New house, Septic/leach Field Replacement placed in escrow whois wrong

4 years ago

Hi Everyone. I'm posting a mess of a question in hopes to receive some help on ideas on how to handle this issue, Of course, I'm accountable for my own actions, I'm a very understanding person generally, however, I'm just trying to tread lightly here and get a grasp on the reality of it.

We purchased a home a few months ago, we closed at the very beginning of the covid outbreak.

When the septic was tested, I was told it needed replaced, and the estimate would be put into Escrow with our title company. We closed, and have been living here for 2-3 months now without issue. The only thing I was told, was effluent was at the surface.

I had tried to get information on it specifically before closing, during and after. I was just being told that it was up to the health department and they haven't figured it out yet, but it would be up to code and fully functional, but it would be a " replacement". They gave an estimate of $11,000, So $16,000 was held in Escrow.

3 months have passed, the seller, and sellers agent have been harassing the company that he hired to do the work, They kept saying " it had to dry out first". I agreed, Obviously i'm the one who deals with the mess if it is installed in poor conditions. It's a well known local company, I had originally thought highly of them.

So, Anyway, We get a call 3 days before they start working. I'm not told what is happening, or going to happen, I ask, And I was told that I could " talk to one of the guys" when they get here.

We purchased this house because it had a .85 acre flat lot, Literally, probably 70 percent of the reason. We have 4 small children and it was just a requirement for us. one guy shows up a day early, and says " hey, Is it cool If I leave this here" Its a mini backhoe. So I said, Of course.

The next day, a fleet of vehicles, trailers, a skid steer, and about 15-25 loads of sand and dirt in my front yard, one of those giant 18 wheeler looking dump trucks. All i was told was " sand is on the way, it's going here" and he pointed. I mean, anyone in their right mind would assume some type of care would be taken.

Anyway, Once everyone arrives I try to go out and talk to them, but the main guy ( the owner of the company's son) was very " hasty" with his responses and generally provided no help. I continued to ask what was being done, all I'm told is a new 1,000 gallon tank and a leach field, from one of the workers. Okay, Whatever sounds good.

About 5 minutes later, I was asked, do you know where your property line is, I said 'not specifically, no". I wasn't told if this had any impact or importance.

So, 3 hours later, they install the new 1,000 gallon tank, only to find out they are leaving the original tank, and attaching this new tank. Okay... So its like turning a 1 tank system into a 3 tank system ( like the newer one's have). I was told "Yup".

At this point, I'm not told anything without specifically walking up to someone, stopping them, and firmly asking. I found out that they are leaving the entire system original ( from watching them, not from them telling me although I asked multiple times and explicitly stated I had not a single clue what they were installing). Even then, The boss man got agitated and would immediately get on to the person I was speaking with.

I then catch the " boss man" dig up an active water line to the mobile home at the end of the lot ( we own it also) He's just digging away, sees it, and tries to hide it with dirt. Again, Agitated, But I was pretty pissed at this point. I had to forcefully get into his way of using his backhoe for him to stop. He said " oh, yea, thats an old line, no big deal". When I told him it was an active water line that he just dug up, That I had turned it off just in-case, He looked pretty red in the face but said " no problem, ill fix it tomorrow" and covered everything back up with dirt.

They start scraping up 1/3 of my yards usable space directly behind the house, so I ask, What is that for, You know, thinking they are marking the ground where the new leach field will go. I'm told " thats for the new field system" I asked how big it was going to be, because that's the space for the kids to play. He tells me something like 25x80 feet- Okay whatever, just asking.

Turns out, they started building mounds of sand, So clearly I was like " woah, what the hell are you doing??" he then explains, oh, it will only be about 1.5 feet tall, the system is going above ground.

So clearly, My mind is racing at this point and I'm Livid, I talk to my wife, and decide against telling them all to leave until this is figured out, In fear that would somehow breach the contract with the seller and they wouldn't be responsible for the costs.

the next day, MY ENTIRE ( well, 85-90 percent) front yard is destroyed, its all uneven dirt/sand remnants, when it was a completely flat lot, No grass left, I'm sure you get the picture.

When I look outside, the mounds are almost 3 feet tall in the backyard. At this point, this clearly isn't anything that was told to us, or we agreed to in any way. At this point, I'd rent a damn port-a-potty for the rest of the time we live here instead of that.

When the health inspector got here, I had a chat with him and he cleared up quite a bit, Since he is the one who required it. Turns out, He said, when he did the testing, 8" down and 12" down across the yard was standing water, ( groundwater) and the current field is 3 feet down, So, It can't function underwater and it was backing up into the septic tank ( above the exit port, which I was NEVER told about). That this was the only system that would work for this property. He then explained that it was a pump tank being installed, not an expansion to the tank, and above ground leach field was the only option. Even the septic "boss man" said it was rare within a like 200 mile radius of us( he gave 3 examples that are hours away from us, that I deduced to 200 miles in general).

I proceed to ask him the most important question of all in my opinion " What about the 17,000 gallons of water that was flushed through the system when you did that test". Backstory, When we requested the tank be inspected, and he did this test, no realtor, or anyone else used the "lockbox" to enter the home until we did the walkthrough. It was something like 300 gallons of water for the test, and XX days later he did the testing of the ground. Well, when we did the walk-through, it was on, we received a $1,000 water bill in the sellers name, for the same time period. We pressed our realtor, the sellers realtor over and over about how this may have skewed the results of the septic, They said " its not a big deal, the seller will have to pay the bill".

I do want to add, When I asked this question, the inspector's face changed, he even gulped. then the septic company and the health department stared at each other in silence for a moment, before the health inspector proceeded to say " well someone must have left it on after I left" While the septic " boss man" stared me down, I mean longer than anyone in the two days here have received eye contact with him. He walked away, health department guy left it at that. After that, both of them seemed even more salty with me.

My point is, 100% percent I have basically harassed for this information to be given to us, before, and after closing and told our realtor to let us know since we wanted to approve it on what we was told was a " whole septic replacement". I also on multiple occasions pressed this water issue ( the 17,000 gallons) telling them I bet it doesn't even need replaced. Again, who cares, sellers agreed to it already.

All in all, I feel this will DEFINITELY devalue the home, and it has removed the entire reason we chose this property( yard space), we would have never agreed to, or purchased this home under these conditions. I would have discussed alternatives, or another location for the field, instead of a giant heaping unusable space in our main yard. From what I can find searching, asking, and driving by, this type of system is unheard of around here. The water table has to raise 30 some feet before it floods our home, So about 25 feet to be level with the yard.

Also, The previous owner who lived here for 20 years, stopped by to tell us that this house isn't worth the appraisal, that they left off the flood in 1997. The situation with that, after 20 years he was forclosed on, a local foot doctor purchased this place, flipped it and sold it to us. He made it a point to tell me I should sue him, That he on multiple occasions said he should include that information on the disclosure, which he signed a " waiver" stating he didn't live here long enough to know of any issues instead of a disclosure. The entire time our realtor reassured us this was normal, and okay.

My issue with the company doing the work, the " boss man" won't talk to you like his life depends on every single minute, and won't let anyone else talk to me either. He dug up, and tried to hide 3 separate issues. ( Water line, an old inactive cable and satellite cable). I only care about the water line though.

they have been throwing every bit of their trash into the holes in our yard, then proceeding to back-fill over it, Including food trash, water bottles, Gatorade bottles, basically anything they have. Some of this is even going into the new leach field. I found a bag of " doughnuts' on top of my new A/C unit getting ready to fall inside that they left.

I think the most annoying part, Is that this "new" system is only an add on to the old system. The new " tank" and leach field are HIGHER than the original leach field, meaning it will only come into use, when the old field backs up! They used a T on the original line, that has about a 1 foot raise before it goes into the new tank. Something else that was weird, CLEAR water was draining out of the septic tank when they cut the line.

Basically, I feel like not only did none of this need to be done due to someone's error with flooding our yard with 17,000 gallons of water, and inability to alert the right person of this mistake, But it has also devalued our home, as well if a home being flooded before devalues it more. Let alone the now unusable space.

I'm ready to just walk away from the mortgage and all and tell them all where to stick it, but then in my opinion the people who made these mistakes are not held accountable for their actions, and someone else is left with footing the bill.

In your opinion, what would you do ( aside from contacting a lawyer)?

Is this normal, and i'm just being " that guy" over it?

I'm genuinely lost within this mess, which I feel is what everyone is counting on. So any help IS appreciated.

I have tried to be as detailed as possible, but would definitely answer any further questions about this.

Featured Answer

remodeling1840

4 years ago

In some states the title company is holding the money in escrow until the work is complete. Notify them IN WRITING about the problems you have shared here.

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Comments (14)

Mike Lebarr
Original Author
4 years ago
All in all, I feel I was given information slowly and inaccurate. Enough to be like " oh okay" instead of the truth, until the truth came. Playing down the situation in every scenario, until it became a reality and was completely different than what I was told.
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pamghatten
4 years ago
Sorry you are going through this. I bought a house with septic years ago, and started having issues. Called a company my neighbor recommended, not the original company that did the work, and they had to re-do some things that were wrong. But then I had no problems with it until I sold it 18 years later.

Can you speak to the owner of the septic company? What does your Realtor say about all this?

I don't think this is normal, I think someone should have told you what was wrong and what they were going to do to fix it before they came on your property.
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Castoff, Sounds like you have systems that are similar to Vermont's. We also have open and closed systems, distribution boxes, etc. The 2 systems with pumps that I described both had leaching areas remote from and higher than the tank and so had to be pumped. In this area if it is all clay soil, I can almost gurantee that a raised leaching area would be required..here they are called "mound systems." In my dealings (until new State laws were passed 3 or 4 yrs ago) each town or city had its own regulations. The smaller towns did nothing. They left it up to home owners and local contractors to design and build their own systems. In most of these cases they were rural communities and the landowners had many acres...the practice was to just build something big enough and to heck with any fancy design. The State of VT now has to issue permits for all designs. The trade off for this regulation is that they will now accept "modern" systems that allow systems in soils that would never work before. When a system is being designed a "perk test:" has to be done on the soil. A hole is dug with a back hoe and the engineer/designer establishes soil conditions at different levels. Then water is poured into the hole and a timing is done to determine how long it takes for the water to leach out. I can tell you that in the civilized areas here, the clay soild conditions that you describe, especially with seasonal high water, would never pass and would require a built up mound system I must confess that I haven't fooled with systems for about 8 years and don't know the specs on the new systems that are allowed or if the new tanks are 2 chambered. I know that many of the designers are requiring filters on the outgoing side of the tank. Possibly this serves the same purpose as the 2 chamber tank. Once a year, you pull the filter out of the inspection hole on the outgoing side and hose it off. I hope that the PO finds some solution. It would be too bad to find out that money had been spent on a design that doesn't work. If it only floods on a seasonal basis, then it does sound like a design problem. If that was the case and it wasn't too terrible, I would investigate anything that might lessen the water flow to the system.....low flow fixtures....toilets, shower heads, etc. I guess I'm trying to think of ways to save someone money, but this system could be beyond that. I don't know what part of Canada the PO is in. I owned property in rural Quebec in a small towwn. I can tell you that there was no regulation (20 yrs ago) over septic systems...at least no regulation that was enforced unless it was a newly constructed building. This town was small enough that the town clerk's office was in the living room of his house and was only open 2 nights per week:-)
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"What we figure is that the man who previously owned our house went crazy with a backhoe and now there is only a few inches of soil on top of the field in that area." If he drove a backhoe on the leach field when removing soil he may very well have crushed laterals in the field. Adding fill on top to restore the surface might help, but without a better diagnosis of what is really wrong you are just shooting in the dark. If there is a broken connection it needs to be repaired. If you have a "black 'puddle' in our front yard" it sounds like a completely failed system. Once solids move from the tank into the field the field is quickly ruined. The solids clog up the normal path for the water to move deeper into the earth. Start saving up for a large job, and hope the county does not condemn the field and make you move out of the house.
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rockypointdog
4 years ago
Wow, I’m sorry you are dealing with this. I know you asked for advice “aside from contacting a lawyer”, but you also indicated that you are almost ready to walk away from the whole mess. Please talk to a lawyer before you do that. I’m not sure what kind, but I would call a real estate lawyer or a contract lawyer first to see what they say. I also think I would reach out to a different septic company to have them come out. It will likely cost you money out of pocket to do so, but they could do a soil test and then you would have a better idea if the 17,000 gallons of water made a difference. Please don’t let the thought of spending the money deter you - it sounds like this home is what you were looking for, and you might still be able to get there. Focus on getting some more facts first, so that you can make a decision based on good advice - which I do not think you are getting from your current septic company.
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maifleur03
4 years ago
This will sound snarky but it is not. Since the house had flooded once it may flood again. Buy as much flood insurance as you can afford and hope the insurance company totals the property the next time.

Something that you can check but it might be easier to hire an attorney to do is to find out if the house is in an area that was on the Army Corp of Engineers listing of not being habitable. Sorry someone will know the proper term. If it is the title company, if used, should have discovered it but may not have. There are areas along the major rivers where the owners can still live in them at their peril but any houses can not be sold only the land. People still try to sell them so it is not an unknown happening.
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Mike Lebarr
Original Author
4 years ago
Thank you everyone for the input, At this point everyone is just pushing everything around and trying to just say " it is what it is" trying to put it behind them. Kind of like a band of " I didn't do it, it's not a big deal, It's okay from everyone, Or I'll ask." everyone is waiting to hear from the other person, etc.

As for walking away, I Absolutely will Contact a lawyer before doing that. I just fear the expense of it, and possible reverse outcome ( like if we had to pay for their fees) The whole thing seems like quite a few " situational" things happened right after another to let this occur. Within Eyeshot, I can see 7 other septic systems ( with houses of course) the close one's I spoke with haven't had an issue, One of them being my direct neighbor, probably 50 feet away, She hasn't had a problem in 20 years with a standard set-up.

I was fortunate enough to talk to one of the people working on it today, without the " boss man" here. He was polite, listened to what I had to say, and agreed that he will do his best to fix the " ruts" in the yard from the heavy machinery, as well as leveling it out in the back as best as he could. I brought the whole thing up again with him, and he said something like, " we'll, if you were selling a house you wouldn't want this to be done before you sold it either". Insinuating that it was purposely done the way it was, because we wouldn't have made the purchase.

The House is next to the river, but about a half-mile inward, with at least 3-4 acres between us and the river.

I Want to have facts, evidence, that kind of thing so moving forward, I don't just sound like a complainer. Two things that were not told to us, that I can prove 100% that the seller knew about, Even though his discloser stated " he did not live here long enough to know of any defects".

I 100% told everyone I could like 100 times about that 17,000 gallon water bill. It took less than two weeks for that much water to go out to the leach feild. It was designed no more than 400 gallons a day from what I understand, instead it was doing 1215 gallons a day roughly.

The giveaway to me, was the health inspector who did the test. His body language, facial expressions and overall attitude change towards me immediately after that, but that is nothing provable. not even the silence and staring at each other.

The best part, the way it's installed, this new system will NEVER be used. The new "pump tank" is about 1 foot higher than the existing bed inlet ( which is gravity fed), so its only purpose is to be used when the original overflows, like the health inspector claimed.

It definitely doesn't help being entirely inexperienced in EVERYTHING involving all of this. First home, first time ever using a contractor, etc. I'll reach out to me realtor again and see what she says, just all-in-all, not cool.
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remodeling1840
4 years ago
Reach out to the broker, the agent’s boss. It’s the broker’s license on the line if misrepresentation were made to you. The sellers of our house had to replace the entire septic system and it couldn’t be done until spring. We were shocked at the mess made in the process, but after grading and seeding the huge area of our yard by the septic company, our yard has recovered. It was unpleasant while it grew in, but we have a completely new system that should last for years. I am sorry your experience has been so disheartening, but after the yard is repaired and you are playing with those kids on your lawn, these memories will be behind you.
Mike Lebarr
Original Author
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
Thank you Remodeling1840.

The title company does happen to have the Escrow at the moment.

The issue isn't Exactly with the septic company though, It's mainly the breakdown in the communication, Sure, They showed a few things I didn't like ( like burying their trash in my yard) and having very poor communication, but at the end of the day, they did what they were paid to do. More than likely, They came here knowing not to speak to me. The seller has been harassing them for 2 months to get it done so he can get his money.

The agent, ( My agent) Is married to her Broker. She was very nice, and this would have been the 3rd house we tried to purchase Like papers signed, lenders found some reason or another to request some sort of repair that was just unheard of and the sellers refused. We tried 5 different lenders. Most of them involved expensive testing to verify the foundation,etc. when no apparent reason was present.

. It was always this or that with the home, that the seller would refuse to deal with that made us drop out. After 3 years, It was exhausting, So I think everyone involved at that point was just done with it, and ready to move on. We were.

The other agent, in my opinion, was "lacking". The whole firm she works for ( small company) has single-handed raised the prices in this area in my opinion. They work on 10% total commission, and generally only sell houses that now range from 250,000-1,000,000. Somehow, they have taken over the market over here and almost every listing is by them, except the houses under 100K. The listing agent treated everyone with disrespect and looked down on us as a whole, since, we aren't buying one of those expensive houses. What they do, Is they list houses methodically above the appraisal. Once it's all said and done, and the closing is set and the actual appraisal comes in, people are happy to pay the " max" or out of pocket for a lower, but still over appraisal price. Done over and over again, in a small area, prices skyrocket. This home was 130K, And just wasn't in her radar at all. She barely made it to closing to give us the keys.

What I mean by that, The listing agent didn't even know it had a septic system. She didn't know it flooded in 97. She didn't know much of anything, other than a picture of the home from the outside- and 2 sentences in the listing description. We were the one's that pointed out it had a septic system, from doing a property search with the state to see the property lines.

When it comes down to the break-down in communication, Everything goes through your realtor, then out to where it needs to go. I sounded like a broken record trying to tell EVERYONE of these discrepancies, the actual research, she was even here when we found the water on and the 17,000 gallon usage leading to this problem. I just don't know if she told anyone, she said she told the listing agent, who didn't seem to care. She's the one that said " hey, they are getting a new septic system, what is there to complain about" . I know the reaction I received from the health inspector and the septic company, pretty much confirmed they didn't know. Had that been said, and taken seriously, no one would be out anything but a retest .The $1,000 water bill had insurance to pay for " that type of error". The seller may have even walked away with $16,000 more in his pocket.

The property also has plenty of spots that would have never even been noticed if that were placed strategically, (the leech bed). So they loaded it up in the middle of the most used part of the yard, without so much as a head nod to it's location.

the work has been done for a few days, And I've calmed down a bit about the unprofessional-ism of the company, which puts my focus back on the people who should have been in communication with us the whole time. Those people, in my opinion, are the one's responsible.

I didn't get a new system as We were told, and in the escrow it says " replacement" not " added field".

no type of communication about what was needed to be done, or what, if any, options were available to us( like placement of the field, or paying out of our pocket on top of the original costs for a different set-up).

I don't really know how it works, But If I sold something to someone needing repair, I would 100% be telling them their options. Even after the sale. Given, it fit without the amount of the original estimate, and agreed upon repairs before closing. " Hey, so the health department came back with this, and this is what they said needed to be done, if you want to get a land survey and have it placed somewhere specifically, or discuss with the company any other options etc. And this is the plan of action as of now".

Which is what was originally portrayed to us. I'm still going back and reading all of the emails, and texts, and documents. None of it matches up to what has been done. Of course, we only speak to our realtor, so it's then deciphering who is at fault for those discrepancy's leading to us, which is just plain out finger pointing at that point.

At the end of the day, you are right. You know, People make mistakes, some people are scum. But If it devalues our home significantly, more than a couple thousand, I feel someone needs to take care of that, at the very least. Because in reality, the work was not disclosed correctly before or after closing, and after closing we should not be paying more than the appraisal under the conditions of the repair if they devalue the home.

I don't want this to bite me in the butt 20 years from now when we sell it, or move on in life. I hate to think we will just walk away when our time here is done " if it's not worth it" due to the valuation differences, or the "hard to sell" aspect due to its placement.

I know deep down, I spent over 7 years busting my a$$ to save up to purchase a home so we could just enjoy what time left we have with our kids. not to fight this. But, It's also a hard pill to swallow, knowing that you just got taken for, and all that hard work, at least in part, would have been for someone taking advantage of us. When I say hard work, I mean working 50-70 hours a week non-stop, away from my children, even through the holidays. It's not a comparison, i'm sure others work much harder for less, but in my eyes, My time away from my children is worth something. In those 7 years, I feel my body has aged at least 20, how do you just lay down and accept that?

I am definitely not a "professional" or have the slightest experience in any of this. But I did do all the research I could before closing. I'm tired to the core, So I'm not sure if it is worth fighting over. all of this is 100% new to me.

All I know is, There was a discrepancy ( two actually). One being this system, the other, the ( I can prove) previously known flood in 97 that wasn't disclosed because he signed a non-disclosure form stating " he didn't live here long enough to know of any pre-existing problems or issues). When I looked this up before, people said this doesn't mean anything, that he is still responsible for issues that may be there, if I can prove without a doubt were known.

The original owner ( he lived here for 20 years) stopped and talked to me. This guy ( a foot doctor) purchased it at a sheriffs sale, flipped it to us and lived here for 14 months while doing it. The original owner has no problem in saying it in court. he told the guy that this place was a lawsuit waiting to happen if he didn't disclose these serious defects. He said he was outraged that the "doctor" ignored him and told him to Buzz off, that he was going to sell it how he seen fit. So, he has made it a " personal" thing to make sure the buyer knows he was made aware of it if we wanted to sue over that issue as well.

It's just literally mind-boggling.
PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
4 years ago
Mike:

It's definitely lawyer time. Realtors have gargantuan obligations for disclosure these days. This could be resolved fairly quickly, depending on your lawyers rhetorical skills.
ncrealestateguy
4 years ago
It is hard to believe that there was no discussion on the details and specifics of what exactly the "repair" was going to be, prior to closing. This is probably going to be the first question any attorney will ask.
kathyg_in_mi
4 years ago
Hey, one year we had to put in a back up septic field when the original field "overflowed". Then about 3 years later sewers came down the road and because our property was on the road we had to hook up. Add an extra $20,000 for the hook up to the cost of the septic field! Life sucks sometimes.

We live on a lake now and quite a few septic fields are raised around here.
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homechef59
4 years ago
It's long past real estate attorney time. Write a check for an hours time. It will save you in the long run. Knowledge is power.

If it had been me, I would have thrown the septic company off the property until every detail had been discussed to my satisfaction. You didn't do that. You also didn't mention if the utility companies had been called out to mark utilities. If they weren't, the contractor was responsible. The damage is his to repair.

It looks as if this goes back to the inspection phase and the failure to turn off the water. Mr. Septic man may be at fault. So is Mr. County Inspector, but he will skate. This is why you need an attorney to make some phone calls. Mr. Septic man will need to fix his damage. It is possible that reinspection will reveal that the tank only needed dumping and all the rest of the new installation is bogus.

What do you do today? Immediately send an email to the closing attorney advising him that the installation is sub-standard and not satisfactory. Notify him that he should not disburse the escrow funds pending your meeting with an attorney. Then, meet with an attorney. Have the attorney talk to the closing attorney about the situation.

Further, don't fell bad about making enemies. Nobody but you and the attorney you hire is out to defend your interests. If the seller is pissed, he should have hired a competent septic installer. Tell him to pound sand until this is all straighten out to your satisfaction.
PRO
JudyG Designs
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
"When the septic was tested, I was told it needed replaced, and the estimate would be put into Escrow with our title company."

You are saying that the seller is responsible for installing the septic ; your final payment to seller will not be made until the septic is completed to code and your satisfaction.

Your title company is going to expect the seller to comply. If seller does not, he has a big adversary. If seller wants escrow money back, he has to act in accordance. Estimate is a guesstimate.
0
User
4 years ago
We had an issue with a new home and had to talk to a lawyer. We're not the most experienced in the bunch either, but the lawyer asked us the right questions, talked to the other party, and settled the issue. Totally worth it.
0

New house, Septic/leach Field Replacement placed in escrow whois wrong

remodeling1840

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New house, Septic/leach Field Replacement placed in escrow whois wrong

Comments (14)

Mike LebarrOriginal Author

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