DO not confuse Plane(flatness) with Level, you can indeed end up with a floor that meets plane, yet remains unlevel.. grinding and then patching is common.....at times it may look like a mine field of a mess :)

am I reading this right? I can feel a dip when I step here. now with my 3' level I can't get this reading, maybe since floating floor is accommodating the air space as the floor settles? to bad I didn't measure the actual cement before vinyl was installed. all i know is I feel a dip. Installer tried to say "what dip?" he said the 3/16" rule was over 10'. I still need to talk with owner who will come to collect money at end of job prob monday and need to know what to say as I'm worried he'll brush it off, too. I can live with the dip if it means tearing out panels will ruin the integrity but if it can cause probs later I will need to make sure I insist on them fixing this issue. thx!

also, what is the purpose is the 3/16 rule? what probs can it cause later? Is it worth pursuing so we don't have this dip?

The click locks will break over time with too much unflatness. You will have no warranty and no recourse if there is anything wrong with the flooring material and or install. You're basically on your own.

ugh. I thought the one thing we wouldn't have trouble with was the floors. I also notice that when I step on that area it moves. I'd think there should be no give or movement. Does anyone know a proper fix for this? flooring was installed in the whole house and baseboards will be finished tomorrow. would he take the flooring out in the kitchen area only or have to take flooring out in the whole house cuz the click locks...?

The way it seems to go I'm sure the guy will try to get out of it so I'm preparing for the worst. I plan on calling paramount to see if they can come out or/and give some advice but in the meantime I'm not sure if I should bring it up to the floor guy before they finish the job or at the end. we dont' really have a safe place for storage of the baseboards if they want to delay that but getting those installed and then having to tear them out of whole house after being caulked and all seems like a nightmare.

If, the floor is 3/16" out of tolerance with a 3 ft. level. It will be out of tolerance with a 10' straight edge. The floor needs to be removed and the subfloor needs to be addressed. You cannot do an injection repair with vinyl. At least I never had.

G & S Floor Service I can't understand the physics of the difference of a 3 ft level vs a 10' straight edge with the gap I am seeing in the area/spot where I am seeing a 4/16" gap so I wonder if I'm looking at this correctly. What do you mean by injection repair? Are you saying the flooring would have to be removed throughout the whole house or just a large area where they add cement to flatten the area? Have you had this happen before and had to have your guys tear out the floor? We're talking over 1300 sq ft for our whole house minus bathrooms. thanku so much for your responses! This is causing a lot of stress.

btw I only saw the floor being out of tolerance with the 10' straight edge, which is no longer at my house since all the flooring in the house has been laid. I used my 3' level to have something to be able to double check the prob. i wish I had known to check with the installer's straight edge throughout the whole house myself before we got too far into this but I had no idea. I imagine there are many homeowners with unflat subfloors not even knowing it until there is a problem. I watched some videos on how to take out and reinstall a plank and it ends up being glued back in. I can't imagine any floor guy will jump for joy about doing the right thing here, as it's sounding like a very large expensive job. All advice highly appreciated. do u think i'm reading that gap right with the pic I showed thx!!

The flooring on the area with the not properly flat floors needs to come out and the subfloor fixed. If they need to remove all 1300 sq ft that is what needs to come out. They need to be able to get to the entire area where the floor is not flat. And no the floor should 100% not move when and where you step.

unfortunately seems he built the floor up to high in one area right next to where the dip is. sounds like i should tell him sooner than later cuz if he puts baseboards in they might need to come out, too, or can they slide under the baseboards ok? My worry is having him walk out on the job and then we have nowhere to store baseboards. they are mdf, painted in the backyard and i don't want them to get wet. thx!

No, baseboards coming out as well. Best bet is to tell him asap, he will give you major league push back but this is your time to fight it or not, but the choice is yours.

ok, i'll send him a text in morn with the pic so i have it in writing at least. then i'll hope that parilament opens early enough in morn for me to have told him i have their manufacturers installation requirements. then i'll keep my fingers crossed that the flooring is not out of stock. How hard would u push if it were u?

I would not continue on the project until this issue is addressed. If necessary, the baseboard can be bundled and wrapped in plastic until installation.

Check the install instructions for subfloor prep. You may find that the greatest deviation permitted is 3/16 over 10 feet but there may also be another measurement over a shorter distance such as 1/8 in 6 feet. Insist that the installers follow manufacturer's requirements. Some installers will try to minimize your concerns and tell you all is well. It might be, until the warranty period is over and the floor fails after only a year or two.

I like to find a small piece of material 3/16 thick and use that with the straight edge. If the material slides under the straight edge at any point, the subfloor needs attention. Find a couple of humps and set the straight edge across them and see if there is an issue. The deviation allowed is overall, not 3/16 above and another 3/16 under the edge. Start in one corner and move the straight edge in an arc and see where the high spots and low spots are.

thanku Lyndee Lee, on Parliament's website there are no manufacturer's instructions that I've seen. I look under warranty and says floor should be installed by a certified installer they'll cover a certain amount of labor within the first 3 yrs. On back of sample board says floor should be installed on a level ground. the floor co should have a copy of the instructions that were possibly found in the box or on an agreement they must have with pariliament?

would it be safe to say that they could install the baseboards in the bedrooms? I wouldn't be happy if i had to have transitions in each room, either, which was a major reason i got vinyl vs laminate.

how stressful. this will slow down rest of job. we've been waiting for this to put in island on legs.

Laminate requires transitions and all pinch points if I am not mistaken. That means all door ways.

yes, i believe laminate does, but not vinyl, which is 1 reason why i got vinyl

i'm always trying to think of worst/best case scenario. hubby is upset that he thinks i always choose the most high maintanance products. i chose vinyl since we're in this remodel due to a flood. i've been told both from floor guys that often u can reclick the floors back in and that u can't reuse them so who cares if they are waterproof if u have a flood, but concerning having kids i thought it was better than laminate and wood and although it can scratch tile could break-and too hard on my feet.

worst case scenario if contractor doesn't fix this: we have to replace flooring down the road or have an ugly gap or buckle that could be filled in with something i'd think... best case scenario down the road if it buckles or cracks, replace the planks by gluing them to the adjacent planks, but subfloor issue would still need to be addressed. (I saw the replacement of planks thing on youtube when folks are replacing just one plank).

To be clear, 3/16" is 3/16" is 3/16". There is no difference between 3/16" over 3 feet or over 10 feet. it is STILL 3/16" of deflection. Of course over 10ft it is 'easier' for the vinyl to handle it. Over 3 feet it is VERY difficult for the vinyl to handle.

Flatness is about 'getting rid of waviness'. Getting the floor "level" is every inch is sitting at the same height (no wonkiness) when measured with a lazer level. Level takes HUGE amount of effort. Flatness is easier to achieve because it can have a bit of a slope to it.

You have WAVINESS. That's why you can feel the dip. That's why the floor moves when you step on it. You have a little roller coaster in front of your fridge. The guy who used the 10ft level didn't know what was being asked of him.

SJ McCarthy, that makes sense. supposively they install in multimillion dollar homes for the most part. that's either a line or others don't notice it-or something. they also do more wood than vinyl, so my guess is wood is much more forgiving.

glad i asked the guy to leave me a couple boxes. here's what it says on the back of the box:

1st under preparation it says new concrete needs to acclimate for 60 days but i'm not sure if the 15 x 15 or so feet of concrete that was added to the top of the existing slab counts in that sense. then it says:

"scrape, plane, or fill uneven boards, holes, or cracks using floor-leveling compound if sub-floor is uneven - over 1/8 in within a span of 4 ft."

Then under "installation" it says:

"use spacers along the wall to maintain an expansion space of 5/16 in - 3/18 in between the wall and flooring. " there is no type of physical spacer left there, so i'm not sure if he used one while working. ...

"note:

if the total length of installation area is over 33 ft, it must be left an expansion space of 5/16 in

-3/8 in and so on..

If the total width of installation area is over 26 ft, it must be left an expansion space of 5/16 in

-3/8 and so on.

I don't think that part is concerning the dip, though. for the dip, 1/8" within 4 ft would mean there are prob other areas of the floor that wouldn't be up to par, am I right? 4/16= 1/4" right? that would mean we're 2 xs the allowance. that's not a lot of allowance! 2/16, wouldn't it be?!

can anyone verify I am reading the measurement correct? I call that 4/16 gap. i had someone else look at it and they say it's 3/16 but I think 4/16. even with that, floor moves but this is the one thing I have to go by in the contract.

Oh dear. No expansion gap at the walls? Installation error (guy did it wrong). No transition strips at the doorways? Installation error (guy did it wrong). Dips ON TOP of the floor that you can MEASURE? Oh dear. That means the issues UNDERNEATH are BIGGER than what you are measuring. Installation ERROR (guy didn't do it right)!

All of these point to NO WARRANTY. Do NOT let the room get finished. Call the GC for Monday and have him/her come in a LOOK at the INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS (if you have a SPOKEN language barrier you can almost BET the installer didn't read the instructions!!!!).

All of this points to 'installer error' and is enough for you to get a new floor laid...on the GC's dime.

And yes...you have measured TWICE the allowance. That's too much. It must be fixed. You paid for it...it must be fixed.

Poured concrete cures slow. Self-Leveling Compound cures much faster. It's hard to say if it was allowed to cure or not.

thx. i don't believe transition strips are required at the doorways and I'm not saying there's no gap at the walls. There is a gap at the wall, just no physical barrier. I'm not sure if they measured or used an extension barrier or not. I haven't measured the gap either. I guess I should. :( There is no GC dealing with the floor. I'm the GC dealing with the floor. The floor company themself is the one that needs to fix on their dime. I've paid them $6k+ and owe about $5k which he expected to get tomorrow at completion of job.

Good point about the errors on top of the flooring pointing to bigger issues under the flooring. That's scary. When I tell him and I assume he will come tomorrow to check, I wonder how visible the prob/dip will be with the 10' straight edge from the floor settling/lifting...? I might have to stand on the area to push it down to show the owner of the company.

I guess with me being the GC I should've measured for dips before floor went in but I've been told to let the guys do their jobs as I get involved too much, but I think it's been proven when I get more involved early it's better in the long run. I didn't know to do so until now and am tired of learning how to do these guy's jobs for them and trusted this guy but this is what I didn't realize getting into it. I thought being a GC was more about finding good people and scheduling them, not knowing how to do their job. Now I know, a few trade mess ups into the job. :(

also, is it a big deal if the floor makes a bit of a noise in certain spots? should i cal lthat settling or "unsettlling" (due to bad installation)? i wouldn't call it a creak as much as a cllick. Not sure how to describe it, but I'd say it's due to a small amount of movement would be my guess? Maybe that's not a telltale sign of where I should be putting blue tape, though?

"but I'd say it's due to a small amount of movement would be my guess?"

Your floor needs to come up , more than likely all of it. If for nothing more than for the installer to prove that the floor is truly flat. Is he a certified installer for this product? Is he a flooring installer at all?

after reading the warranty I looked on his website and didn't see this floor listed but he said he sells that floor when I wanted to purchase it from him. He is a floor installer but his specialty is hardwood, although he also sells vinyl and installs. I was referred by a designer that I didn't end up using for my project but liked the guy immediately. He seemed very thorough and communicative. He seemed as though he was going to take his time and on his website talks about his "conceirge service" blah blah. he has some good ratings here and yelp, BBB... With so many folks I had to hire I missed it on this one with checking for a license and when I got the bid I noticed he wasn't licensed but neither was the other company I ended up getting the floor sample from and they and other floor companies didn't impress me like he did. He was rather prompt, took time to explain. the owner is not the installer, though. the installer told me he's worked for owner 5 yrs. The detail work looks good accept I was bothered by one white knot after they laid a handful of rows of flooring and told him I'd like a few extras put in closets or under where furniture would be and he chose to mostly not use them at all, cut them out of the planks while telling me he'd still utilize and not waste planks. Owner's wife just had a baby so he was not on the job every other day like he'd normally be, came on the 2d day and it's a 5 day job. they hadn't put down cement yet. Owner told me i was in good hands. good talker, very confident. installer told me they dont' usually do small homes like mine, usually 5k sq ft homes but I think they're usually hardwood.

I'm up all night on this one. Got 3 hrs sleep. I can't imagine anyone easily being willing to pull up whole floor. I can't imagine getting a hold of the owner before the worker is ready to start. I'm going to tell the installer to start baseboards in bedrooms and tell him we're still concerned about this problem that he brushed off.

i'm again reviewing owner's website, amazing reviews, BBB accredited, several times on tv (although that's prob a paid ad type thing on a morning type show). Professional website. I'm blown away at my bad stream of luck during reno or maybe this isn't going to need a whole tear out. we'll see what he'll say...

OK...I'm worried about the lack of transition strips. And here's why. You mention the 'maximum run' of 33ft. That's nothing special. I mean it. A regular laminate floor (on fibre board = lots of movement throughout the year) allows 33ft (or 32ft or 34ft....you get the idea). The cork floating floors I used to sell (known to be the MOST DYNAMIC FLOATING FLOORS on the market = 1/2" gap at all walls AND MUST HAVE transition strips) had a maximum run of 32ft.

Yep. Your vinyl has the same limitation as a cork floating floor (famous for big movement). These limits are not difficult to 'over come'. I can guarantee the transition strips are needed.

The vinyl floors that do NOT need transition strips = maximum run of 50-60 linear feet! That is CorTec range. Your floor isn't going to allow install without transitions.

If you take a piece of string and run it through the LONGEST CONTINUOUS RUN of flooring you will find you are WELL past the 33 linear feet. You will find the furthest bedroom and tape the string to the farthest wall. Then you and the ball of string will walk your way all the way to the furthest corner of the furthest wall of the furthest room (that the vinyl runs continuously through).

Now measure that very large piece of string. Is it 30ft or is it 60 ft? If it is past 33 linear feet you will need to have the flooring installer drop in transition strips in each doorway.

Sorry but this is going to be a battle. And to be clear, if you purchased the floor AND the installation from the same place (one stop shop) then the GC is the store.