Sorry, but the BF is DEFINITELY coming into my house and I am DEFINITELY going into his. Anyone that thinks that we are not going to see each other for however long this thing lasts is living under a rock.

And I have elderly parents that absolutely require me to go inside their house occasionally. They do have caregivers, but there are things I have to (unfortunately) help them with and virus or no, I have to go in the house.

I had an appliance repairman in this morning, and am having a plumber in next week.

So there. :-)

Friend of mine is on a dating app. She has been messaging with a fellow and he wanted to come to her place (different cities) with a bottle of wine. She asked if he isn't aware of the precautions, and he said that he's safe. She turned him down of course.

Chessie, you can be sure many of us are nothing but impressed with what a clear thinking person you are. As long as your neighbors, friends, parents and you have current wills or other estate planning documents, why is it anyone's business?

(The answer is obvious to many but apparently not to you).

Raye, how does that help isolating at risk people when a lot of us at risk people also are working in "essential" jobs? Are we just expendable? Every one of my coworkers is high risk for one reason or another.

Elmer J Fudd

Chessie, you can be sure many of us are nothing but impressed with what a clear thinking person you are. As long as your neighbors, friends, parents and you have current wills or other estate planning documents, why is it anyone's business?

(The answer is obvious to many but apparently not to you).

Don't be so obtuse. You seriously think that elderly people have to do WITHOUT their caregivers? That people in a relationship are NOT going to see each other?? That leaks in the home cannot be repaired?

Get real. I take precautions. As everyone should. Repairmen wear masks and gloves. I wear a mask in stores and at my parents. BF does not have any contact with others in his day, and I work from home.

Sheesh.

I am reminded of the old poster that stated It not matter who you have sex with you are also having sex with everyone they have ever had sex with. No matter who you interact with you are also interacting with everyone that they have came in contact with.

Chessie, unless the people in a relationship currently live together, to see each other closer than six feet is the ultimate act of hate and degradation. Seriously, if someone said he cared for me, he would wait until it was safe for both of us. If he asked to come over I would tell him to hit the road jack.

As far as repairmen, my dishwasher went out weeks ago and while I do complain just a little to vent, I wash the dishes and wouldn't think of asking the apt. crew to fix it now.

I wear a mask in stores

Grocery stores deliver. What are you doing in a store?

So there. :-)

en·ti·tled

/inˈtīdld,enˈtīdld/

adjective

1. believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.

I'm seeing a pattern here. Those that need to stay in isolation want to make sure that everyone else suffers along with them.

Most authorities state that around 60% of the population need to be infected to stop the spread in the general public. I would be willing to have the infection (and then I would be in total isolation until non-infectious) or be a vaccine tester. How many of you are willing to do so to protect others?

Lucille - we have a few grocery stores here, but none deliver. The closest store that would have delivery service is over 90 miles away.

"Chessie, unless the people in a relationship currently live together, to see each other closer than six feet is the ultimate act of hate and degradation. Seriously, if someone said he cared for me, he would wait until it was safe for both of us. If he asked to come over I would tell him to hit the road jack."

Okay, you're nuts. Seriously nuts, or either you just get you giggles off on this board.

"So there" was me being funny. Clearly you only wish to understand humor when it is your humor. But whatever.

That's great if you want to do laundry by hand, or pay a huge water bill from a leak. Not everyone shares in that desire. If people want to be overcautious, there is certainly nothing wrong with that, especially those that are in a high-risk category.

You are quite the pill.

" How many of you are willing to do so to protect others?"

Raising my hand.

I'm seeing a pattern here. Those that need to stay in isolation want to make sure that everyone else suffers along with them.

I see the opposite. Most people here want to prevent others from suffering from a highly contagious disease that has killed many people. I am low risk myself, being young and healthy, but I haven't left my house in over a month to do my part to help keep others safe.

The pattern I see is there will always be selfish people who think their own needs and wants are more important than the lives of other people.

I think there is a difference between having someone come in to fix something (many companies are advertising no contact service calls in my area) and having a dinner party, a barbeque,or a game night. The frustration (I think) comes from those who are carrying on with such gatherings not just in spite of, but in some sort of arrogant defiance of these orders. It's like when youre in a mandatory meeting or in a class and there is like,4 or five people in the back who cannot SHUT UP and stop chatting to let the class or meeting begin so you can just get through it and get out. Chat later. You're negatively affecting the rest of us. But they dont care. They must get their chat on.....

I am being offered a lot of flack for continuing to go to work. Until someone offers to pay all of my bills forever along with the flack they offer, I just ignore it. Not everyone can work from home,not everyone is retired with guaranteed income,not everyone can get supplies delivered, and not everyone is able to stay holed up for the next year. But NO ONE NEEDS to be having parties, gatherings, whatever. Not during normal times, not during a pandemic.

The spread of Corona Virus is based on two factors.

1. How dense the population is.

2. How dense the population is.

maifleur03

I am reminded of the old poster that stated It not matter who you have sex with you are also having sex with everyone they have ever had sex with. No matter who you interact with you are also interacting with everyone that they have came in contact with.

And since neither of us have any contact with others, we are good.

Chessie unless neither of you have never had any sextual contact with anyone else you are still sleeping with all the other people that came before you which is what those poster's were about.

Sorry Sephia I am certainly not ignoring the question. Yesterday I was cooking and spending time with my family to open any non important emails at all. If fact I didn't open any due to none were important. This is the first time today I have sufficient downtime to open emails. Looking back through the posts I did not see any posts from Maddielee addressing me. Most of my messages I deem important come via text.

" I'm really interested in hearing from functionthenlook and Raye Smith about the strategy they would suggest be used to manage this pandemic. Maddielee asked the same question. "

First there is many factors to the spread of COVID 19.

1. timing, 2 population density, 3. age distribution and comorbidities, 4 mitigation, testing capacity, and 6. reporting practices.

Mitigation is only 1 of 6. Do you hear about the others, no.

One size does not fit all when it pertains to community acquired illnesses. Just because one illness is prevalent in one city in a state or one state in the US does not necessitating closing most of the US down. I seen people stating the shut down rules should be the same nationwide. With that reasoning used every time one school is shut down in the US because of a norovirius, all schools in the US should be shut down. Same with there should be no state, county or local laws, all laws should be federal and apply to all. We are too vast of a nation for one rule fits all.

As usual to any conflict people jump to the worst conclusions and over compensate. Instead of searching for a middle ground they swing way to far the other way. The same with this virus. Instead of reading the book front to back they started back to front. Each area should of first closed down mass gatherings systematically. First the mass sporting events, etc. Then evaluate. Then down through the chain evaluating after each shut down only shutting down what is necessary for that particular areas hospitals capacity to treat patients.

Yes, NYC hospitals are overwhelmed. You have to take in the density of the population compared to other parts of the US. In NY the majority of people are herded like cattle from apartment buildings to buses or subways to get anywhere. The ED dept where I worked sent a team of nurses to observe back in the 80s or 90s (sorry don't remember exactly) to a NYC hospital. Even then our nurses were astonished at how overwhelmed their hospitals were in the best of times.

Even in my state of Pennsylvania the numbers are not consistent. In Philadelphia county there is 6810 infected and 127 deaths . In my county of Allegheny which includes the city of Pittsburgh the number infected is 876 and 21 deaths. Quite a difference, but yet we are shut down the same. All of our deaths are over 65 and except for one had a comorbidity. The US cumulative is 119.6 per 100,000 people, but our city is only 8.6 per 100,000. You see why one size does not fit all.

Lets talk Ro Measles Ro is 12 - 18, Sars Ro 3, and influenza Ro is 2-3 while Covid 19 estimated Ro is 1.5 - 3. If the Measles Ro is 12-18 why are non vacs aloud to go on life as usual. Yes they can transmit the virus. Babies can not be vaccinated against Measles until 12 months old. Yet they let these people run around as free birds while the Ro on Covid 19 is only 1.5 - 3. Did we shut down for SARS? N, because they used tracing. Why didn't they do that in the beginning?

If some of yinz can remember back to basic business 101 you learned statistics can be manipulated and askewed or important statistics not even reported to favor an outcome.

You can not get a true percentage of deaths based on the number of known infected and the number of deaths. You need to have the total number of infected, the current number infected and the infected that are not reported to get an accurate death rate. 25 to 50 percent of the US is or WAS infected and not reported, because they were not tested. They have the test to tell who was infected and thus has immunity, but are they pushing that test. No! It is a simple pin prick test that could even be done at the local pharmacy. If that was done and the death rate drops as some researcher believe it would then the powers to be would have egg on their face.

Oh, by the way the infection rate for the Influenza is drastically under reported. Nobody tells you that, do they. Estimated flu deaths per year is 12,000 - 61,000 and estimated infection is 9.3 million - 45 million. Compared to approximate deaths 22, 109 as of April 13th and 557,590 infected with Covid 19 . Approximate means that all the numbers are not collected and estimated is there is no tested numbers available. The wide swing on the flu numbers is because of how the flu is coded. Most doctors don't swab the nasal passages for the flu. If you have the symptoms of the flu, you have flu. Another words if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. And then you got the people who don't seek medical treatment for the flu. With outpt and observation coding you can not report the influenza code unless it was tested positive. And can only code the symptoms. You can not code possibles, probables, rule outs. Inpt coding is different and you can code in certain instances possible, probables and rule outs. It depends on the admitting and D/C diagnosis. As I said if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck and most inpt cause of deaths are coded to the comorbidity and only maybe the possible flu code.

Just because someone has Covid 19 does not mean the Covid 19 caused their death.

As usual to any conflict people jump to the worst conclusions and over compensate. Instead of searching for a middle ground they swing way to far the other way. The same with this virus. Instead of reading the book front to back they started back to front. Each area should of first closed down mass gatherings systematically. First the mass sporting events, etc. Then evaluate. Then down through the chain evaluating after each shut down only shutting down what is necessary for that particular areas hospitals capacity to treat patients.

That's not really how it works though. There's up to a 2 week incubation period for COVID-19 where people can spread it without knowing they are even sick. If you wait until the hospitals are nearly at capacity, that means they will be way, way over capacity in a week or two when all those people who were infected start showing symptoms.

That's why taking drastic preventative measures BEFORE the virus hits a community is the best way to flatten the curve. It won't prevent it completely because there are always people who think they are exceptions and will keep spreading it.

Functionthenlook - good job, totally agree, well written!

Chi - the best estimate is the pre-symptomatic infectious stage is 5 day with the far end of the Gaussian distribution at 14 days. Please stop spreading misinformation.

Chessie - great, I just found out about something we can do! Check out https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-begins-study-quantify-undetected-cases-coronavirus-infection?fbclid=IwAR0srtY1SZj0tsKVBCf8P6i0CTHfdQCDlI9k8PmCSWN_VtqrWGmFPEj1kJY

I will be 58 this month. In all of my memory I don’t recall huge morgue trucks parked behind the local hospital before. Two of them. It’s a small hospital.

Believe me. You can’t take it too seriously.

This is NOT anything like the yearly flu. Please understand that. Take care of yourself and your loved ones by taking every precaution.

It is heartbreaking. People who are entering the hospital go in alone. Surrounded by overworked and under protected staff. No family to comfort them. This is real.

They have begun testing at Stanford also. If/when they open it to the public I would be happy to be first in line.

http://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/04/stanford-medicine-develops-antibody-test-for-coronavirus.html

I truly believe when the facts come out we will find that this virus is not as deadly as it has been presented to us. We have to find a way to get some factual information on who has actually had the virus. There should be an end to calling the dying patient with cancer. kidney failure, heart disease who finally passes away in in the nursing home or hospital a Covid19 casualty.

There should be an end to calling the dying patient with cancer. kidney failure, heart disease who finally passes away in in the nursing home or hospital a Covid19 casualty.

No. Not if the cause of death was the virus. In fact in terms of accuracy for virus-related deaths, it may be the other way around as NYC released data showing a huge ramp up in the number of cardiac deaths vs. last year...which would suggest they are covid related, rather than heart disease being the primary cause.

maifleur03

Chessie unless neither of you have never had any sextual contact with anyone else you are still sleeping with all the other people that came before you which is what those poster's were about.

Honey we have been together for nearly 11 years. We ain't sleeping with ANYONE else. YMMV.

Interesting take: I was diagnosed with breast cancer in late February. Surgery was scheduled for April 14 (today). We all know what hit the fan in the meantime....and I have not been within 6' of ANYONE (other than DH) since March 14. Due to the virus, my surgery has been termed "elective". It is now tentatively scheduled for May 18th. So, if the theory above holds, if my cancer "evolves" and takes a drastic turn, I would be categorized as a 'victim' of corona virus? ~ Also, as the saying goes: follow the money! Has anyone seen how the costs are billed from hospitals on virus vs non-virus? Astonishing!!! Hospitals are crumbling without "elective" surgeries to support the day-to-day costs of running their institutions. I hope and pray for those of us who have been put on "hold". Who knew cancer was "elective"?

Confirmation bias. That's what people are doing to justify their way of thinking. It's all over this thread. Data can be manipulated to "verify" what you believe.

Raye Smith

Chessie - great, I just found out about something we can do! Check out https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-begins-study-quantify-undetected-cases-coronavirus-infection?fbclid=IwAR0srtY1SZj0tsKVBCf8P6i0CTHfdQCDlI9k8PmCSWN_VtqrWGmFPEj1kJY

Awesome. I just emailed them. Thanks for that link!!!

sc_irish, I'm so sorry you have been caught in this. I have a cousin that is in the same situation - her desperately needed surgery has been put on hold. I also have a good friend in Sarasota that works at the hospital there, they have started furloughing staff due to lost revenue from canceled surgeries. They currently have 32 COVID-19 patients in the hospital, and have 30% fewer inpatients and 50% less surgeries. This virus needs to get resolved - it is hurting everyone in many different ways. :-(

This discussion can go on ad nauseum and there will always be this divide. Those that read, follow the news from trusted sources, listen to medical authorities and the scientists studying this entirely new phenomenon and try diligently to follow the precautions urged on them by people much more informed than any of us posting here to at the very least try to flatten the curve and keep themselves and their loved ones safe.

And then there are those who believe that they know more than anyone else, including a whole host of medical and scientific authorities, and blithely carry on as if this is no big deal. But it is!! Nothing in the history of mankind has ever come close this with the possible exception of the Black Death. What we don't know about this disease is far more vast than what we do know and comparisons to anything we may have experienced previously are simply invalid. INVALID!! It is apples and oranges.

But you are never going to convince that minority - thankfully - of naysayers of that. They will continue to hold those self righteous, uninformed selfish attitudes until this thing comes close enough to bite them in the butt. As it will. And then try to justify their behavior by attributing it something else.

btw, neither Raye Smith nor functionthelook have answered the questions they were posed.........which was how they would manage this pandemic. Instead they have just spouted a bunch of statistics and random facts and figures, which may or may not be true. How can they be sure when no one else with far greater training and experience than Joe or Jane Public is certain about the details? Yet they continue to complain about the current management efforts while they have offered nothing by way of any viable alternative solutions. If you can read you can easily conclude that simply isolating those at a higher risk is not gonna cut it. Non-high risk people are catching and dying from this disease as well.....maybe not in as great a number as those in a higher risk category but dead is still dead!

It is pointless to continue this discussion. They will never be convinced that their minority view is not accurate. And they will continue to disseminate misinformation and untruths and prolong this event while the rest of us are fighting desperately to stay healthy and to keep those we cherish alive and well.

Thanks for nothing!!

Chessie - our little general hospital may go under also. We have had a grand total of one hospitalized case of covid in this county. All the dentist and physicians offices here are closed and aren't expected allowed to reopen until summer at the earliest. So much for available medical care...

Me too - I hope to hear from them!

One thing that heartens me, is that every person who has posted here is trying to do the right thing, neither over- nor under-reacting, using the information they have. We don't all live in super-crowded NYC and we don't all live where the nearest neighbor is miles away. We don't all have the same individual challenges or responsibilities.

I just wish there would be more basic biology education from the media/social media ... you know, about the difference between bacteria, fungi, viruses; why certain measures are important now for our collective challenges and responsibilities.

"Chi - the best estimate is the pre-symptomatic infectious stage is 5 day with the far end of the Gaussian distribution at 14 days. Please stop spreading misinformation."

Umm, I said "up to 2 weeks" and you said 14 days at the far end. Sounds the same to me - where is the misinformation in what I said?

Chessie, functionthenlook, Raye Smith, and others who think they are exceptional, how do all those statistics justify you as one individual from ignoring the CDC's and our governors' orders to avoid nonessential contact with those who live outside the home?

It is pointless to continue this discussion. They will never be convinced that their minority view is not accurate.

I think you are correct that they will not change their minds or their sense of entitlement. However, I think the thread holds value because not everyone has made up their minds as to what they believe, and meeting inaccuracies with facts may still save lives.

I haven't said anything about being exceptional but my professional history includes over a decade of being a microbiologist (including in depth college courses and passing multiple state exams).

Toby

Chessie, functionthenlook, Raye Smith, and others who think they are exceptional, how do all those statistics justify you as one individual from ignoring the CDC's and our governors' orders to avoid nonessential contact with those who live outside the home?

Pardon? Where have I said or even implied that I am "exceptional"?? I have ignored NO orders, and certainly would not.

Visiting anyone outside the home is ignoring orders. Anyone who ignores orders is behaving like they are exceptional.

A mask protects others but it doesn't protect you. You could have caught the virus without knowing it and then you visit BF and parents. If they need you for care, that's a different story.

We should err on the side of caution because there are so many unknowns at this time. Considering the possible deadly (and unpredictable, because this has killed people of all ages and in all health conditions) consequences for those who come down with it, it is prudent to try to prevent infection by all means possible. And for those who live in areas where covid-19 cases are very low, don't you want to keep it that way?

Which would you prefer - a small percentage of people dying from the disease or massive numbers of people dying from the results of the shutdown? Do you really think that grocery stores will give food away for free? Will pharmacies give medications away for free? Will housing become free? Will medical care be free? These are all things that those that have lost their jobs and have no way to get another job will face in time as their reserve money disappears. How many months/years can the average person live without any source of income? For many that time is short and coming up too fast. This is a case of the cure being worse than the disease.

Chessie:

Sorry, but the BF is DEFINITELY coming into my house and I am DEFINITELY going into his. Anyone that thinks that we are not going to see each other for however long this thing lasts is living under a rock.

Honey we have been together for nearly 11 years. We ain't sleeping with ANYONE else. YMMV.

11 years? No cohabitation?

You sure your BF feels the same about mitigation measures as you do?

Perhaps he wouldn't be terribly adverse to some social distance. Hmm.

Which would you prefer - a small percentage of people dying from the disease or massive numbers of people dying from the results of the shutdown?

A false choice, which is a favorite debate tactic of those who just want a win but don't want to actually think about what they are saying. Thinking people realize that there are other choices available.

This is a case of the cure being worse than the disease.

A thoughtless scare tactic. The disease can get pretty bad, whereas cooperation and thought will find ways to re establish commerce slowly without a huge death toll.

Raye, perhaps you have been hanging out in the drama infested mudslinging forums where people try to win by short sound bites. That isn't going to work here. KT has numerous thoughtful people who check facts.

Raye, I think you should throw a party in your home and invite everyone you know who shares your views.

How sad, I guess I'm the only one here thinking about how difficult it must be for the millions that have lost their jobs and how difficult their futures will be. I'm blessed that my hubby still has a job but since the isolation policy is likely here to be extended he is at high risk of losing his job with no way to get other employment. The longer this continues the more likely that some of the other posters here may also find themselves in the same situation.

How sad, I guess I'm the only one here thinking about how difficult it must be for the millions that have lost their jobs and how difficult their futures will be.

Most of us understand the difficulties, but thoughtful people realize that making sure the greatest number of people HAVE futures outweighs the temporary burdens that may occur.

Do you work, Raye?

"Which would you prefer - a small percentage of people dying from the disease or massive numbers of people dying from the results of the shutdown?...This is a case of the cure being worse than the disease."

I'm sure most people would choose being unemployed over dead for themselves and their loved ones. I know I would. I don't see anyone's lives as disposable enough to sacrifice for the economy.

Which would you prefer - a small percentage of people dying from the disease or massive numbers of people dying from the results of the shutdown?

You have it exactly backwards. A shutdown will keep many people alive and not dying of the disease. The shutdown is the *only* weapon we have right now against this disease. We have no vaccines, no immunity, no treatment, no cures.

Economic recessions have not proven to be especially deadly...rather in even some of the worst recessions, death rates have declined due to lower rates of heart attacks and car accidents.

I'm curious, if you're so worried about jobs and feeding families, how do you suppose a family is to be fed if the breadwinner is out working, acquires the disease and dies? Wouldn't a temporary layoff and a return to work be better?

Raye, I understand your perspective. This situation has underscored in a major way the lack of social net in our country (I'm talking the US here), that many workers without a week's pay can find themselves in dire circumstances (I'm not talking about your circumstances but those in general). My hope is that when this is all over, we look around and give some credit to people who've carried us through this time by going to work every day... and that we are generous to those who needed to, financially, but couldn't.

In addition, when schools shut down, many families scramble for child care. Those with elderly parents are worried about who might be taking care of them. Many businesses are in trouble, and our entire economy is on edge. We are all, collectively, too fragile.

I get that. And it's a luxury for me to have a job that allows me to work at home. I'm lucky that my kids can continue their education at home with proper technology access. We are nothing short of blessed when others are not.

But this is why I'm enforcing stay-at-home so that we can do our part to slow the spread. Yeah--I'm seeing a lot of ways this shutdown hasn't been handled well. But until we can come up for air and look around and decide what could have been done better, it makes sense to follow some basic rules of just staying home to give, especially, our healthcare system a chance to catch up and our leaders (local, state and federal, many of whom are grappling) a chance to figure out how to deal with this mess. There have been many poor decisions made and a lot of mishandlings. But not following the basics of social isolation just exaggerates the mess that we already have here on our hands.

llucy

11 years? No cohabitation?

You sure your BF feels the same about mitigation measures as you do?

Perhaps he wouldn't be terribly adverse to some social distance. Hmm.

LOL. Just because you prefer cohabitation does not mean everyone else does. My goodness some folks sure are completely unaware of how different others are from themselves. And cute on the little insinuation. FWIW, he can't wait until I retire. I am the one that prefers my own space. Guess you can't comprehend that, but it really isn't important here.

Toby

Visiting anyone outside the home is ignoring orders. Anyone who ignores orders is behaving like they are exceptional.

Totally incorrect.

https://www.governor.virginia.gov/media/governorvirginiagov/executive-actions/EO-55-Temporary-Stay-at-Home-Order-Due-to-Novel-Coronavirus-(COVID-19).pdf

"A mask protects others but it doesn't protect you. You could have caught the virus without knowing it and then you visit BF and parents. If they need you for care, that's a different story."

Gee. Ya think??? Maybe read more thoroughly next time.

I haven't seen my grandson in a month. The closest we've come is when we drop things off at his parents house. We place the items on the chair at their front door, ring the bell than back off about 10-12 feet and wait for them to open the door. Nobody is allowed inside my house. Not even my kids.

My biggest pet peeve are people who come into the store I work at without a purpose, or just to buy junk food or hair colour. Nothing essential (bread, milk, eggs, bacon, cheese, juice, medications). Just non-essential items and they touch EVERYTHING. Just because you're wearing gloves doesn't mean you can touch things with your dirty gloves on........... (but that's another thread)

and they touch EVERYTHING.

You may want to put up a sign. "Commit to buy before touching"