Surely you have the original survey when you bought this property. Just check and see if this is even a problem. It could be something entirely different!

(I am not a lawyer) Contact a lawyer. You'll specifically want to inquire about if adverse possession applies in your situation. It will depend on your state as well as other factors, but it is possible that he cannot simply tear up the driveway as it could be yours via adverse possession.

You really need to contact an attorney for this and I suggest doing so rather fast. I would argue that your possession meets the requirements in California for a prescriptive easement.

I strongly suspect that your neighbor will balk at a court battle for a tiny piece of your driveway. If he is doing it out of spite then I suspect facing a legal challenge will change his mind. Keep your eye on the ball here, don't spend a dollar trying to save a dime, but a little aggressive signalling might work wonders.

He can rent a saw and cut the driveway off his side, but he's got no damn business wrecking a crumb on your side of the line. And good luck making that cut without trespassing on your property.

Yeah, that'll solve anything! lol

Call 811 and have the utility lines marked before he does anything. Did he have a survey or use other maps which are not accurate?

You admit it is his. Can you live with yourself honestly knowing you are trying to take what is not yours?

It looks like you have enough driveway on your side. Do you really need to quibble over this three feet?

Yes, it is odd, after all these years, and it doesn’t look like he needs that three feet. But it is what it is.

I would talk to him though. I would want to know what is going on.

In past homes we have had small issues concerning property lines, but they were with houses closer together and a foot or two mattered. In your case though it seems you have ample space.

California's adverse possession requires 5 years and that you pay taxes. The paying taxes can be a real bear to get past and it is pretty nuanced. If the driveway added tax assessed value to the property at any point more than 5 years ago then you can argue that you paid the taxes assessed on the driveway. However, that is a complicated argument that will need to be made in court and it may fail.

In California a prescriptive easement claim removes the paying taxes for five years while maintaining the other requirements. I suspect that you have a strong case for prescriptive easement and certainly a strong enough claim that the first words your neighbor's attorney will ask your neighbor are, "how much are you willing to pay to remove that driveway because this may get very expensive?" That should be sufficient to back your neighbor down.

Adverse possession removes the property from his deed, as you are actually taking some of his property by force. Prescriptive easement protects your use of his property but doesn't actually transfer ownership to you.

As for the conversation in person, I am on the fence. I often feel like a conversation before attorneys is warranted, but sometimes I feel demonstrating your eagerness to spend for an attorney sends its very own message. If your neighbor has a reason for wanting the property back, then a conversation may help, if he is doing it for less substantial reasons then I feel a conversation is probably a waste and may do harm.

Good luck.

Real estate atty. Prescriptive easement. Should be pretty clear as its been in place and used daily since you purchased and before.

He can rent a saw and cut the driveway off his side, but he's got no damn business wrecking a crumb on your side of the line. And good luck making that cut without trespassing on your property.

You destroyed your neighbor's property by putting a driveway where it was not legally allowed to be placed and are daring him to destroy your property when he removes it... Unless you get some easement or possession claim your neighbor is going to be able to remove the driveway even if that means trespassing to do it and they are going to be able to send you a bill for the entire removal. Any damage to your driveway caused by removing the driveway from his property is a direct result of your actions and he is very unlikely to be responsible for it.

This is just a great way to turn a loss of a little driveway into a loss of a little driveway and a lot of money.

My guess is they may be backing up onto his property. You may want to speak to tenant to see if they were asked to be careful. I’d then call your neighbour and discuss, so you get both sides of the story.

Worse case scenario, curve your driveway differently and it may be cheaper than hiring a lawyer.

This is not a design dilemma get a lawyer and talk to the neighbor all we can do is guess and not help one bit.

A lot of non-attorneys here confidently giving out advice. There are a BUNCH of different legal scenarios where you could keep the driveway without his consent, especially because it has been there for 12 years.

However, you would have to go to court and fight him tooth and nail for many of these scenarios to end up in your favor. It will likely be many times more expensive to do that than just alter your driveway to be on your property.

Clearly there is something going on between the renter and the neighbor. Why now is he concerned about that tiny triangle of driveway?

It’s his property and and by all means he’s entitled to have it, I wouldn’t fight it.

As we read here everyday, people do things that they don’t think affect their neighbors, but the neighbors disagree. You need to talk directly to the neighbor.

Please take advice to try and talk to your neighbor. Our driveway dispute cost our title insurance company over 40,000 dollars and our old neighbors more than that including loss of use. It was an almost three year legal battle including several days in court. Adverse possession is not always easy and for them certainly costly. In addition to having all our legal bills covered we received a cash settlement. While we certainly prevailed a would have much preferred to not have the fight at all.

Talk to your neighbor is great advice!

Prescriptive easement also adds in the caveat that the use of the property was WITHOUT CONSENT. This was part of the lawsuit we were involved in as well. The neighbor can always say that the use with WITH CONSENT and then the prescriptive easement claim doesn't apply. It gets really hard to prove one way or another without all the original parties involved. Ask me how I know ;)

Could well be adverse possession.

Talk first. If that doesn't help, immediately seek a lawyer. As suggested by others, old timers often think they can do what they can do. "I don't care what no gummit has to say 'bout it!"

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One property I lived in/rented out for 15 years, a section of the boundary fence down an untended ravine meandered 10 feet into the neighbour's 50' wide property. When I sold it, the new owner waited ten years and then claimed that portion as theirs from the next buyer next door, who then ended up having to pay to get that section back. The properties had originally been under Land Registry; if they had been under Land Titles, adverse possession would not have been applicable.

Every jurisdiction has different laws. Contact your lawyer!

However, you would have to go to court and fight him tooth and nail for many of these scenarios to end up in your favor. It will likely be many times more expensive to do that than just alter your driveway to be on your property.

No. A win for the OP is for the neighbor to crawl back in their hole and leave them alone. Everything else is a loss. Your choices are not simply give up or go to court, there is a lot of middle between the two.

The best outcome is to convince the neighbor that it is not worth it, without spending a fortune to do it. The next best outcome is to convince the neighbor to negotiate rather than take action. Most of the time these things just go away because the parties do the math and realize that a few square feet is just not worth the trouble.

You have a prescriptive easement claim, you don't want to make it in court. All you really want is the neighbor to call his attorney and hope that attorney has enough integrity to advise the neighbor to let it go.

Prescriptive easement also adds in the caveat that the use of the property was WITHOUT CONSENT.

But if you have consent, then you have a granted easement and don't need to prove prescriptive easement. A neighbor can't consent to an easement and then later take it away without addressing the detrimental reliance the consent caused.

I'm not sure a win for the OP should be the goal of this thread. The OP is essentially trying to take land that doesn't actually belong to him/her. Moving the driveway is the right thing to do. The OP has enough space towards the tree the left to move the driveway.

Consider the possibility that the neighbor's children may be behind this move. If the neighbor is aging and they are planning to take over the property, or have to sell it because they want to put their parent(s) in a nursing facility, they may be the ones who had the survey done. You really need to get the facts first hand, and make your decision about how to proceed based on the real situation of the people involved. Even if you eventually sell your home, this issue will have to be dealt with before you can put it on the market. We can't see the rest of your property, or we might make suggestions on changing your drive to avoid both the neighbor and those utilities in the middle of it. This dispute may kill any chance of you're selling in the future, so the smarter move may be to fix the long term issue right now rather than tying yourselves up in court. Do your homework with the city/utilities/survey, and so be armed to sit down and have a conversation with the instigator(s) of this action. Have a plan ready to present a solution for both of you without going to court. If you can have the meeting at their house, you may discover some of the reasons for the sudden decision. Otherwise, meet at a neutral location like a coffee shop or a comfortable hotel lobby where the public nature of things can help lower tensions and possibly voices!

Moving the driveway is the right thing to do.

Why is it the right thing to do?

If the driveway is causing harm to them, then absolutely moving the driveway is the right thing to do. However, if the driveway is not causing any harm and your neighbors are attempting to create harm for you, I see no moral imperative.

ETA: Now that the infringement is known, when/if the OP reconstructs the driveway they should move it onto their own property.

So it is you that determines what is the right thing to do?

Well, forgive me if I think legal property ownership is something to be honored in this country. When you’ve been on the receiving end of a suit and had to pay thousands to protect your interests, you learn to see the other side.

If the neighbor were the OP, the advice here would be far different.

______

“You destroyed your neighbor's property by putting a driveway where it was not legally allowed to be placed and are daring him to destroy your property when he removes it... Unless you get some easement or possession claim your neighbor is going to be able to remove the driveway even if that means trespassing to do it and they are going to be able to send you a bill for the entire removal. Any damage to your driveway caused by removing the driveway from his property is a direct result of your actions and he is very unlikely to be responsible for it.”

I thought you nailed it here, @bry911. The key words are “unless you get some easement or possession claim.” To do so, the OP would have to be the first to take action. I’m sure a lawyer would require a retainer and it can get dragged on and on and on....again, ask me how I know. The OP would come out far better using the thousands they’d spend on an attorney to just move their driveway. It looks like it needs some TLC anyway. So for a variety of reasons, it would be the RIGHT thing to do.

Since this problem was in place when you bought the property, it seems odd that it did not come to light when the due diligence was done on the purchase.

The OP is essentially trying to take land that doesn't actually belong to him/her.

Actually the OP is considering what to do. And if the OP has the legal right to the property, that determines who actually is the owner. (Of course, here in Canada, the legal definition is that all title resides in the Crown; and anything we peons get to use is a matter of the Queen's grace.)

So it is you that determines what is the right thing to do?

Yes. Unless, you happen to be a fan of predeterminism then right and wrong are always a personal choice. Our society is based on ideas of maximizing utility and minimizing harm... I hardly find it to be reprehensible on other choices.

The owner bought this property 7 years ago at which time a survey and title search should have been done. The driveway was already there I’m guessing and he may have an argument with the previous owner. Check your documents on the sale of this property first.

RE laws and practices from other states do not apply in California. OP likely has claim to an easement for the driveway and continued access. Neighbor had many years, perhaps decades prior to stop this but allowed without any objection. Should be a slam dunk.

Where the property line slices is a different matter. That does not have to be disputed. Surveys are not required at purchase. Title company likely has no liability.

Well, forgive me if I think legal property ownership is something to be honored in this country.

First, the OP is not attempting to dishonor anything. S/he is trying to avoid spending a lot of money on what appears to be a frivolous matter.

Next, you contend that a legal right doesn't exist until a court affirms it. I disagree, although the ownership is in contention now, the fact that both parties have a reasonable claim to legal ownership means both parties can reasonably and rightfully protect that claim.

Finally, there is a problem with absolutism in ethics. We could talk about it in many ways but let's keep this relevant, suppose a church builds an orphanage that helps 100 kids next to your vacant 500 acre swampland. Suppose by mistake the orphanage encroaches on your land by ten inches. Is it right for you to require the orphanage be torn down because you don't like kids? If we should always honor property rights regardless of the motives then sorry about those orphans that building has to come down.

If the neighbor were the OP, the advice here would be far different.

Mine would certainly not be, nor do I believe I would be alone in that. If there is no legitimate reason for you to need that property, bring it to your neighbor's attention and work out a deal that does not require them moving the driveway. The simplest one is a granted easement and an agreement to move only if it becomes necessary.

"Next, you contend that a legal right doesn't exist until a court affirms it."

Adverse possession has to be affirmed and ordered by a court.

Hopefully, the OP will chime back in with his/her intentions regarding this matter. Obviously, working out an agreement with the neighbor would be in everyone's best interest. In the absence of that, the OP must decide which route is going to be the least problematic from a time and financial perspective. I contend that it will be less costly and less burdensome to just let it go and widen the driveway on the other side. Being in the middle of something like this for months or years on end is NOT a place I'd want to be over such a "frivolous" matter.

Adverse possession has to be affirmed and ordered by a court.

Yes, which quite literally means the court is recognizing THE EXISTENCE OF YOUR RIGHT.

If ownership or usage rights are in dispute the OP has a right to protect their interest until it is decided.

Your assertion is that the OP doesn't have a right to protect their interest until the court "grants" that interest. That is not an accepted interpretation of our system. The OP is allowed to assert their rights without even going to court. They are even allowed to threaten legal action to induce a resolution, and one could argue the strength of that threat is directly proportional to the strength of their claim... In this case strong!

I contend that it will be less costly and less burdensome to just let it go and widen the driveway on the other side. Being in the middle of something like this for months or years on end is NOT a place I'd want to be over such a "frivolous" matter.

You are making a lot of assumptions in your assessment. What did you use for the cost of a consultation? What did you use as the cost of moving the driveway? What time did you allow for permitting, hiring contractors, etc.? Was that uncompensated time off? How much rent reduction did you give tenants while the driveway is being moved?

A consultation and cease and desist letter from an attorney is probably less than $400 ($250 in my area, I am inflating it for California) and that $400 has a very high likelihood of succeeding at removing any other costs. Personally, I suspect that letter has well over an 80% chance of making this entire thing go away. So tell me, would you spend $400 for an 80% chance to avoid spending several thousand dollars?

Where is the OP in this discussion?

Maybe in the lawyer’s ( virtual ) office??

"Personally, I suspect that letter has well over an 80% chance of making this entire thing go away. So tell me, would you spend $400 for an 80% chance to avoid spending several thousand dollars?"

I disagree. The title of that piece of property cannot be vested to the OP without either a court order awarding it or without the neighbor voluntarily signing it. Therefore, title cannot transfer to a new owner if the OP sells unless the new owner then makes the claim and has a judge award it after a deliberation of the facts. In this case, if I were the neighbor, I'd say, "Bring it on!" taking the chance that the OP wouldn't spend the money to file the lawsuit. It may depend on who ends up having deeper pockets. A court will not order that the neighbor reimburse the OP for any court costs. Again, BTDT.

Personally, I think this is a frivolous issue for all parties and I suspect that the neighbor's claim is being forced by hostile feelings toward the new tenants and/or the neighbor's family members. Hopefully, an amicable solution can be reached.

OP, dig out your papers from your purchase of the home. There should be a survey drawing showing the existing structures, fences etc and the property lines. If the driveway crossed the line, that should be noted on the drawing.

Have you seen a different survey drawing, or are there new survey markers that show the line going through the driveway?

Hopefully the neighbor is relying on a map or aerial photo on the county auditor's website, which could very well be inaccurate ( as ours is, showing my property line running through the neighbor's garage! They admit is it wrong, and said it was because of the angle of the aerial photo relative to the plat drawings superimposed on it)

Also, if you are able to contact the people that you purchased from, do so and explain the situation requesting any documentation that they may still have about the driveway/line (or even their recollection of the situation). I ran into this with the home I had in San Diego County - the adjacent greenhouse operation built a packing shed and was running large trucks over my property to access it. They tried to claim that they had previously had permission and an easement but the previous owner supplied correspondence that showed they had remediated a previous encroachment in the same strip of land, at the owner's demand.

The driveway is an eyesore. It's crumbling apart, obviously has not been maintained and is beyond repair. IMO, a better use for that lawyer money kitty would be applying it to a new driveway that is entirely on your property.

Keep in mind that the neighbor (presumably) lives there. You are an absentee landlord. When you get into an adversarial relationship w/ the person who lives full time next door, mysterious things can happen to your property. I would do my best to try to keep an amiable relationship w/ him.

"The driveway is an eyesore. It's crumbling apart, obviously has not been maintained and is beyond repair. IMO, a better use for that lawyer money kitty would be applying it to a new driveway that is entirely on your property."

Excellent point. On second thought, when he hauls the whole mess away, he's putting money in the OP's pocket with the donated labor and dump fees. You hire a damn lawyer, you never know exactly what you're getting. You hire a concrete contractor and you're getting a nice new on-your-property driveway. From a business perspective, that's the cliched no-brainer.

When we bought our house, we wanted to put up a fence. We looked up the property lines on the Auditor website. We then noticed that the farmer who owns the field behind us had planted crops on about 15feet of our property. We sort of let it go because we had more important things to worry about. The following year we noticed they tilled up further into our yard. Again, said nothing. Our neighbor told us they had an issue with the farmer and they had a survey done and showed us the stakes.

That fall when they took the crops down we planted trees about 10ft inside the property line. The farmer immediately came down and wanted to know why we had planted trees right on the property line? Did we know where the actual line was, blah, blah. Once we showed him the property lines he apologized and said he’d stay on his side now that he knew where the line was.

It wasn’t hurting me in anyway that he was using my property, but it still didn’t make it right. And just because the previous owner didn’t care, doesn’t mean I shouldn’t.

Regardless of whether the neighbor doesn't like the tenant, is exercising his right to his property, or just wants to clear the matter before selling now or in the future, the fact is that your driveway is on his property. Unless you have a written easement or are willing to pay a lawyer to determine if you have a legal right to the property then this is a good time to get the matter resolved. This maybe a problem for the neighbor when he sells but it is also a problem for you when you need to sell your home. And it could be much more costly for you down the line if there is a new neighbor who tears out the portion of your driveway on his property and sends you the bill or has the money to pursue this in court.

Talk to your neighbor to find out why he is requesting this now. If he has a problem with the tenant it may be for a very legitimate reason that you are not aware of but that could be a liability to you as a property owner. He may have been willing to overlook the property infringement as a nice neighbor when you were living in the home, but not for a non-owner. If someone is hurt on his property he bears the cost of the liability. And though you might be willing to say you would never hold him liable, the insurance company of the person injured will go after him. If he has lived there 40 years then he may be preparing to sell and he is being wise in getting this taken care of before listing the property. And you too need to resolve this because it will be problem for you when you eventually sell. Perhaps he would be willing to work out an exchange of money for moving the property line. Then you need to consider the cost for that sliver of property vs the cost of moving/replacing the driveway vs the possible legal/court costs and time.

Your neighbor was willing to spend the money to have a survey completed so don't assume that he is going to willingly concede any attempt to take his property. You may think that sending a letter from a lawyer will magically end this but as noted by several posters it could also lead to very costly legally expenses.

You are fortunate that you have the property available to move the driveway over. Get a couple quotes for the cost of moving or replacing the driveway before making any decision. It may be the least costly option in the long run.

One of the first responses was about a wall built by a neighbor that is on their property and that was fine with the neighbor just trying to get along...here in lies the issue. FF 10/20 years new people will own one or both their homes and the neighbor who lost the two/three feet has every right to it back!! There are property lines and laws for a reason and when we skirt them to be neighborly, these are the issues the crop up--LATER. The picture seems to be telling us the renter and OP are not keeping up their property and the neighbor is attempting to improve his. Sadly the laws concerning these matters tend to support history. No one complained when the driveway was wrongly placed so it could well be that two feet is lost to its "owner".

I am going to be a bit more ruthless and specific and tell you what I feel your attorney is likely to advise... it is what I would advise were you in my office.

In our current situation, I would file the case immediately and not even bother with an attempt to resolve. I would then file the notice (lis pendens) at the clerk's office to effectively remove their ability to obtain any financing on the property or sell the property, while putting them on notice that any work they are planning might have to be undone. Because of Covid the hearing will likely be almost a year out (it is in my area right now), so I would just start gathering information on moving the driveway.

At that point they are actually being sued. So they will likely see an attorney where they will be advised to settle, because their case, as presented here, is an absolute dog. I would prefer they pay to remove the easement (pay for my new driveway) or maybe I get the easement in writing. I will certainly angle for the money I spent filing the case while I am negotiating.

I would never take this to court and the odds of them wanting to take this pile of excrement to court are approaching nil. California has some of the easiest prescriptive easement laws in the country (5 years compared to Kentucky's 15... you alone have had hostile use for 7). You don't need a court to get an easement and you don't need to take part of your neighbor's land. You just need to make sure your neighbor sees your hand and is informed enough to understand what they are seeing.

I do respect those people who are advising non-legal solutions, but disagree with those who have already adjudicated the case. Additionally, my filing fees are only $200 and I believe California's are closer to $450. So you would be out $750 here and a bit more in California. There is absolutely some risk, your neighbors could be irrational and decide to fight it at all costs... just let them win. In that case, you just wasted a small chunk of money.

My very first piece of advice was see an attorney but don't spend a dollar trying to save a dime. Do the math on the driveway and if moving it is likely cheaper, then obviously, just move it.

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At this point I will bow out of this discussion. I felt it necessary to provide a more detailed response about how you can protect your interest before the matter is resolved in court in response to assertions to the contrary.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

Thanks guys, appreciate the direction. I was hoping there was some statute of limitations here but looks like the elderly gentleman is going to do what he wants. Its not worth it to me to pursue in court. If he's really set in his decision (speaking with him tomorrow) I will offer to buy the corner of land and see where that gets me. It doesn't sound like there has been any issues with the renters.

This property is in the mountains where we get lots of snow, re-paving a steeper grade driveway will make things tricky in the winter months, but looks like it is what it is. Its just unfortunate that after 12 years he decided to get aggressive with property lines as soon as I left and a family has moved in.

Not sure what the previous owners were thinking when they threw this driveway together..

He may just he am getting his affairs in order and it was brought to light. Are you sure he even knew about the encroachment the whole time?

The neighbor could be doing this out of spite, or he could be planning to sell and wants no potential buyers' objections, or perhaps he's at an age where he's thinking of what he'll leave to his heirs and wants to tidy up loose ends. It's worth having a conversation, and at least getting a quote on repaving / repairing your driveway. I wouldn't want anyone else's driveway on my property either, though I agree it's unfortunate he waited so long to say something. (Maybe he just figured it out?)

The Op replied in the post 2 above yours.

I will offer to buy the corner of land and see where that gets me.

I would check into how much the costs associated w/ buying that small chunk would be. You're talking about amendments to two pieces of property and the cost of another survey. Plus the personal hassle of getting it all done.

It may be a simple reason why this is being done. The elderly neighbor may be getting ready to sell sometime in the near future. A realtor may have told him to get a survey and noticed your driveway encroached on his property. He may be trying to eliminate problems that may come up during sale of his home, such as disputed property lines and neighbor encroachment on the property. Which could make sale of his home more difficult and cost him sales and money. I would have second thoughts on buying a home that could have issues regarding property line disputes.

It would be a good time to talk with neighbor and be a good neighbor and alter your driveway so there is no encroachment.

I guess I said pretty much what chicagoans said.

OP might have an easement by prescription defense in order to stop the neighbor from tearing up the driveway. Talk to your real estate lawyer.

Neighbor should cut the triangle ASAP and cinder block it.