a good idea to have a good vent (more than just an open window.) To me, removing a gas stove and replaceing with induction for health reasons is not that sensible. I would do it because I have a preference for induction.

No worries. I am in the electric industry so I could go on for hours but prefer not to outside of work.

Re induction vs gas stoves - a given hood will be more effective at venting with induction rather than gas because the gas produces combustion byproducts and the induction doesn't. Smoke etc. from cooking definitely impacts air quality, so even if the gas combustion products are safe, cooking with induction should be better for air quality. We have an air quality meter and an air purifier, and both have shown us that our current hood is vastly inadequate to keep the air clean. We will upgrade the hood when we renovate, but don't want to get over the CFM threshold that would force us to put in make-up air. If induction helps us get adequate venting without MUA, that would be great.

Isaac wrote, in part: "If induction helps us get adequate venting without MUA, that would be great."

Generally (or maybe specifically based on measurements reported in a certain Finnish authors' report I have referenced in the past), the maximum velocity of cooking plumes over induction cooking is lower than the plumes' velocity over gas cooking due to gas cooking including the combustion plume. This implies that the air velocity into a hood (driven by the hood system blower) can be lower with induction to ensure containment (no capture reflection out). There are many other factors, and it is possible to heat a searing skillet with induction and get a giant transient plume when throwing on the steak, requiring a high hood flow rate unless one has a quasi commercial hood with a large capture reservoir below the baffles.

I have a hood system over an induction cooktop and induction wok that I designed for 90 CFM per square foot of hood entry aperture even though there were no gas burners. It seems to work adequately, although measurements suggest it is achieving at full power over a 100 ft/min average, at least when the other kitchen exhaust blower is off.

There is always make-up air (MUA), and the relevant issue is whether the MUA is so restricted that the actual flow rate of the hood system is significantly degraded, or sufficient MUA is available, either due to house leakage, open windows, or an active or passive MUA system. Induction vs. gas may not determine whether MUA is needed, but rather the cooking to be performed on the cooktop to be defined, and the hood size needed to achieve full capture of the resulting cooking plumes.

Old news for anyone in the design industry who pays attention. Or anyone in the building industry at large trying for any type of green certification. But, like MUA, just now making it to the mainstream public and good old boy builder network.

Thank you, @kaseki! I was hoping you would show up. Yes, I meant a MUA _system_, which I would rather not have to install.

Good discussion!

A couple of macro level thoughts.

EVERY use of energy has numerous downsides - be that cooking (induction or gas), heating a home or driving a car. WE DO NOT KNOW what all of the downsides are. I write about health and medical issues and I do know that many in the medical community will not buy an induction range. Most of these will also say that they're not sure if induction is better or worse than gas from a health standpoint. However, we do have a pretty good handle on the issues with gas and believe that with good ventilation we can control these issues enough to create a safe environment. That is not necessarily the case with induction - but WE DO NOT KNOW.

FWIW, I'm quite anal about IAQ and other things that will affect my health and we just put a gas range in our new house. We also installed a very effective commercial range hood. I think I know the concerns with a gas range and controlled them well. We are still learning about the issues with induction and for me the risks are too high (though we do have some portable countertop induction hobs for occasional use).

The U.S. has the least healthy population of ALL developed countries and the lowest expected lifespan. This is primarily due to low physical activity (people in Europe and elsewhere are 5x to 17x as likely to bicycle or walk for transportation) and secondarily to poor diet but poor indoor air quality in the U.S. is also a significant contributor.

The poor IAQ comes from a number of things including generally poor ventilation with fresh air and not opening windows often enough. Also that we spend too much time indoors (or not enough time outdoors). Poor ventilation for cooking is also a known contributor. If you want to remain healthy then IAQ IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT and GOOD VENTILATION of COOKING EFFLUENT (both gas and food - there are carcinogens and other VOCs produced by cooking regardless of gas or induction) is important.

@kaseki and I and others don't espouse good ventilation for no reason. I can be exceptionally cheap and I would have loved to have not spent much or any money on a range hood, exhaust fan for our oven stack, an MUA for them and then costs to run these and condition the air that the MUA brings in.

For me though the health risks of not doing so are too great.

If we lived in a temperate region of southern France and kept our windows open all day and night then I wouldn't have spent much or anything. But we live in Minnesota in a fairly well sealed house, love to cook, hate the odors of meals past and most of all want to remain healthy in to old age.

@ June Knows - what did you mean by - "...old homes are simply too dirty to allow for "natural filtration'? I always thought that an older house that had a lot of leaks due to poor insulation and poorly fitting windows and doors, single pane glass etc. Had plenty of air circulation naturally.

Opaone - what's wrong with induction cooktops?

I was just shopping for a new stove and I've been reading up on exposure to EMFs and that is what is wrong with induction stoves, they expose you to a lot of EMFs. Electro Magnetic Fields. But they are phasing out the coil electric stoves plus they ruined the burners by making it a law that manufacturers had to add a safety feature where there is a big button in the middle of the coil that if you lift the pot off the burner it shuts off. LOL OMGosh, does anyone even test these ideas before they require a whole industry to use these poor design decisions? Lots of complaints about these buttons.

So we are getting a smooth top stove but not induction.

While some EMF may be emitted by the switching power supplies of induction cooktops (like almost all of the wall warts in use), this level is regulated by the FCC. The surface coils work at a frequency around 40 kHz, and thus a wavelengh (lambda = speed of light/frequency) of about 7.5 km, much much larger than the coil feature size and hence not easily transmitted antenna-wise.* (This is in contrast to cell phone propagation where the wavelength is commensurate with the antenna size.) Further, the coils are programmed to turn off when a magnetically inductive mass is not present to accept the power that would be coupled to it. With the mass present, the magnetic field lines are condensed into the mass and don't propagate into the kitchen.

Please provide a reference to any EMF data you have (written by someone in the field) w.r.t. induction cooktops, or health related EMF hazard levels for frequencies in the 40 kHz region.

Risk needs to be compared to being around people whose cellular telephones are constantly reporting their presence to nearby cell towers.

Bottom line is that nearly everywhere in the world one is exposed to EMF. There has to be an electromagnetic interaction with cellular processes, or thermal heating due to absorption of significant power for these to be a significant risk.

_____

*This frequency is near that used for submarine communication where immense power is fed to an antenna that can cover an entire valley. Example: JIm Creek. See https://www.navy-radio.com/commsta/jimcreek.htm. ERP over 1 megawatt, as I recall. Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Creek_Naval_Radio_Station. The station in Puerto Rico runs near 40 kHz.

I'll do one better, I have an EMF meter and I'm planning to measure exposure to everything in the house, when I get around to it.

Looking forward to the result.

Lol. Give a someone a way to measure something without teaching them if the readings have any meaning, and we get complete garbage results.

As @kaseki explained, you'll almost certainly see some readings on that EMF meter. In fact, it would be difficult not to read electromagnetic fields anywhere in our universe except for specially shielded rooms. But without a lot of additional studies it is impossible to conclude that any of these fields have the slightest impact on our bodies. And because these studies are so difficult to do, we have things like FCC rules that condense them into save exposure levels. In most cases, the health impact is actually so minor that we're more concerned about interference with other devices.

@ M - I don't know who you are trying to persuade. Why would you want to dissuade anyone from attempting to take precautions against health risks? We certainly have enough of them in the world today and many illnesses that studies have yet to 'prove' what causes them.

And you say the studies are difficult to do, meaning they prove nothing and in the next breath say, but in most cases the health impact is minor.

This is has been studied for literally at least 100 years. Once you get into ionizing radiation or into extremely high field strength, there are very real health effects. If you stay within the range that you would normally encounter anywhere in your household, we literally can't find any issues despite looking really hard. And honestly if you look at how quickly field strength drops as a function of distance and how magnetic field lines get "trapped" in cookware, you are not really seeing anything other background EMF fields that are everywhere anywhere -- and yes, many of them are man-made but many are naturally occurring. Honestly, you'd do much more for your own health by putting on sunscreen every time you go out, than worrying about an induction stove.

You are not doing anything to protect yourself from risks, if you can't show that there are risks in the first place. I can make up all sorts of imagined risks, and I can certainly drive myself crazy worrying about them. But trying to avoid these imagined risks isn't going to do anything for your health. Stopping to worry would do something for your mental health though. Yes, our world can be scary; but if you are better informed (and that doesn't include listening to alternate truths), you can actually manage what you should and should not worry about.

If you want to pick something to worry about, either pick things that are universally known to be bad, or pick things that are not studied very well and that have at least a theoretical basis for why they might be risk factors. In other words, worrying about indoor air quality makes sense. Worrying about EMF from all the electrical equipment in your house doesn't.

How long has cancer been studied? And many other things. Just because it is studied, apparently science doesn’t have all the answers. That is pretty obvious.

There is a difference between an imagined risk and a risk that science has not defined. People get sick. How often does science understand the reason? Sometimes it could be that it is a combination of many effects, but does that mean it is imagined? Many illnesses are not understood, so do we say then that the illnesses are imagined and say because there isn’t a 20 year study that defines it that there’s no sense in trying to figure it out and treat it?

It’s not an ‘alternative truth’ It’s just a lot of people who seem to have a hard time accepting that everything in the world is not understandable to a small human mind. Many things boil down to ‘theories’ even after much so called scientific study and so we all have to deal wtih uncertainties.

So, in what way are you so invested in this issue? You almost sound personally offended by the suggestion that products that produce any kind of EMF should be considered risky. Are you in the field or sell such a product? Induction stoves by chance?

And that you are in a position to direct people to what they should and shouldn’t do. I think your conversational style would improve if you speak for yourself and what you believe and accept and what you decide to do for yourself and not attempt to tell others what they should worry about and what they should not. It sounds like you believe you know everything there is to know. I’m sure you don’t really mean that but the way you speak makes it sound that way.

I've talked with a number of quite knowledgable people (in the physics and medical worlds) about health risks from induction ranges and the big huge answer from every one of them is WE DO NOT KNOW. Induction may be totally safe, relatively safe or extremely harmful. We do not know.

It is rather telling how many will not have an induction in their own homes though.

Opaone - You hit the nail on the head.

I'm not going to fight the induction vs. something-else issue other than to note that the number of people killed or maimed by gas explosions in residential housing is very likely to be higher than in non-gas residential housing, and that the number burned with coil electric ranges is likely higher than those burned with induction electric ranges.

Once cooking was performed over open fire pits in various styles of housing from Japanese traditional to teepees, and then (medieval times) in open hearths, and later coal and wood burning stoves. All modern housing, with or without adequate MUA, but with flush toilets, is likely safer from an IAQ health standpoint then historical housing.

If you worry now about induction with good MUA, contemplate the likely IAQ health risk you will have once "reset" into Klaus you-vill-own-nuttink-and-you-vill-like-it Schwab's government specified housing. And given the CCP's lead in adopting this social organization, OAQ might be a tad problematic also.

@prairiemoon2 z6b MA - you do you. If checking for EMF in your home makes you happy... go for it. If you want to build a Faraday cage and live in that, more power to you.

I do think you have a bit of a confirmation bias though. One consistent problem with these types of discussions is that they lack perspective. Since this likely isn't your field of study you have rightly become alarmed at what you have learned. However, if you did this type of research on everything around you, you would wind up standing naked in the middle of a field in a remote location.

The amount of stuff in an American home that we know can be toxic or mutagenic in excess quantities is astounding. If you really want to get upset may I suggest you research things that are known to increase the risk of disease, for which there are suitable better alternatives, but still allowed because we don't want to put financial hardships on businesses. Have you thought about the cabinets in your kitchen? Were they painted with a Xylene activated coating? Or maybe the "better" for you isocyanate activator.

So I would recommend anyone looking at any risk similar to EMF do so in the context of their overall risk of things in their home to decide the best use if their efforts for a safer home. If you decide the convenience of induction is not worth the risk, then good for you. However, I do wonder about the value of going around your house with an EMF meter, rather than putting your efforts other places, but good luck.

---

My wife is a medical researcher and she might say, "we don't really know," to a layperson. What she says to a colleague is typically more along the lines of "we found compelling evidence of...," or "we were looking for evidence of... and didn't find any." You could get the same "we don't really know," if you asked about the health effects of organic lettuce.

@kaseki, yes, sort of. We have to keep in mind that the threat posed by many IEQ things like byproducts of gas combustion and EMF are long-term exposure morbidities so stats on those are much more difficult to come by and then complicated by there still being much that we don't know with regard to how these effect us. This may be particularly presciant with EMF since the measurement data we have appears to all be from a much greater distance than that when we're actually standing at the range.

As I've said before, I'll take the monster I know and think I know how to control (NG) rather than the one that I don't know and so aren't sure how to control (EMF).

@ bry911 - I think you are reading into my posts something that isn’t there. Since I have not been alarmed or upset, I can’t see how I communicated that here. I bought an EFM meter to gain information about anything in my house that might be creating a health issue. Do I believe that EMFs are definitely a health hazard, no I don’t. But if there is the potential for that and I can reduce my exposure and that of my family with different choices then why would I choose to do otherwise?

And we happened to have to buy a new stove last week, so as we do with anything we try to do our due diligence before buying. We bought a smooth top without induction. Never used one, so we will see how that goes.

I agree with you 100% that in the world today there is very little that doesn’t raise some kind of concern. To each his own. Some people find it so overwhelming that they just throw up their hands and ignore anything and everything that could have potential risks and say ‘Cest la vie’ I would rather take the approach that my environment at least in my home and the choices I make as a consumer make a difference. I can’t control everything and many many things I can do nothing about, but what I can control, decisions I make, I am responsible for and responsible to the people in my family I live with. My kids. So, to the best of my ability to do so, I try to make responsible choices. Does it all seem futile sometimes, sure, but that’s my choice. I do what I can do, and then forget about it.

Have I thought about the cabinets in my kitchen? Of course. I researched when I redid my kitchen, and made the best decisions I could make about every material that I chose. I’ve been an organic gardener for 40 years, starting when there was no such thing as an organic movement and no Whole Foods. [g] I replaced all the products in my house with less toxic alternatives and switched from plastic food containers to glass. I buy no VOC unleaded paint, etc. etc. I prefer natural materials. It’s a lifestyle.

Do I believe that I have managed to keep us safe with my choices? No not at all. I’ve just done what I could when I could.

Consumer Reports just issued an article about the dangers of food wrappers from takeout and fast food places, including from those that have publicly committed to reducing PFAS in their packaging such as Trader Joe’s, Cava, Sweet Green, Taco Bell, etc.

With all the other emissions and outgassing in our environment I am not concerned with having a gas range with a good hood. There are millions of people in North America and around the world with gas cooktops and no ventilation for decades who live to old age.

https://www.consumerreports.org/pfas-food-packaging/dangerous-pfas-chemicals-are-in-your-food-packaging-a3786252074/

Surely they could have included Chinese food take-home containers. Bad CR.

@prairiemoon2 z6b MA said, "I think you are reading into my posts something that isn’t there. Since I have not been alarmed or upset,"

An alarm is a notification of possible danger. Being alarmed quite literally means to become aware that something bad can happen. It seems the appropriate verbiage for my use of it.

That's all you got out of my post? [g]

That's all you got out of my post? [g]

I didn't make any comments on your actions because it really isn't my business. Moreover, I didn't want to encourage you to do whatever makes you happy and then be critical of the things you decided make you happy. I just wanted to add some perspective to your points for people who might come across your post in the future, rather than discuss the specific things you are doing or should be doing.

I am happy that you researched this and made the decision you did. Maybe others will make a different decision after their research, I did.

>>>"But they are phasing out the coil electric stoves plus they ruined the burners by making it a law that manufacturers had to add a safety feature where there is a big button in the middle of the coil that if you lift the pot off the burner it shuts off. LOL OMGosh, does anyone even test these ideas before they require a whole industry to use these poor design decisions?"<<<

A couple of clarifications/additions.

Lest anybody mis-interpret what Prairiemoon said about, "phasing out the coil electric stoves" --- that is not a law or government regulation and I didn't read her post as saying otherwise. But, to be clear, the phasing-out is the result of marketing decisions and diminished demand for new coil burner appliances. Not surprising that demand would diminish when coil burners are often perceived as bottom tier products and are now being manufactured accordingly with factories making them ever-more cheaply.

The mandate for the "big button in the middle of the coil" is a requirement created by UL and not a government regulation or law. UL was known for a century and something as Underwriters Laboratories. It has been calling itself "UL" since converting from a non-profit entity to a for profit corporation about a decade ago. It was originally created to serve property insurance companies --- hence the name "Underwriters" Labs

Since 2018, UL has been requiring (as a condition for UL certification) that current coil burner appliances have a sensor system to limit cooking pot temps. IIRC, the limit is to 450°F. When the sensor/button registers the bottom of the pan going above 450°, it temporarily suspends burner power until the pan bottom's temp drops back below the limit. For as long as I can remember, radiant-electric (glass-top) ranges have been using sensors under the glass to more or less do the same thing but without actually touching the pot. The UL requirement has, AFAIK, simply mandated similar overheat-limitation systems for post-2018 coil- burners.

FWIW, this is not just a "new tech" annoyance that nobody has tested before. GE calls its current coil-burner sensor system "Sensi-Temp" which was the name it used when temperature limiting was offered it as a "feature" on some some of the coil-burner-ranges it made in the 1960s and 1970s. (Maybe into the 1980s, too?). I remember replacing the Sensi-temp sensor for a friend who had inherited a vintage 1975 GE 40-nch-wide 4 burner GE coil burner range. My recollection is that only one burner on that stove had the Sensi-Temp feature. So, now it has become a safety mandate for all burners rather than a feature on one burner. :-)

Anyway, I've seen plenty of complaints about system malfunctions, but never, until now, run across anything about the sensors shutting off a coil burner when a pan is removed.

Now, maybe there is a new requirement for "shuts-off-completely- whenever-the-pan-is-removed" coil burner and my quick internet search just didn't turn it up. If somebody has better information, can you point me to it?

FWIW, all that turned up on "shuts-off-completely- whenever-the-pan-is-removed" behavior was about inexpensive portable induction cooktops rather than coil burners. There, the behavior is a function of the cheap control electronics. Better quality induction appliances give you anywhere from 30 seconds to several minutes (depending on brand and model) in which to replace the pan without having to restart the burner. Haven't found anything about that applying to coil burners.

Thank you for clarifying for me JW. Yes, I meant that the button in the middle is a safety feature. I assumed it was a requirement by government not UL.

Whatever the reason for this safety feature, some people using it, complain about it. And the material they manufacture these buttons with, apparently is hard to clean and looks stained in consumer photos I’ve seen. But they are not putting resources into these bottom tier products I guess. I also read complaints about the pots not sitting on the burner level but rocking.

I was leaning toward getting another coil stove but the addition of this SensiTemp to the coil was just not something I wanted to put up with.

I don’t disagree with your description that the coil stoves are now bottom tier products and sure, if that many people have switched to smooth top stoves, then there is less demand for coil stoves.

I can’t say that the coil stove we are replacing was an amazing appliance. Not in the least. The feature of unplugging them to clean under them, seemed to loosen the fittings over time and the coil units were falling apart. I would have been happy to replace them but by the time you pay for all new coils and the drip pans you are putting another couple of hundred dollars into the stove. Our current stove is only 11 years old and was limping along until we’ve started having issues that the service department believes are a control panel that needs replacing.

I remember appliances we had in our homes growing up, before electronics. I don’t remember seeing a service man come to the house more than once growing up. We had washers and dryers and yes stoves that lasted 25 years. My Mom gave us her 20 year old washer when we got married and it lasted us 5 more years. I still have an Electrolux canister vacuum cleaner that is about 50 years old and still works. It was my mother's for almost 10 years that she gave to us when we married almost 40 years ago.

There used to be a company that had a slogan in their commercials, that said ‘progress is our most important product.’ This doesn’t seem like progress to me. Of course, if you want to spend thousands of dollars on the top of the line professional stove, maybe you get a different experience, but, it used to be that the average appliance people bought represented the company well.

Getting back to the original thread:

I considered induction; however, went with gas and as long as we live where we currently do, will remain with it for cooking.

Unfortunately, our local utility charges a considerable amount for gas - but even more for electricity. We have some of the highest rates in the nation. Also, we get a lot of "dirty" electricity; i.e., voltage fluctuations.

At that, we're actually lucky: because we're close to a school and a fire station, we have fewer power outages than many neighborhoods (including much more expensive homes), and the outages that do happen are much briefer. Getting the power back on ASAP in coded zones like ours is considered first priority by the utility.

So - gas it is, for the foreseeable future.

On the good side, our utility invests a lot in green energy. Many utilities in the country are still using coal-generated electricity.