Karen, I've been using these teepees a lot. I often find that, when a rose I've planted in a cluster is spreading too widely and invading other roses's space, I drive the 10ft rebars into the ground and secure them at the top; then tie the "wild" rose to the structure. My point is that, instead of re-locating a "spreading" rose, I just train it vertically. I do think it makes sense, however, to be able to have some room to maneuver around them, but this isn't always possible in my collection. When a rose on rebar seems to be sending out canes that are wider then the alloted space (i.e., beyond the rebar dimensions I had intended for it, I just pull the canes to the rebar and secure it to the structure with twine...or I cut the canes to fit.) I am finding that some of the roses grow much taller than the teepee (perhaps 6 feet taller, then, the canes start arching back down...it's a lovely sight for me). Some of my rebar teepees are as close as 2-3 ft from each other (Golden Celebration and Jude the Obscure come to mind...as well as MIP and Constance Spry). I would like to say that it IS wiser to set the rebar a little wider at the bottom. I've set a couple of them at only about an 18" diameter, and when the rose gets top heavy the structure can get wobbly. When a description of a rose says it's gonna need to be spaced 5 ft apart, this is not always reliable information. It really is gonna depend on your climate. An excellent example is the David Austin roses. Most descriptions of the David Austin roses suggest that they will stay 3-4 ft x 3-4 ft.... This is probably for a climate in England. For me 3-4 ft might really end up being 10-12 ft.... no exaggeration. So, when I space roses, it's always a "wait and see what's goon a happen" thing. In your situation, I'd space the individual teepees as far apart as I could to fill the space. If the roses don't exceed their space, plant other roses in between the teepees.. And, I ALWAYS put a clematis with the roses on the teepees... I hope this helps some. Robert

The size 5x5 is the size when 10 years old normally. In shade they grow taller and in full sun they tend to stay that size more or less. Rhododendrons are healthier if they are allowed some air to breath. So for a very health plant, plant 6 or 7 feet apart. You can plant on a zigzag line so that from the front, they look closer together. Or you can plant in two staggered rows so that they look closer together. In reality, most people plant 4' apart. I have done this. What happens is that they grow together. You only get flowers on the front and on the top after they grow together. I have a rhododendron bed where about 40 plants were planted in two rows about 4.5 feet apart 40 years ago. I anticipated future growth and planted in groups of 4 of the same variety. It now looks like each group of 4 is a very gigantic plant. It is an interesting effect. The plants have stayed healthy, but shade each other and are somewhat open in their growth.

digdirt - I meant to ask, what's the reason for keeping determinates grouped with determinates, and indeterminates with indeterminates? I was considering mixing things up a bit, but I won't, if there's a good reason not to. One way I thought it could help is by planting a determinate between 2 indeterminates. Then pulling the determinate when it was done, so the other 2 would have more space later in the season. Sounds good in theory doesn't it? But it doesn't work in real life unless you aggressively prune to only the main stem. As you can tell from the pics aggressive pruning isn't something many of us do. As already mentioned the indeterminates will quickly smother the determinates, block the sun exposure to them, and suck up all the soil nutrients. Plus if you tried to pull them you'd be ripping up roots of the indeterminates too. You don't include your zone or location in your posts (BIG help if you would) but in much of the country determinates will give you a second crop later in the season as the weather cools so they don't get ripped out all that early either. These rows several years back were planted on 4' spacing so you can see the problems you'd have with only using 2 1/2'. I have since gone to 5'. See the wooden staked determinate on the right side? Imagine it in between 2 of the 8' tall indeterminates. ;) I'm planning to use a variation of dcarch's trellising system (google dcarch+tomato if you're interested), where plants are supported on 2 sides by a series of horizontal strings. Similar to a clothesline, but with multiple levels. Yeah that method is named "Florida weave" and you'll find a great deal of info and reviews on it here and on the web if you use that label. But it is your garden so try it your way if you wish. Hands-on experience is the best teacher. ;) Dave

Do I put them side by side touching? Or do I have to let there be space between the cages? Most definitely need space between them. 3 feet is the average. Some of us use 4 feet. The whole advantage to using cages is that you can do what they do naturally. Many branches will remain inside - depending on the diameter of the cage - many will poke out of the cages. Either way works. Early on in the season I do some tucking back in but as they reach full growth that is impossible. If you browse through the discussions here on cages and spacing you'll find several pictures many of us have posted in the past that will be of help to you. These are a couple I have posted several times in the past. My cages are 30" diameter and set on 4 foot spacing. Same plants in August of that year. Dave