Carol and Straw, I'm still looking daily on the shelter websites for mr right dog...

Thanks for your kind thoughts, every day I pray my son will experience enough gratitude and little moments of happiness until something sparks his passion. I think a puppy would do him good too.

Straw, I have to hand it to you, it is a goldmine of help to have a rose doctor in the house. I look at my rose leaves and think " more water or less water ? " was about all I could guess before reading your analysis.

I'm anxious to go on a scientific journey with the plants to get them the nutrients they need to do well. This explains to an extent why the same Austin rose in someone else's garden is a flourishing monster while in my yard it sits and languishes.

We haven't had a car since the move to Idaho, all I could haul home on the bus was potting soil for my garden. Sorry to make you shudder at the thought. There is a farm store in Coeur d'Alene I have been wanting to get to , it will be my dream vacation trip.

We're on the verge of buying a car now. My son and the roses have been brave, help is on the way !

Did you notice honey bees are absolutely crazy over Bachelor Buttons ?

Berrypie - I'm kind of a dog savant...if you need any help looking at pictures, finding the right dog...I'd love to help. :)

I sooo agree with you about Teresa!! Guessing is all that I was doing before she helped us! I still think you're right...she could write an amazing book called Growing Roses Right for Your Soil. (as in the right way or the ones best suited for your soil). My husband is very impressed with my gained knowledge...I tell him, I owe it all to Teresa!

You're getting a car! That's what I heard on the news...LOL...not that YOU'RE getting a car, but that car sales have been way up. :)

Straw - yup, the growth is stunted and the entire leaf is pale. You called it! I am going to try this today. :) Thanks so much!!!

Berrypie, I have a daughter unmarried. Only problem is she is in Portland, Oregon buying a house. She is brilliant and attractive and healthy. I do not know why young people don't rush out and make me a grandmother.

Sheila - I love your post!!! You and Berrypie should swap pictures and show them to your children. You never know!!

Matchmaker Carol, you can be in charge , i don't dare involve myself with the interests of an almost 40 year old son, no matter how much I want more grandchildren. Although,

I'm open to slave in a hot kitchen and wait hand and foot on the right dog if he comes along. The terrier next door is a terrible little bully, so I've been looking for a sweet friendly dog that will back down to a fight with Clyde the cyclone cairn. A nasty little dog the next house down is even worse. Few shelter dogs would put up with my neighbors, I really need to move.

Sheila - with a daughter like that, it's just a matter of time.

On the rose front, Bathsheba has put out the plumpest, petal stuffed, sunny yellow rose. I may never need another yellow rose beside her. I highly recommend Bathsheba if you can get through her wanting to sleep the first year.

I agree, Berrypie, there is nothing we can do really. Dogs are another story.

So true, you two. :)

Berrypie - Cairn terriers are scrappy, for sure. You sure describe Bathsheba well. :)

Carol: re-post info. here for your reference later:

Below are some tips to identify which nutrients are less available in soil:

Over-fertilization: wilting, leaves curl down.
Too acidic: leaves curl up & thinner, and blackspots.
Too alkaline: Pale, leaves twisted & crinkled (copper def).
Potassium def: zero blooms, balling, thin & weak stems, and blackspots.
Calcium def: less petals, stunt growth & tip die-back
Nitrogen def: small leaves & pale LOWEST leaves
Sulfur def: entire plant is pale & stunt growth
Iron def: pale UPPER leaves with greener veins

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/4034324/questions-on-mineral-nutrient-deficiency-in-pots-ground-fertilizer#n=66

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/3954615/mineral-deficiency-symptoms-in-roses#n=76

Great helpful info Straw, I was just wondering a few days ago what caused twisted leaves. Have copied the list for my ongoing rose file. Thanks !

Photo is of a rose I ran across on internet- Charles de Nervaux , isn't he beautiful ? There are so many out if reach, but maybe next year if possible I will be very happy to get Versigny .

Berrypie: The above pic. is gorgeous !! strongly recommend Versigny for pots .. it stays compact. It likes alkaline-tap-water as a French rose. Re-post the info. for fertilizer so you & Carol can use:

50 cents of red cabbage and $1 of distilled water to get the pH soil .. to determine how much acidic sulfur to use to dissolve sulfate of potash. Alfalfa meal has all trace elements, plus growth hormone, plus NPK 2-1-2 plus calcium & magnesium. Gypsum to de-salt soil.

Here's a pdf file on "Sodium is attached to soil particles very tightly and must be replaced before it can be leached through the soil. Gypsum is the most effective soil amendment for removing sodium from the soil. It is a slightly soluble salt of calcium and sulfate." https://efotg.sc.egov.usda.gov/references/Agency/OK/Archived_610std_107_111018.pdf

$15 for five lb. bag of sulfate of potash on Amazon (Alpha chemicals brand) .. this is cheaper than Greenway Tech. since it has less sulfur, but mixing this solid with vinegar plus sulfur can make it SOLUBLE. Acidic Sulfur granules is sold at store $10 for 4 lb.

Since roses need only one-tenth of phosphorus compared to potassium, phosphorus from fish meal or SOLUBLE-fertilizer is enough. Under alkaline condition, phosphorus is best AS SOLUBLE.

For warm climate, salty soil, or to keep roses in pots shorter: Amazon sells LOW-NITROGEN SOLUBLE fertilizer MASTERBLEND NPK 4-18-38 at $25 for 5 lb. of SOLUBLE fertilizer (same ingredients as MG-soluble, but LESS NITROGEN thus less salt).High potassium & low salt fertilizer

My neighbor uses MG Soluble for plants at NPK 24-8-16, at 5 lb. for $25. We have decent rain so rain leaches out salty nitrogen. His roses look fantastic ... nothing besides MG Soluble since our black clay is fertile & retains moisture.

For pots & alkaline & salty soil, pH 5.8 alfalfa meal UP the moisture, also low-salt organics like cottonseed meal for nitrogen & fish meal for nitrogen & phosphorus & less salt than manure, plus MASTERBLEND soluble NPK 4-18-38, plus sulfate of potash to control mildew and rust.

Re-post the ingredients in Mills Magic mix: "Karl Bapst gave this recipe for Mills Magic Rose Mix: Equal amounts of Alfalfa Meal, Fish Meal, Cottonseed Meal, Blood Meal, Bone meal, Milorganite or an activated sewage sludge." For salty soil, I would skip Milorganite (sewage sludge). For alkaline soil, I would skip bone meal (cannot be dissolve unless there's acidic rain). Blood meal is NOT as effective as alfalfa for fast growth.

After seeing Bailey's Young Lycidas (grafted-on-Dr.Huey) in a pot with 120+ blooms for spring flush, fertilized with salmon bits & shrimp shells ... I'm tempted to order fish meal on amazon.

NPK of fish meal is 8-6-0, with trace elements. Local feed store sells fish meal 40 lb. for under $40 & cheaper than Amazon. Alfalfa meal is also cheaper at farm-feed-store.

Thank you Straw your great post. I get to learn. I hope you can address watering a bit. I'm five years into rose growing but still struggle with watering. In the heat of CA summer leaves are getting burned, so I water once every day. The result, some still drying out of thirsty, while suddenly root rot for some others! Roses come so different.

Pricklycutting - are you finding root rot on your newer roses that don't have a mature root system? I'm thinking that maybe those roses that are having root rot should be repotted with a coarse sand in the soil mixture so that there is better drainage? This is what I think Straw would say. We'll see if she agrees. :) Also, something I do is I have long bamboo sticks for staking vegetables and I put sand on the top of the soil and used my sticks to make deep holes for the sand to fall into (coarse sand). It has helped a LOT!! I'm thinking of adding more sand for my Augusta Luise. I never would have thought of adding sand without Teresa's help. You can also use sticks to make deep holes for better drainage in pots that are more touch and go as to whether they need sand.

Berrypie - that picture is extremely fabulous!!! I thought that it was your rose...and I was so happy for you!!!

Teresa - Thank you!! Into the book this information goes! What about a leaf that is green, but there is a brown demarcation (middle of leaf) and then yellow at the tip? My Stainless Steel has this. But it's blooming and blooming!! I love this rose!

Rosecanadian, thanks! I use lots of perlite with potting soil. I'll try the stick. Rooted cutting die all the time for me, but 3-4 year old flowered nicely for me deaths are especially a problem. I find some roses that flower often but does not grow much are more likely to go this way.

It sounds like your roses are like mine used to be. Young roses would rot...but if the plant was vigorous enough to get through the first year...there were no problems. So I made sure to buy more vigorous roses. Straw also suggest making the soil fluffier with vermiculite which also has nutrients. So I'm going to do that with my new roses that I get in the spring. I would also try the sand (really coarse that flows well) and it will fall down the holes you make after you put the sand on top. Let us know how it goes! :)

Teresa - do you think that having a rain barrel set up in the rainy part of the year would have water that stayed acidic so I could use the water in the dry part of the summer? The water wouldn't loose its acidity would it? This sounds like a dumb question LOL...but I'm asking it anyway. :)

Carol: the water in my 6 rain barrels STAY acidic at pH 4.5 ... I have to put pea-gravel and red-lava-rock inside those barrels to neutralize acidic rain. Nutrients are most available at neutral pH to slightly acidic. pH 4.5 is too acidic. Below are the posts on rain-barrels:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2132625/rain-barrels-garden-tips-lessons-learned#n=19

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/3954461/rain-barrel-questions#n=2

Thanks Teresa! I never thought about having a rain barrel with a lid that comes off. Lots of good information there!! Thank you!! :) We're getting a little bit of rain on Sunday (almost 1/2 inch)...we really, really need rain. I think my roses will enjoy the rain. Once we got this drought through all of August, my rose leaves haven't been as good as they were when we had lots of rain earlier. Yes, some roses are doing really well...but there's a lot I'd like to kick to the garbage. LOL I'm hoping the rain will help.

Carol: we have 3 weeks of no rain, then just a tiny bit of rain recently. Tomorrow we will have 0.7 inch. of rain, I'm excited. Quick rain barrel: Shorten the rain-spout so a garbage can can fit underneath. When it's done raining, close the lid so mosquitoes don't hatch. The best rain-barrels have lid that can open easily so the inside can be rinsed. I store rain-barrels in the garage in the winter.

We have had the same weather! We had a tiny bit of rain today and more tomorrow.

That's a good idea...just a simple garbage can. Thanks!! Why do you store them in the garage over winter? I'm hoping just to keep your yard tidy LOL...my garage will be filled with roses every winter. :)

veryyy nice

Carol: I got the cheap THIN plastic garbage-bin for $11 can to store rain water and was worried that plastic might crack in winter. But last winter I left a bunch of black plastic pots (gallon-size) outside and THEY DIDN'T CRACK. So it's safe to leave SOFT plastic garbage can outside through zone 5 winter. My rain-barrels have hard-plastic spout and I don't want that to crack in winter, so I store my expensive rain-barrels inside the garage.

Ahhh!!! Thanks Teresa!

I'm getting my husband to take 10 roses into the garage tonight...it might freeze overnight, and these are ones that I want to protect because of rose hips and/or lots of buds that are about to open. The season is definitely winding down.

ARRRGGGHHHH...it's snowing!!!!! A lot!!!!!!

Carol, it's sad to see signs of summer nearly over.

We will have to look for elements of beauty Fall offers, like apple pie. And now we can rest from some of the endless garden upkeep. On to planning improvements and additions for next Spring.

The wind was fierce here today, it got my biggest cane of Evelyn, and a nice big branch of WS2000. The red buds were almost ready to open, darn wind ! Duchesse de Rohan nearly rocked out of the ground. They got shovels of heavy mud pack around the roots. That's the fastest I've worked in a long time trying to dodge the branches.

I was thinking to myself, good thing I tied up Lady of Shallot and anchored her to a bamboo trellis. I turned to look , and it was uprooted lying flat on the ground. Shes back standing up, half the height, looking like a shorn sheep.

I'm re-evaluating do I really need many more roses ? Winter pansies are looking better to me.

Photo from Pinterest

Carol: Funny that my mother-in-law from Colorado Springs e-mailed us today 9/7/20. She wrote: "Today we’re having 90 F hot temperatures, tomorrow the high will be 37 F and we’re getting 3 to 5 inches of snow. High winds are also expected. With a drop of 50 to 60 degrees by tomorrow, my arthritis will be bad." Delores.
A drop of 50 to 60 degrees within 2 days ... going from 90 F to snow the next day is crazy.

Isn't this weird!! We're going back up to 25C/77F on Wednesday. But 50 to 60 degrees is a HUGE drop in temps! And then snow!!

Berrypie - my email said that you wrote this message in this thread...but I can't find it.

Carol, it's sad to see signs of summer nearly over.
We will have to look for elements of beauty Fall offers, like apple pie. And now we can rest fro...

So, I'll respond to this...but I can't see the whole message. Weird.

Yes, fall is good too. I definitely am ready for a season change. I'm making apple crisp tomorrow...3 batches...one for us, one for my daughter and one for my neighbor who keeps making huge amounts of Vietnamese food for us!! Really, really nice new neighbor. I've been helping her train their puppy.

Another of my posts just flew away, this is getting challenging.

You have a rich life Carol; family, friends, food, puppy love and roses, that's as good as life gets !

i was lucky to only have rose damage from the storm , trees crashed through peoples homes and across the roads. Just when I thought all the gardening was done for winter, there's big cleanup for me and my neighbors yard. The fun never quits.

Berrypie - actually my life is pretty boring. LOL But maybe with the new friends next door it will get more lively.

As to posts not posting...I always copy what I write before I send it. That way I just past it again if Houzz deletes it.

Oh my goodness!!! Yes...things like a storm puts things in perspective!! Thank heavens your house and family didn't get hurt. Hopefully you can get your cleanup done without too much exhaustion. Let us know how it goes.

BerryPie - your post popped up! Now I can see all the work you did to save your roses from those terrible winds...although the winds got to a few of your roses. Winter pansies...yup...and I'm growing Streptocarpus inside...a lot less work, that's for sure. But, there's something extra special about roses. Those apple tarts look delicious!!!!!!!!!!!!

Berry pie - strong wind here too, 3 days of non-stop raining here. Love your pics. of yummy foods. Thank you. Foods make me happy, even if I don't eat them .. just looking at them is enough.

Have to look up Streptocarpus Carol, it sounds like a sick fish...

Straw, it has been extreme weather everywhere, good thing you had your rain barrel ready.

I wish I could look at just one graham cracker and be happy without eating half the package.

The mowers are here right when I wanted to work on the roses. I saw more wind broken branches on Evelyn that need trimmed off. The roses look fairly decent if I try to forget what they looked like before the storm.

I've been meaning to go over my 2021 ordering wish list , research every last detail, and narrow it down to maybe three or four. That should keep me busy awhile til the lawn mowing is done.

More flowery food from the internet, salmon roses

Berrypie and Carol: I made salmon-cake (from canned salmon) and my daughter hates it. But I love your pic. YUM !! Would love to hear what you will order for next year. Thanks.

Well Straw, besides some smoked salmon,

I said i would order three of four roses for 2021, can I retract that statement ? I only got two this year, that's a record ! for good behavior, I'm going to have to reward myself.

Mysticwaves on her ordering question, reminded me about the Antique Rose Emporium Black Friday Sale. It's going to be really tough to stick to my limit when the quantity ARE ships for free is 4 roses - that is if they do free shipping this coming Black Friday.

Francis Dubreuil, Vick's Caprice , M Franziska Kruger, La Reine , Souvenir de la Malmaison and Crimson Glory are all top contenders. I'll see what he has in stock, and if Francis Dubreuil is not available I probably will skip ARE again this time around.

Hummingbird Roses had some great choices, if she is restocked with Versigny I have to try to get that one. I should have written my list down for myself, I thought i could easily remember 4 roses...

Berrypie: I like La Reine WAY MORE than Francis Dubreuil (blooms are too small). La Reine DOES VERY WELL with my alkaline tap water and is very compact & low thorn for a pot. Souvenir de la Malmaison ... saw that at rose park, and the blooms are perfect & the best looking old-garden rose ever. Crimson Glory stayed small for me, but blooms become LESS PETALS in hot sun so I got rid of it, it's BEST IN a soaking wet pot. Versigny smells like apricot pie, you'll love it.

This is a predicament; I really wanted another Gruss an Aachen to replace the one that went to the Mailman-woman, she tells me regularly how much she loves it. So did I. Hummingbird had Madame Paul Massad too, it is of great interest to me if she has more.

Rose Petals Nursery carries Davis Store , Madame Souffrain, Kaiserin Friedrich and William R Smith i have wanted for a long time.

And of course I am tempted to get Eustacia Vye and Gabriel Oak along with Young Lycidas from David Austin .

Sorry my list is so long, and not definite, it all depends on who has what in stock. I try to pay only one shipping charge to a single nursery each year, so that really narrows it down.

Young Lycidas is VERY SMALL as grafted on Dr.Huey for me, then died through my zone 5 winter. Folks in Pakistan posted pics. of Gabriel Oak in a pot & very compact bush-shape.

Sorry Straw, that must have been sad for you to lose your Young Lycidas. If anyone could pull him through it would be you.

I really hoped to see for myself what the fragrance is like, but it sounds like YL is too big a gamble for my cold winters.

Berrypie: It was a good learning experience. Dr.Huey is best for dry & alkaline but LOAMY SOIL. Dr.Huey-bareroot doesn't grow cluster-root well in my rock hard clay. I have better luck with ESTABLISHED Dr.Huey (in a pot) which already grew cluster-root in advance. Whatever cluster-roots Dr.Huey grows in 1st year are easily zapped out in cold zone 5 winter. The rose park nearby in Alkaline clay has FANTASTIC blooming on Austin roses grafted on Dr.Huey for THE FIRST YEAR ONLY, then it's a drastic decline in 2nd year, thanks to cold winter zapping out cluster root.

I read a book on how this guy bought a SANDY plot of land in CA and converted it to growing hybrid teas for florists' roses. Grafted-on-Dr.Huey lives forever in warm climate, but its a drastic decline in cold & wet zone 5.

That is incredibly helpful to know; last year was the first year I ever bought 8 DA grafted on Dr Phooey. They made it through one winter, if they go downhill quickly I should go back to own root exclusively. The little own root bands are so much easier.

Goodnight, sleep well !

Berrypie - when my streptocarpus (carp is a fish...no wonder LOL) plants (I have 11) are bigger (they're just babies now) I'll take some pictures. Let us know which roses you're getting. We may even be able to help you whittle down your list. Okay...all this talk of food...and I went and got a small bowl of chips and a bit of pop. I'm so weak!!

Straw - fish...yuck. LOL I'm with your daughter on that one. :) Apricot pie!!! I want a rose that smells like that!!! I'll never be able to find Versigny though.

Berrypie - I have no experience with those roses...except to say that some people on the other rose forum (I don't go there anymore) absolutely love Crimson Glory planted in the ground.

I may be able to get Eustacia Vye, because Wildwood Garden Center mails roses in a bit of soil with a lot of foliage...so they're pretty good...and they're getting some Austins ... they're not sure which ones yet...or at least they're not telling. :) I would love to get this rose...it's stunning!

My 3 rose hips on Stainless Steel, Chartreuse de Parme, and John Davis are nowhere near being ripe. Hopefully there'll be enough time...but I doubt it...they're green still.

Carol: I'm tempted to order roses-grafted-on multiflora-rootstock from Palatine after I see HOW HEALTHY YOUR ROSES are in pots. It rains tons in fall here, plus we have spring flood and Dr.Huey-rootstock hates that. Dr.Huey likes it drier & loamy & alkaline with fast drainage, and my garden has too many rocks below. To make it fast-drainage for Dr.Huey rootstock, I have to spend 2 hours per hole digging all the rocks out.

For next year, MG-Soluble at NPK 24-8-16 (all-purpose for plants) may not be best, I check the ingredients and found it has potassium chloride, twice saltier than sulfate of potash, but it also has very low salt potassium phosphate, which balances it out. If it works great for you, then no need to change. See the ingredients of MG-Soluble below: https://www.domyown.com/msds/MIRACLE_GRO_ALL_PURPOSE_PLANT_FOOD.pdf

Since I have too much accumulated phosphorus (from years of using chicken-manure) .. I am leaning toward Miracle-Gro Shake 'N Feed Tomato, Fruit & Vegetable Plant Food, 4.5 lb. for $14 on Amazon. It has NPK of 10-5-15 (potassium of 15 is very good).

NPK of 10-5-15 with organic fertilizers

The ingredients are: urea (7.4% polymer coated slow-released), ammonium phosphate, feather meal, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, earthworm castings, bonemeal, potassium sulfate (sulfate of potash), calcium carbonate, dolomitic limestone (has magnesium), magnesium oxide, magnesium sulfate, copper, iron, manganese, zinc, with 6% sulfur, and 0.34% manganese, 0.92% iron, 5.6% calcium, and zinc & copper.

https://www.miraclegro.com/sites/g/files/oydgjc111/files/asset_files/3002610_CFL.pdf

Thanks for the info on Crimson Glory Carol, i'm thinking 4 from ARE would be enough for me to order this Fall. I still want to move for a bigger yard (or garage ), and could get Eustacia and Gabe some other time in the future.

Ever since the thread on fragrance, I realized that's my top priority this ordering time around. Crimson Glory and Francis Dubreuil at ARE fit the bill.

Dee-lish might be a third, and Brazos Belle looks pretty.

So that's my ordering picks for this year, but it could change tomorrow if I read Rose Forum.

Berrypie: You like Crimson Glory for the pot. Mine gave 3 blooms & one bud as a tiny-band size (one month after purchase). It's a VERY EASY bloomer. Dee-lish is BIG, mine can get 5 feet x 2.5 feet as own-root. But Dee-lish blooms well with alkaline tap water.

How pretty Straw, I can't wait to see Crimson Glory in person, the bud is so classic. I'm old and just the thought of getting a few older roses again is comforting to me. My mother had only one red rose and I loved the smell of it.

After buying mostly pastel roses for 7 years I'm in the mood for more passionate red. Getting WS2000 this year primed me for the darker roses now, and it will be more contrast for the garden. This is the most rose excitement I have felt in a long time !

Berrypie - my Dee-Lish blooms smell, but it's more like a pungent grass smell. I don't like it. I'm thinking it's because I was too liberal with the lime, etc. I should have made corrections in the pH in small increments. I'm hoping it smells better next year...or else I will toss it. I'm so glad that you're feeling rejuvenated about roses!!!

Teresa - that's excellent for a tiny band! I love the color!

My Chartreuse de Parme, Lasting Love, Nicole Carol Miller, Parade Day, Stainless Steel, Bishop's Castle, Soeur Emmanuelle, Emma Haftl, Potrait, Jacques Cartier, Julia Child, and Memorial Day roses have given me the most happiness this year. How about you two (or anyone else looking in)? :)

I would say that Chartreuse de Parme is my winner for rose of the year!!

Teresa - my inbox shows part of a message about you wanting to try roses from Palatine...but I can't find it here. Do we want to start a new thread since this is happening quite a bit...might be too m any posts for one thread?

Carol: Great idea for a new thread (YOU START IT), some possible titles for new thread, "Random concerns & questions & observations & worthy items to buy." Calcium (in lime) does mess up the scent. One time I put too much gypsum (calcium sulfate) on Angel Face and it took away its fabulous scent. Another time I put too much horse manure (has shell lime) on Bolero and it turned the scent into rotten melon. This August with 3 weeks of zero rain & hot & dry .. I tested MG Soluble for roses NPK 18-24-16 and that UP the scent in all roses. Both high phosphorus and high potassium UP the scent. Calcium (as in lime or gypsum) SUPPRESSES both potassium and phosphorus. NPK 18-24-16 made ONE BLOOM of Pretty Lady Rose reeked of strong carnation. I could not eat my dinner with that one bloom on the table ... smelled like someone spilled a bottle of perfume. I had to move that bloom of Pretty Lady Rose elsewhere, same with Munstead Wood (UP the scent many times).

Knock-outs is listed as medium-scent in HMF. I can smell Knock-outs 3 feet away when I visited local stores, they put high-phosphorus & high-potassium fertilizer-granules in the pot for tons of blooms and that UP the scent.

Teresa - Two hours of digging per hole for Dr. Huey roots sounds horrendous! Yes, I think you should order some Palatine roses to try out! They do the best when we get a lot of rain in the spring! So your rain should be perfect! Remember, the ordering starts early in the morning (7 a.m. here) this Monday.

Like I said on another thread...my roses aren't all healthy. I have quite a few where I did damage by over correcting for pH. Some it really did help...but some I know I just made it worse. LOL I'll do better next year...small amounts.

I talked to you about changing the fertilizer I use on a different thread. I may just keep alternating different fertilizers.

Sure, I'll start another thread!

I wrote down the information you posted about P, K and Ca and how they affect fragrance. Thanks!