Fibrex, (60% PVC) is over hyped and over priced composite deck material. Used since the mid 1990's If hasn't been around long enough to prove it will outlast Vinyl (100% PVC). And if Andersen thinks Fibrex is so great why do they still sell 100's of thousands of Vinyl windows and why only a 10 year warranty on the Fibrex?

Fiberglass, can't comment on windows but I've seen 100's of complaints about fiberglass doors facing south and west that have warped from the heat. And then I think about the fiberglass toppers and boats that have faded and look all chalky after sitting in the sun for 20+ years. Is the color in the fiberglass or is it like a glass coat? I'd say stay away from Fiberglass and go with Fibrex if you want to just spend more money on windows.

Go with Vinyl and focus on performance, Marvin and Andersen are both good windows but your biggest worry should be the installer of the windows. A bad installer can make the best window worthless.

For the record I installed all new Andersen 400 series casement windows (not renewal) in my house during my remodel in 2006 and the vinyl is as good as the day I installed them and have no complaints. I wish I could say the same about the vinyl siding.

Vinyl window frames will expand and contract more than fiberglass and glass. Just Physics. The differences lead to seal failure and the need to be replaced after a few years. Fiberglass frames are stronger than vinyl and that strength means thinner frames and more glass when compared to vinyl for an opening size.

Elevate are Integrity. They are primarily Ultrex framed with pine wood framing/cladding on the interior. Essential are Integrity all Ultrex. The exterior finish is long lasting on both.

From Marvin-

Exterior Color Options

A strong alternative to vinyl, our Ultrex® pultruded fiberglass exterior finish is applied through a patented process to provide a superior, consistent finish. The American Architectural Manufacturers Association (AAMA) awards certifications to materials that pass numerous, rigorous tests. These tests simulate the harsh conditions that a finish will encounter throughout the life of the window or door. Passing these specification tests and achieving AAMA 624 verification gives independent verification that the Ultrex finish is best in class among fiberglass products.

Built for durability and low-maintenance, our Ultrex finish is 3x thicker than competitive finishes, with a smooth consistency and strong finish that resists fading, chalking, peeling and cracking, even in the darkest colors. If a design change calls for a new color down the road, our material can be painted without voiding our warranty. Six colors are available in neutral and dark tones.

You have exterior color choices other than white.

"can't comment on windows but I've seen 100's of complaints about fiberglass doors facing south and west that have warped from the heat."

kevin9408, lets see these complaints as I have been in the window and door business 35 years and have not heard one complaint about this happening, even from box store garbage.

"Vinyl window frames will expand and contract more than fiberglass and glass. Just Physics. The differences lead to seal failure and the need to be replaced after a few years."

dan1888 you keep stating this as fact but please show us the data that this is true? I am the first to admit I am not a huge vinyl fan but this is pure hogwash, not physics at all.

Dang it! So all those vinyl windows we have installed for the last 20 years are going to start failing...?

Dang it! So all those vinyl windows we have installed for the last 20 years are going to start failing...?

As long as they had a good installer they will last, won't crack in the corners or leak. In fact when that house get's hit by tornado and walls are down these windows will still stand.... in the air as long as the vinyl had a good installer.

People buying high end windows are crazy. All you need is vinyl and a good installer.

PVC is only as good as the plasticizers used to make it so its pointless to generalize about its longevity. The good stuff allows the PVC to remain flexible longer but eventually extruded PVC will become brittle and crack. I'm not saying PVC windows won't last for 20+ years but my windows were installed in 1891. Yes, they're a little drafty, thermally inefficient and the combination storm windows are a pain but they still work.

I can relate to many on this forum seeking advice. Buying double hung vinyl windows is very confusing. For most of us, it's a once in a lifetime purchase.

For example, I am looking to buy 25 windows and have vinyl siding installed. Our house is 45 years old with the original Andersen windows.

I've read here that Okna, Soft-Lite, Sunrise, Polaris, Kensington...are all top notch windows. Then I read online that Kensington has gone bankrupt more than once, stiffing homeowners of warranties. The local Kensington dealer in Western Massachusetts (close to the New York border) himself has gone bankrupt at least once, so I cannot buy Kensington.

Harvey bought Soft-lite in 2016, and the Harvey line isn't highly regarded here.

The only Okna dealer is 60 miles away. When I asked them for a ballpark estimate to install vinyl siding on a 2450 sq. ft. colonial house, they said could be $35,000-$70,000!!!

I didn't Dare ask them about windows! Highway robbery (5 other estimates were all $20,000-$26,000)!

I really like the Simonton 5500 guy who does vinyl siding and windows. In fact, I may hire him to do the siding, but Simonton 5500's aren't held in high regard on this forum.

The Sunrise windows around here are sold by a company called Thermoexpert. Sunrise makes their windows, no product line name. When I pressed them for more details, they called Sunrise and I talked to their rep. Their Sunrise are built to specs of the Sunrise Vanguard.

They are telling me that replacement windows are the best way to go. Their price:

24 double hung and 1 twin casement window installed and capped $24,200.

Woodgrain interior with matching grids add'l $2600,

Triple pane glass with Argon add'l $1950.

Their installers are certified installers. The weird thing about them is they have been in business here for 30+ years, but I can only find five online reviews about them. The business owner said that they do 7 million dollars of business a year, including a lot of commercial windows in the other end of the state, in the Boston area.

Local carpenters that I trust like Andersens, Marvins, National Destiny, Ellison 1300, Viwinco windows. Another has installed Hurd windows.

My goal was to have energy efficient windows that will tilt in, maintenace free, durable to last 30 years, at a reasonable price.

I'm starting to wonder if I need to lower my standards and buy a very good window instead.

As long as they had a good installer they will last, won't crack in the corners or leak. In fact when that house get's hit by tornado and walls are down these windows will still stand.... in the air as long as the vinyl had a good installer.

say what?!?!?

Maybe there are good vinyl frame windows. But how can you tell? And who wants to chance it. Maybe a builder choosing the windows has researched the quality of the vinyl products and you can rely on him to provide quality for this one time purchase. Who knows? He may go for the lower cost. At least there's no question on glass amount. Vinyl is always less. Easy to see.

But previously you state it as fact. Where is your backup or is this just your opinion? Picking windows based solely on price is a complete crap shoot. Now you want to throw that in their as justification for your argument. Again where is your backup or is this just your opinion?

Here's some info comparing vinyl and fiberglass Here.

Low Thermal Expansion & Contraction

Thermal Expansion/Contraction is bad for windows and is what causes them to warp in the heat and cold. PVC (Vinyl) framing warps over 8 times more than our pultruded fiberglass framing. Moreover, our fiberglass framing moves at a rate that is almost identical to the sealed glass unit it contains.

That is a fiberglass companies ad slick. How about an independent source?

A bar graph without any values....always a trustworthy source.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html

Spend a little time researching Fiberglass door problems millworkman. I won't list them for you because I'm not your mother, but the horror stories are easy to find just using the internet . The internet has hundreds of forums with people complaining about their WARPED fiberglass doors.

And then there are countless sites with tips on how to keep fiberglass doors from warping, like NOT installing doors that directly face harsh southern or western sun exposures, cleaning and protecting the doors from the elements, ect. Why would they even care if they don't warp.

Or the manufacturer's warranty that covers service or replacement related to warping issues, "Doors will not warp" they say, but if it does we have a Warranty on it for X number of years, (fill in the X), an oxymoron by any standards. How about warranted for life if it won't warp.

35 years in the business and you've never heard of a warped door questions your expertise on the subject with suspect.

I wonder what the maintenance requirements are for those fiberglass framed windows, or what those "will not harp" fiberglass windows have for a warranty against warping. Will they cover the labor to replace them if they do warp? I said I can't comment on fiberglass windows but because of my due diligence I can with confidence comment of the doors.

I have a new fiberglass door I will install later this summer, I know It may warp just by the complaints posted on the company website reviews, I know it will need maintenance and protection and also know I wouldn't pay $1500 for the door. I didn't, only $200 because of the give away clearance price, but will deal with the loss if it warps. But $14.000 for fiberglass windows plus re installment costs without doing any due diligence, I give them a big HELL NO!

Any one remember all those Marven widows that rotted because of the defective wood preservative. they claimed would last for ever? They are still rotting.

"Buyer beware", and with the internet there is NO reason someone should not know the risks of any product or buy into unproven claims. Manufacturer Hype is no better than a info-commercial meant for suckers.

>>As long as they had a good installer they will last, won't crack in the corners or leak. In fact

>>when that house get's hit by tornado and walls are down these windows will still stand.... in the

>> air as long as the vinyl had a good installer.

>say what?!?!?

Should of had sarcasm sign.

Installed plenty of vinyl myself, purchased houses with em, installed by others. None of them lasted or will last. Don't care about what genius installed them. All will fail.

We chose our windows back when they were Integrity (before they changed the names to elevate/essential), and there was no price difference between the wood-ultrex and all-ultrex for us. We chose the all-ultrex after visiting a showroom because I found the profile to be a little slimmer, which I liked for our aesthetic. Our contractor also gave it a slight edge in durability, since there will be cats hanging on the jamb extensions. Even after we chose all-ultrex, there was such a backlog they asked if we wanted to switch to wood-ultrex to speed up their arrival. We stuck with our original choice, and I’m very happy with the look (not in the house yet though, so can’t speak to performance). Happy to post some pics if it would help! Ultimately, I’d go with your preferred look and it sounds like that’s the elevate.

>>As long as they had a good installer they will last, won't crack in the corners or leak. In fact

>>when that house get's hit by tornado and walls are down these windows will still stand.... in the

>> air as long as the vinyl had a good installer.

>say what?!?!?

Should of had sarcasm sign.

Installed plenty of vinyl myself, purchased houses with em, installed by others. None of them lasted or will last. Don't care about what genius installed them. All will fail.

I kinda thought your original comment was meant as sarcasm, but the way you phrased the whole thing made me wonder.....so I asked

Have to say that your follow up comment doesn't exactly express a deep fount of wisdom either. Is it also meant as sarcasm?

Here's the interior and exterior color options for Marvin windows Elevate and Essential along with the higher end lines. Here.

From the Marvin website on fiberglass expansion and contraction-

"Ultrex® pultruded fiberglass, a material Marvin created over 20 years ago, was one of the first premium composite materials on the market. With its very low conductivity, fiberglass is one of the best insulators among window-frame materials. It shrinks and expands at the same rate as glass, making its air-seals as durable as the rest of the unit, and its long-term stability also ensures that fiberglass windows will operate like new for decades to come." . . .no vinyl window manufacturer says anything like this.

Why do you keep quoting the marketing materials from a given manufacturer's website? I am guessing you think that people can't read it for themselves?

For the record, I think you will note that most of the contractors that recommend a good vinyl product on here, also recommend that Marvin Elevate product line. That all said, fiberglass DOES NOT expand or contract at the same rate that glass does. That is simply not true.

You know what is also true...that glass doesn't expand and contract at the same rate as steel, wood, concrete, or any of the commonplace building materials.

When you see those skyscrapers that are curtain wall glazing (i.e. massive sheets of glass), do you think that those sections of glass are growing or contracting as the same linear rate (or total) as the frames (aluminum or steel) around them? The answer is clearly and resoundingly...NO. If that is the case, how is it that all those windows haven't failed?

The simple truth, although rarely aligning with marketing spin...definitely not in this case, is that windows are designed to accommodate just this type of expansion and contraction. Its why the windows are glazed into the frames via flexible mediums (glazing compound, tapes, adhesive, wet glazings, etc). This is known and has been known since folks have been making windows. The same goes for operable windows meeting fixed sections of the frame and weatherstripping.

If fiberglass were such a superior material, why are the vast majority of higher end performance windows made of UPVC?

The fiberglass clad wood Elevate price is a bargain and the window construction is superior to the competition. I would buy them but whatever you choose, add an Azek 6930 (or equal) "Historic Sill" for better appearance and water infiltration resistance.

I googled the Azek sill and found my sketch from many years ago.

This detail allows the jamb trim to rest on the sill and the sill to be continuous below paired windows, like windows were built for centuries before the window manufacturers limited the projection of the sill nose to the plane of the frame/jamb trim for manufacturing and packaging efficiencies not weather resistance or appearance.

Let's see. How about this for a point of reference.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html (linear coefficient of expansion of certain materials):

• Glass = 9.0
• Fiberglass (polyester based) = 25
• Fiberglass (epoxy based) = 36
• Aluminum = 21 - 24
• Steel = 10.8 - 12.5
• PVC = 54 - 110 (UPVC, un-plasticized PVC, will have an expansion rate closer to the lower end of the spectrum)
• Wood = 3 - 30

So...is 25 - 36 the same as 9?

I think we can use this reference for plate glass at 9 and PVC at 54-110. We need more info from Marvin about their statement about the expansion of Ultrex. They probably have a Tech Support group I can call.

I tried to use 2 PVC storage bins that had been outside for some years over 5 yesterday. With dirt in them they cracked and failed immediately. Trashed. So the expansion problem is 1 factor. The failure of the materials strength over time is another.

If you can get results for a specific UPCV named product you know of, well that would be helpful for comparison. Right now its vaporware.

https://www.uni-bell.org/Portals/0/ResourceFile/pvc_vs_fiberglass_frp_sewer_pipe11.pdf

It is pointless to make these type of comparisons . Fiberglass is a just a fiber reinforced plastic Using glass fiber. I can find or make arguments to support either claim but I think it’s best to use the data on 2 products and not there base material.

Homeowners are seeking credible information regarding windows which is rather difficult given the sheer quantity of choices between materials, fabrication types, manufacturers with their claims of superiority in product offerings and so many negative over positive reviews. I am appreciative for the professionals that provide their opinions and experiences here as those thoughts are founded in application.

The reality is that most if not all goods sold today are meant to be replaced sooner than later by design particularly at the consumer and/or residential level of the market. Then when you add the cost to renovate and replace, the decision becomes dicer since there are so many choices that are meant to be replaced before you are ready to do so. We have accepted it with our cars, then our computers and phones, why not windows?

So the consumer is left with two options, by a well-built basic window without any aesthetic attributes (function over form) that meets their immediate needs and quest to have longevity and durability or by an 'upgraded' window that has aesthetics (form over function) at a greater incremental cost that is built for appearances at the sake of longevity and durability.

Windows at a similar price point have the same common denominator of the availability in materials and labor for both fabrication and then later at installation. Upgraded is a marketing ploy. It really has nothing to do with quality and all to do with perceptions generated to the end-user. So consumer, choose between form or function because unless you have deep pockets, it will be near impossible to have both form and function in the same window product at a price point that you can afford for your house.

What does any one want in a window? One that opens when you want it open for ventilation or improved view, one that does not leak water or air when it is in the closed position and one that does not leak around its assembly because it was installed properly and squared....all the rest is about appearance. The choice can be that easy.

Determine your priority, form or function, and then decide how much you want to spend for that preference. Use third-party sources to determine quality, read warranties to ascertain if the manufacturer has little, some or more confidence in the window's performance over time, and move forward. More people bitch and moan when there is a problem but most do not applaud a product when it performs well so 'the reviews' on any product and/or service will be skewed to the negative. They are unreliable. You will not find what you are looking for in reviews really AKA complaints.

@dan1888

So let me get this straight...you say (in your previous post):

• You've got worthless words by an unknown with no real examples to create a foundation for your worthless words. How about putting a little effort into backing your position.

And your response is to post an anecdotal story about some PVC storage bins? Just so I am getting this straight.

Personal experience. . . .you understand how that counts compared to words with no basis.

As compared to your personal experience with a storage bin. So I guess 20 years of working with these materials and supplying actual data points is no basis then. If only I could reference some anecdotal experience with a material that was in a completely different class and application where that material did poorly.

I got it. Those molded covers for the sprinklers boxes are fiberglass and the one at my house has cracked. Clearly it should not be used for a window material.

Actually, there is some rotted trim on the house as well so we shouldn't use wood either.

My last option was aluminum, but there was a dent in the soda can in the recycling bin so that's probably off the list of comparisons too.

My point is not be inflammatory here, but do you realize how silly this sounds now?

My background is in manufacturing engineering. I do not understand these debates. Plastic not equal plastic and vinyl is not the same as other vinyl, fiberglass reinforced vs .... The issue there that manufactures make it inappropriately: to thin, that will get warped, brittle... Because they want a replacement revenue.

There are giant economic losses and waste on the consumer because manufactures make intentionally produce a disposable products with very thin frame. I do not have a clue what "fiberglass" window really is? When I designed a product I do not specify "fiberglass". I spec 12% CRF. And anyone who states it is still a plastic: Why don't you have your basement built without any steel reinforcement... After all it is just a concrete.

What I do not understand is that the difference in material between junk PVC frame and good fiberglass is may be $10 - $20? So why do I have to spend extra $600?

As an engineer I assume you have looked at the performance numbers that windows are engineered to?

I have been following the discussions on windows as am trying to decide on replacement windows for 38 windows in a home in Central Texas. Have looked at Pella Impervia and Lifestyle through the direct corporate where they also install; like the style of the Lifestyle (no pun intended) but not the price. Been told to stay away from vinyl due to heat issues in the summer and look at fiberglass instead. Contractor pushing Lincoln but has also suggested Marvin or Andersen. Would love to get some feedback from others on this. It is a big purchase as have 38 windows. Thank you.

@toddinmn

> As an engineer I assume you have looked at the performance numbers that windows are engineered to?

Let's see uses 12% crosslinked carbon reinforced fiber polyacrylonitrile (PAN), hydrophobes, with tensile properties as following... Designed with tolerance of ... And accommodate expansions and contraction .. mm. Axial strength...

Wait did I miss some marketing materials... because what I have, has non of that.

I think you are referring to the marketed materials. The numbers that all window manufacturers are required to meet are performance grade or design pressure. The test for these numbers are done by independent laboratories and are industry standards.You can have carbon fiber or Titanium windows if you like but in the end they get tested the same. In the end they get tested as a complete unit and are not based upon the parts. I understand where you coming from but you are leaving out some of the most important details and if you are an engineer I can’t see how you over look this. I doubt you even know PG or DP is without googling it.

KR, anything Pella, Lifestyle, and Leaky Lincolns would never be mistaken as a quality window. In Tx you want want to look into Don Young in addition to thinking about Marvin fiberglass.

http://search.nfrc.org/search/cpd/cpd_search_default_ByMfr.aspx?SearchOption=M

This is a link to the National Fenestration Rating Council Directory. Search by manufacturer or window type to get performance rating numbers. Nothing on this site about how they last.

The NFRC website provides information on the thermal performance only and not the structural performance of Design Pressure (DP) and Performance Grade (PG) which is located on this website for a handful of window companies: http://www.wdma.amscert.comt

That is great but if some one is going to disregard this information it is pointless. None the less I think your post is great and if an engineer wants to disregard the engineered specifications of a window that’s on them.

You are obviously someone who is selling a windows and well uneducated. We learn and study materials and different manufacturing techniques. Not a window manufacturing application of these techniques [ojt]. The design pressure reflects a leakage at the time of manufacturing, you can argues that this number represent a quality of construction. I am not convinced. And I googled that Performance Classes were added to address some other issues. In the end a child can understand if you take two drills: Ryobi vs Milwaukee: Ryobi uses ABC green plastic with rubber overmold and a Milwaukee tool uses fiber reinforced casing with 10% crosslinked fiber. Ryobi uses spring PCB button and Milwaukee uses really nice trigger button by third party. Ryobi uses chinese induction motor and Milwaukee uses known Japanese brand. Ryobi smart box overpower the motor because it can take short term abuse... and let's say Milwaukee smart box properly powers it up and discharges the motor as soon as you release the trigger.

As far as performance the RPMs are the same but these two are very different categories of tools. I like Ryobi.. but I also know I am buying throw-away tool. Yeah with time the trigger will fail, this motor will burn out, same motor will overheat and abc is not good: it will melt and deform. That overmold rubber .. is not good long term. But I can change a Ryobi drill. Hard to do with windows set in a brick wall. How is DP going to help me.

BTW titanium reinforcement vs carbon.... In the end, they do the same thing. I can design a product to last using either reinforcement. IMHO the windows manufactures should be required to disclose more than DP and PG. Same with this wonderful Andersen FYBEREX product. They should be required to disclose real performance vs fiberglass not the b.s 10x stronger than some <unknown> plastic. And if my profession was not sent to china I could have giving you these numbers.

https://www.andersenwindows.com/-/media/aw/files/technical-docs/performance/performance-windows-patiodoors-performancegrade-airInfiltration-soundtransmissionratings--a-series-complementarycas.pdf

as you can see or choose to ignore performance grade is a little more complicated and a bit more than air leakage. You could say these numbers are meaningless and are going to get worse after installed but of course we know you don’t know that. The one thing that might make sense is these numbers are not going to get better.

It sounds like you want to test windows in every way they were not designed for and compare them to unrelated things.

>You could say these numbers are meaningless and are going to get worse after installed but of course we know you don’t know that.

Unlike the concrete that get's harder as time passes.... Vinyl Windows do not get better.

You do not know what you posting.

Perhaps not, but as we know we can use the best material in the world and if not engineered properly or quality control standards adhered to you can a product that is subpar in performance. Have you had any experience with the higher quality vinyl windows, ones that have higher PG ratings, better air infiltration ratings better U-Value ratings? All these would have far better numbers than the Marvin unless you want to use there numbers that are using tests that are irrelevant .

Can anyone show me a window that does get better over time and life cycle?

I heard that fiberglass windows increase in strength and tolerances tighten up to just the right amount as time goes on. They are also so strong you do not even need headers

What are everyone's thought on Sunrise (vinyl) windows for a house that currently has vinyl windows (some local manufacturer from 22 years ago no longer in existence) and for which the sale of the home (~$600K) would not recoup spending the $$ on wood (note I do have an Anderson Frenchwood sliding and Marvin awning kitchen window - love both).

Which model Sunrise windows are you looking at? Also, what state is the house located in?

Sunrise is generally a well regarded product. I do recommend that you get the unit with the reinforcement as they seems to do better (in the case of Sunrise) with the reinforcement vs. without.

Fiberglass reinforcements?

This is in IL. I believe they are the standard windows but I got upgrades including reinforcement if I recall. I can check the order.

Thanks!