Thank you, Annie.

Thank you Annie and Lucille!

Annie. NYC hospitals were always working at max census. It takes very little to overwhelm them. Yes they brought in trucks, and alternative treatment areas, did have to use them? I did read they use one navel ship for a short time.

Just because NYC was for a short time overwhelmed, should not dictate for everywhere in the US.

Yes thank you Annie! Well put.

The Javits Center treated over 1,000 patients, the USNS Comfort treated 182, and the Central Park field hospital set up by Samaritan's Purse treated over 300.

Part of being a 'grown up' is mastering your emotions and looking at issues with logic and compassion. For most of the USA, our various lockdowns bought us time to figure out what to do next. Now we are 8 weeks into this thing ... so what IS the way forward? What works best for ALL of us? I'm not overly concerned about the middle and upper classes of our society, we/they will be okay. It's people who really *are* on the brink of not having food or shelter, or who have *no choice* but to put their health in jeopardy performing a low-level job most native-born Americans wouldn't take. How long can our small local efforts to support such neighbors be effective?

eta: I'm thankful Virginia locked down when it did -- you only get one chance to get ahead of this thing. But I do think that it's time to start carefully opening up again, keeping a close eye on the metrics pertaining to infections, hospital capacity, testing/tracing capability, etc. Ready to lock down specific regions as needed.

The flu in '68-'69 took 1.1 million lives but that was over the course of two years. So far, in only a few months, we are 1/3 the way there with over 300,000 deaths worldwide.

And the world population has more than doubled since 1968 (3.5 billion) vs 2020 (7.8 billion). Adjusted for inflation, those 1.1 million 1968 deaths would equate to more than 2.2 million deaths in 2020 w/o any accounting for increased population density. To get a more accurate picture, keep in mind that a sizeable % of Covid deaths are occurring in long term residential care settings where age & population density are factors. Someone would need to ferret out how that compares to 1968.

ETA--It would also be interesting to compare the # of international air passengers in 1968 vs 2020. I have no doubt that 2020 globe trotting #'s have greatly accelerated the spread of the virus vs 1968. IOW's, I would expect that Covid19 has spread much more quickly & will peak much sooner and possibly have a shorter duration than the Hong Kong Flu did.

Thank you JudyGood, whistleb and michael!

ci-lantro, the big difference too is that in 68-69 we did not lock down vs. now we are and we are still having rapid disease acquisition and high death rates.
As states are lifting their lockdowns -- even though *none* of them meet the administrations' criteria for doing so -- we can expect disease acquisition rates to rise again, and rapidly as this thing moves geometrically, not linearly.

What I see here is we have two groups:

One group wants to minimize deaths (protect those at risk) and keep the economy running (allow those that want to work to do so) This group is looking at the big picture and has compassion for others.

One group wants zero Covid deaths (all people on complete lockdown) and tank the economy (expects the government to support all those without jobs) This group is focused on self and doesn't care about others suffering.

This is a pandemic, yes, people will die either from the disease or from as fallout from lockdown.

Raye Smith, the point is by not locking down, you aren't minimizing deaths but maximizing them. By locking down, you are reducing the size of the economy but you aren't tanking it....there are still many people employed at home and many more still working in essential businesses. There are people with income support through unemployment insurance and the stimulus package and people who are on fixed incomes whose are still able to spend. Moreover, if as we've seen happen at the meatpacking plants, you allow the disease to run rampant, you will necessarily shut down anyway as there will be too few healthy employees to run the business. For example, as of May 4, Smithfield in Sioux Falls said they had 853 infections from among 3,100 workers. (I don't believe they're releasing the numbers any more.)

The point of the lock down is to slow the spread of the disease so hospitals are not overwhelmed, give time to manufacturers to ramp up production of things like PPE and testing swabs and re-agents to meet the new demand, and hopefully prevent the disease from spreading and killing more people before we can get a workable vaccine/treatment/cure out. That's how you save lives...not by sickening and killing off large swaths of the population.

And I reject the notion that those in support of the lockdown ... which includes the majority of Americans, dem, gop and independents ... don't care about peoples' suffering. Rather I think it's understanding that a short-term disruption will cause far less pain, suffering and loss of life in the long run than the alternative.

People seem to be only looking at the number of deaths and not looking at the difference between those that were bad enough to need treatment, the number of dead, and the number of recovered. There is a large number that are still under treatment. Many of that large number may never work again or be what they consider productive members of society. I have seen comments that no treatment should be given and just allow the body to heal itself. I have found it interesting when those that have voiced that idea have a friend or family member that has the virus how quickly they change their mind.

The next six weeks will show how infectious the disease actually is with all the people deciding their rights will protect them from disease. It will probably take another two months after that for the majority of the infected to either recover or die. Then the jobs of those who have died will reduce the unemployment numbers but at a much lower income rate. The lower income rate happens every time there have been mass reductions of employment followed by rehiring except during the plague years of the middle ages when there were too few people to fill any jobs.

There's lots of room for us in the middle. Stating complicated issues in "black/white", "us or them", "good vs evil" terms is too simplistic for today's reality.

ci-lantro, the big difference too is that in 68-69 we did not lock down vs. now we are and we are still having rapid disease acquisition and high death rates.

Increased mobility today. Airline passengers more than doubled between just 2004 and 2018. I can't imagine what the increase has been between 1968 and the start of this epidemic/ pandemic. So the Covid seeds has been spread further & at a greatly accelerated rate compared to 1968.

I'm also going to speculate that air travel is more affordable today for a wider economic spectrum than in 1968. Obviously the % increase in the number of air passengers per year has outstripped population growth.

Other factors like % of meals eaten outside the home then vs now. So, in 1968 we did live in some sort of 'lockdown' compared to a 2019 lifestyle.

I am SO tired of this endless and pointless debate!! It is like beating one's head against the wall.......you can keep on doing it until you knock yourself out but it's not going to change the outcome. Just as those who think they know more about this situation than the sharpest medical and scientific minds on the planet. They summarily dismiss all of that sound data in favor of their own perverted and misinformed viewpoint. And you will never convince them otherwise. 😣

Yeah, there are two groups. One that advocates a cautious approach to loosening restrictions based on the best current data we have at hand and with all attempts to limit the spread and subsequent deaths. Not a complete lockdown - which we have never had in the US to begin with - and with the recognition that there will never be zero deaths until a vaccine is approved and made available to everyone everywhere..

And then there is the second group who categorize this all as a fad, a hoax or just another variant of the flu and categorically ignore any of the science that disputes this notion. They claim to be seeing the "big picture" when in fact they can't see the forest for the trees!! Don't let them sway you into thinking they are acting compassionately because they are not. The motivation is pure selfishness - they want what they want, they want it NOW and the hell with anyone else!! The fact that 10's of thousands more may die if they had their way doesn't seem to bother them at all. And that is being "compassionate"???

I am just so very glad I do not personally know anyone in this second group. Their ignorance is astounding and their rhetoric irritating, inaccurate and rage provoking. I'd like to smack 'em all upside their heads!

Bookwomen,Bookwoman, thanks for the fiqures. I'm outside gardening and don't have the time. That sounds like pity care. Of a city of 8.4 million 1482 is a " well, we got it here we might as well use it so the medical staff isn't overworked".

Gardengal, I give you 10,000 Likes!!!

function, I'll bet those 1,482 patients and their families didn't feel 'pitied', they felt cared for. And 'overworked' doesn't begin to describe the horrific conditions that some NYC hospital workers are undergoing.

rage provoking

A small but consistent group here seems to start threads for that very purpose. Not for light, but for heat.

I'd like to see the world agree to an annual 50 day shutdown.

drewsmaga.....really...name calling. Not agreeing with someone is fine. Yes, most of the covid-19 deaths are from nursing homes. There is "no" cure for covid-19. Locked down "annually".....really? Each flu season Michael? Explain... please?

nicole, gardengal and others - I agree with you but consider the sources of the repeated ignorant and inane comments. They're not worth the time to respond and certainly not worth any aggravation.

Elmer, I wish I could turn a blind eye but when the same few posters spouting the same old nonsense pop up in every single Covid-related thread, it's hard to ignore.

I am going to try to keep my GW readings to the gardening forums and threads. Like actual physical gardening, it is emotionally soothing!!

I have a hunch that the 'free thinkers' here and elsewhere may not understand R-0 or R-naught factor of this plague vs. influenza. The 'R' stands for reproduction, that is how many people an infected person is likely to infect. The reproduction rate for COVID-19 right now is more than twice that of the flu, and for a society to reopen safely it needs to be below zero.

Additionally, almost all economists agree that getting this disease under control is essential and primary, if we truly want to save our economy from devastation.

And yes, this isn't 1969. There have been great advances in epidemiology & economics since then.

Infection & death rates at this time are still growing, not declining, and we're not even testing everyone to get a true count of how many people have the virus.

People like things that are black or white, they hate living in a gray area. Which is what this situation is becoming. More division in this country,,,just what we need.

This virus is something no one has ever seen before. I say, give the experts a chance to develop a medication and vaccine. In the meantime, let's be smart. We're all trying to figure this out. Do what we can to help those who need it.

My friend tells me that in Dubai, people are allowed out for 3 hours at a time. They must check-in and check-out. They get a stiff fine if they go over their time limit. See, it could be worse!

"I have a hunch that the 'free thinkers' ......."

Nah, they're non-thinkers.

Interesting:

NYC Increases H+H Testing
The city is adding 12 new Health+Hospitals testing sites in all five boroughs over the next two weeks. The city can currently test 5,100 people per day for COVID-19. The week of May 18, two sites will be added in Manhattan and Brooklyn, bringing the number of tests performed to 6,300. Then 10 more sites will be added in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, and Staten Island the week of May 25 to bring testing up to 10,700 per day

https://abc7ny.com/coronavirus-nyc-new-york-city-covid-19-update-news/6021383/

Whereas, the state of Wisconsin has the capacity to test almost 14,000 people per day.

Wisconsin Covid data

The population of just NYC is close to 8.4 million; the population of the entire state of Wisconsin is less than 5.9 million yet Wisconsin can test over twice as many people as NYC, per day.

Correction. Disturbing rather than interesting.

Disturbing, certainly, in that Wisconsin has gotten proportionally much more federal aid than NY. Take a look at this chart: https://www.thecentersquare.com/wisconsin/federal-funding-per-covid-19-case-in-wisconsin-was-582-635-in-mid-april/article_2ea7784a-8faf-11ea-a80f-f7b0aaf41c6f.html

NY: $33,936 per case

Wisconsin: $582,635 per case.

As of April 30, Los Angeles county:

The 34 sites can now conduct 18,000 tests a day

https://abc7.com/coronavirus-testing-los-angeles-covid-19-mayor-eric-garcetti-residents/6138729/

Wow! I had heard rumors that Trump was giving swing states everything they asked for--buying votes. I'd heard this about Florida and it doesn't surprise me that Wisconsin has received special treatment too.

While it is nice that areas have the ability to test those tests are only of the moment. They do not prevent anything. With the current attitude that I have seeing on various sites people are not staying home with it unless they are really ill. If they are staying home others in the household are not.

I wonder what the military will do when this virus affects most young people? They will have no one to recruit. They are currently not accepting anyone who has been diagnosed with it.

Check Snopes

Toby, the last that I knew California doesn't qualify as a swing state.

This, dated March 21:

LA CROSSE, Wis. (WMTV) -- The La Crosse-based Gunderson Medical Foundation announced Saturday that its Microbiology Research Laboratory created its own test for COVID-19 test and it will be able to produce the results in-house, meaning that patients could learn the results more quickly.

"Having the testing available in-house allows us to provide rapid turnaround test results, which is especially important when the patient is seriously ill or when rapid testing of close contacts are warranted," Steven M. Callister, PhD, who works at the Laboratory, said.

Gunderson says the test was developed based on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention guidelines based on the FDA’s Emergency Use Authorization protocol.

Since Thursday evening, the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse faculty and staff have been working to procure items needed to run the tests, the health system explained in a release. So far, it has collected enough supplies to run thousands of coronavirus tests.

https://www.nbc15.com/content/news/Wisconsin-based-health-system-develops-its-own-COVID-19-tests-568995601.html

April 9

...Alana Sterkel, assistant director in the communicable disease division of the Wisconsin State Laboratory of Hygiene at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, which has run thousands of tests for COVID-19 in the state, says we need more widely available testing to understand and curb the pandemic. Although the global surge in demand for testing materials has made the test harder to conduct in many places, WSLH’s colleagues at the university have pitched in to keep testing available in Wisconsin...

https://news.wisc.edu/wisconsin-state-laboratory-of-hygiene-works-with-campus-partners-to-test-for-covid-19/

As of May 7...

Here's What Hospitals Got in First Round of CARES Act Payments

Funding for hospitals in Covid-19 hotspots

New York hospitals received about $5 billion of the $12 billion allocated by HHS for hospitals in areas with high numbers of Covid-19 cases.

Wisconsin received $32.1 million.

https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/covid-19-high-impact-allocation.pdf

Back to the OP - I haven't read all of the posts so maybe this has been mentioned. Yes, there was a flu outbreak in the winter and it was over, then Woodstock happened, and then there was a second wave of the same flu outbreak which in some areas was worse and in some not as bad.

It wasn't known that there would be a second outbreak and that they deliberately planned Woodstock. The title of this thread is misleading and disingenuous.

This was shared above by maddielee. Here it is again:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-woodstock-pandemic-1968/misleading-claim-woodstock-took-place-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic-idUSKBN22J2MJ

The day before I got sick, I ran three miles, walked 10 more, then raced up the stairs to my fifth-floor apartment as always, slinging laundry with me as I went.

The next day, April 17, I became one of the thousands of New Yorkers to fall ill with Covid-19. I haven’t felt the same since.

I am one of the lucky ones. I never needed a ventilator. I survived. But 27 days later, I still have lingering pneumonia. I use two inhalers, twice a day. I can’t walk more than a few blocks without stopping...

The second day I was sick, I woke up to what felt like hot tar buried deep in my chest. I could not get a deep breath unless I was on all fours. I’m healthy. I’m a runner. I’m 33 years old...

I want Americans to understand that this virus is making otherwise young, healthy people very, very sick. I want them to know, this is no flu...

Maybe you don’t live in a big city. Maybe you don’t know anybody who is sick. Maybe you think we are crazy for living in New York. That’s fine. You don’t have to live like us or vote like us. But please learn from us. Please take this virus seriously.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/14/opinion/coronavirus-young-people.html

Don't discount what the flu is like, I nearly died as a child from the flu. I can't still remember the doctor telling my parents that I probably wouldn't last the night

Discounting what the flu is like isn't the issue right now. Discounting the spread and affects of covid 19, which many are doing, is the issue.

Lucille - maybe you should take a time out and think about how rude, wrong and inappropriate your above comment is. Reality is that there are multiple sides to this issue, that you don't like my viewpoint that's your problem not mine.

Lucille - your post is rambling and incoherent.

Trying to stir the pot, Raye?

Sleeperblues, either someone put a lid on the pot or Lucile had sobering thoughts and deleted the offensive comment she wrote.

Thanks for the explanation, I couldn't see anything that was offensive.

Sleeper - you probably missed reading what Lucille wrote since it's removed, it was very strange and yes, as ci_lantro said, quite offensive.

Sleeper - you probably missed reading what Lucille wrote since it's removed, it was very strange and yes, as ci_lantro said, quite offensive.

I do not recall removing such a post, but it may be the perfect accusation, since my memory is not what it once was. Certainly, I've said plenty about Raye that is unflattering to her and it is still here (and I still stand behind those comments and most of them describe her behavior well).