I am partial to Buehl’s Layout #2 - nice large sink with a view, step in pantry, when you enter the kitchen you will be wowed with a nice range hood and cooktop. All of the info about pantry storage and use are on point. I have a large cabinet over my fridge that is barely accessible to me but the storage is still nice to have for things I don’t use often.
I strongly urge to keep the fridge away from the wall if at all possible. I can only open 1 door 90 degrees and it makes me so angry. Very tricky to remove the crisper and meat drawer for cleaning. When I pointed this out during design there were all sorts of assurances that it would be fine but they don’t live here, grrrr.
Thinking you could possibly modify one of those kitchen island carts with a larger top to use in the bay window. Stools could be pushed under out of the way and if you needed extra prep area it could be rolled out with room to work around.
Pro tip - get a small bucket to put on the counter during prep. All your scrap/trash can be contained here then easily dumped. Every cooking class I’ve taken has a set up like this.

Please keep us posted during your remodel!

Hey there, B. Spiro!

There are always multiple solutions to a challenging kitchen plan but sometimes choosing a solution for one of the problems/constraints of a floorplan dictates what the final layout will look like.

So let’s figure out this Bay Window situation.

There is an indisputable charm to bay windows especially when they are in a house like yours from the 1930s. Losing it or any of the windows in your kitchen means difficult work on fixing the exterior, less light in the kitchen and less of the 1930s charm. So let’s just say that’s a no no.

Now, as stated before, using the space in front of the bay window as a countertop is just not practical, as you can’t have a continuous worktop because of the bay depth. This means that you have to go for another function like a desk/ separate worktop/bar or, the one I think goes best with this type of window, a window seat.

Let’s add the window seat to the plan along with other constraints that we know:

• the laundry chute
• position of closet
• sink - for practical reasons we keep the sink where it was
  • the reason why usually the sink is under the window is because it is quite nice to wash the dishes while looking outside but not cutting vegetables ;)
• kitchen ailes for traffic requirements

Ok, now let’s add some of the items on the wishlist:

• triangle workflow
  • having determined the position of the sink and also excluding the possibility of a worktop in front of the bay window we can explore the possibility of placing another countertop area behind the closet.
• Island
  • the circulation ailes imply that there is room for a small island in the middle of the kitchen
• mudroom
  • for a clean look and more functionality the laundry chute is closed in by storage space on each side - closet & a bench with hooks to form a mudroom space

Let’s see how everything works once we add the walls and all the kitchen appliances:

This layout did not take into consideration any vent requirements you might have but still, I hope it gives you a different perspective :) Good luck with your project!

Hey there, B. Spiro!

There are always multiple solutions to a challenging kitchen plan but sometimes choosing a solution for one of the problems/constraints of a floorplan dictates what the final layout will look like.

So let’s figure out this Bay Window situation.

There is an indisputable charm to bay windows especially when they are in a house like yours from the 1930s. Losing it or any of the windows in your kitchen means difficult work on fixing the exterior, less light in the kitchen and less of the 1930s charm. So let’s just say that’s a no no.

Now, as stated before, using the space in front of the bay window as a countertop is just not practical, as you can’t have a continuous worktop because of the bay depth. This means that you have to go for another function like a desk/ separate worktop/bar or, the one I think goes best with this type of window, a window seat.

Let’s add the window seat to the plan along with other constraints that we know:

• the laundry chute
• position of closet
• sink - for practical reasons we keep the sink where it was
  • the reason why usually the sink is under the window is because it is quite nice to wash the dishes while looking outside but not cutting vegetables ;)
• kitchen ailes for traffic requirements

Ok, now let’s add some of the items on the wishlist:

• triangle workflow
  • having determined the position of the sink and also excluding the possibility of a worktop in front of the bay window we can explore the possibility of placing another countertop area behind the closet.
• Island
  • the circulation ailes imply that there is room for a small island in the middle of the kitchen
• mudroom
  • for a clean look and more functionality the laundry chute is closed in by storage space on each side - closet & a bench with hooks to form a mudroom space

Let’s see how everything works once we add the walls and all the kitchen appliances:

This layout did not take into consideration any vent requirements you might have but still, I hope it gives you a different perspective :) Good luck with your project!

Please reread the previous Kitchen Design Best Practices/ Guidelines posted above. Especially about workflow, aisles, barrier islands, etc.

Also, reality of spacing requirements for refrigerators.

Laura - may I suggest some tweaks? I'd suggest a soffit running from the cooktop through to the pantry wall in order to vent that cooktop (I would loose the wing wall to the left of the sink in order to open up the feel of that corridor). I'd have a prep sink and trash in the island and trash next to the sink in order to make this more functional (read about dripping trash runs up thread). There should be a large filler to the right of the fridge in order to open the fridge. (We love our 24" wide Liebherr counter depth refrigerator - that would be a possibility there). B Spiro - I think count up the storage quantities/useable counter space of each of your preferred schemes and weigh against cost and you should be able to narrow down!

Hemina - I'm sorry I didn't comment on your open layout upthread - the downside I see to that is lack of any coat/shoe/backpack storage. I think that has to be addressed (and maybe it can be in the family room? dunno) Also, I think OP didn't want to loose some semblance of connection to the family room so I wouldn't close off that opening entirely.

Thank you @thinkdesignlive. @hemina im sorry I missed it too. Yes, we definitely need a closet for clothes shoes. Since we use the back door most, I’d not all the time, it would be so much more convenient if it were closer to the back door.

I get the closet issue! What about taking @Laura U ‘s idea but moving the fridge/pantry? Put in a range instead of separate ovens, have a “snack” pantry + regular pantry, put in a skinny cabinet next to fridge for broom/mop storage. And figure out how to get the stove vented from there.

@hemina is that your kitchen with the pull out tall shelves? How wide is it? I love the storage!!

Yes-I believe it’s 9” wide.

I like that Hemina - that gives more storage flexibility (if a prep sink is added to the island).

Playing off that last idea, and knowing you have to be realistic about aisle spacing (there really isn’t room for an overhang on the island along the bench wall) so this island layout may solve that (and make the bay area look intentional). Also, having the back door area opened up by moving those walls out would create a true mudroom and help ease all of the tight hallways there.

Lastly, you could squeeze in a small stool that stays tucked under the island when not in use and maybe room for 12” deep shelves in the bay just to get every last inch of storage/use.

I could also see a tweak to the above layout where the fridge is 30" wide and moved to the far right of the sink (filler by the wall for door swing or a thin pull out pantry assuming window sill isn't an issue). Here is the 24" Liebherr I was talking about. It's around 2k. And maybe you do a small microwave in the pantry cabinet? or a micro drawer in the island.

We had to put in a soffit for the AC because of the beams running everywhere...that was the only way to get it to work. But I think it looks fine. I think it would work for the stove in the last idea. I did have the split pullout on my design, but kind of glad we did the full. I was thinking about putting in baking sheets and/or cutting boards in the upper portion.

Thank you @thinkdesignlive and @hemina! I was reading these comments to my husband today, and he said "i understand you spend more time doing prep, but what do you want to look at while you're prepping?" Ugh! With the good questions...I love the more open layouts with a work island in the middle for that reason. I think he's just working to persuade me for 'his' plan.

I'd LOVE to open that hallway and make it wider with the mudroom like space. It is a load bearing wall, and definitely something we plan to explore with our contractor when we can see him again, in person.

I think @thinkdesignlive’s last idea opens it up nicely with the island for prep. I’m glad we put in the giant beam to open up our space because I love the light coming in throughout the house now, but noise is something to consider too! Now that we’re all home 100% of the time, we all have to be pretty quiet/considerate of each other with the open plan.

Your house looks lovely Hemina! Yes I had a feeling that wall was load bearing near the back door - but we can 'dream' here at least can't we? I have to say I'm really torn about how you open up from the dining room side - having it off center vs a centered opening - it would really help if you could model in that room as well so you can see perspective views and how that might impact your decision.

I'm sorry, but I think the last couple would be very inconvenient to work in. I know you're trying to get a lot in, but I would not want to be running back and forth b/w the sink, the island, and the cooktop/range trying to prepare a meal. It makes it even worse b/c that will be a busy aisle with the backdoor right there.

At the very least, put in a prep sink so you don't have THREE places to run around while preparing a meal.

Add to that the relatively narrow aisles b/w the DW & island and b/w the cooktop/range & island, and, personally, I would not find it pleasant to work in.

You don't find it pleasant to prep in front of a window?

It's up to you, though, it's your Kitchen. I just want you to have the best functional space possible - which means minimal traffic in the Prep/Cooking Zones, water IN the primary Prep Zone, plenty of functional workspace, etc. I want you to be as happy working in your Kitchen as I am in mine. (BTW...I had to give up the idea of an island b/c it just didn't fit in my Kitchen. It took folks here a bit of work to make me realize one would not fit b/c I wanted one (with seating) like everyone else, but I'm glad they persevered and I finally accepted the reality of the space I had available to work with -- I love my island-less Kitchen and now see how much of an obstacle it would have been. I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone in your desires.)

Good luck with your remodel!

Which layout do you like the best Buehl?

I think that any layout that forces a "table" with any kind of seating outside the interior of the bay is not going to work. Even inside the bay is going to be problematical if there are seats around a table. The bare minimum for seating behind seats is 32", and that's for squeezing by and there is no "outlet" behind the seats (i.e, a "dead end").

Any layout will work that:

• Follows Kitchen workflow without criss-crossing back and forth
• Keeps traffic out of at least directs traffic around the work aisle b/w water and the range/cooktop and, if possible, the refrigerator
• Has sufficient work aisles - at least 42", more, for example, in front of the refrigerator if it's by the doorway since it will be a busy path.
• Has no DW in the middle of the Prep Zone (especially b/c there's more than one person in the family)
• Has some sort of pantry storage. While I'm not a fan of wide pantry cabinets for food storage, it's not a deal-breaker, IMO.

The windows are really the constraining factor here -- their placement, in particular, the lack of usable continuous wall space to accommodate refrigerator, cooktop/range, sink, and sufficient workspace b/w the sink and range/cooktop.

I was working on another one, but haven't had time to finish it b/c of work and family obligations. However, if a decision has already been made, it's probably not worth spending the time to finish it.

Now that last one is probably the best of all! No traffic and plenty of workspace!

You could even move the sink & DW toward the Refrigerator, make the right cubby a bit shallower and have room to put the grocery bags on the counter at any time! Or, eliminate the cubby on the right and open the pass-through all the way to the wall and have a very large opening there. It would make the Kitchen appear bigger, too.

It would also provide a better view into the Family Room and backyard.

"...backyard and family room sight lines are very important..."

Off topic, but I was trying to find a picture of a pass through from a hallway/entry and ran into this gorgeous space...yum!

I found a couple pictures of the pass-through. I couldn’t picture it. I think it’s a cute idea!

Oh I really like those images Hemina! That could really work for this last plan. Thanks for digging!

Thanks all! Sorry I've been a little quiet- we took up painting the foyer and it has turned into a project. @thinkdesignlive thanks for this new one with the pass through, has my wheels spinning and is definitely not something we had considered.

@laurau thank you for your drawings and floorplan! Your plan is closest to one my husband had dreamed up; he was so excited to see an elevation drawing.

@hemina thanks for the images!! That last one looks almost like my house :)

Hi all! We've been a little quiet here taking on new projects around the house. Does it ever stop?!?!

We've also taken some time to talk about what would make us happy; and it comes back to the island plans, even if the island is small :) I know it doesn't make for the most efficient kitchen, and I appreciate your input so much. If it weren't for all of you- we might still be thinking of putting the range in the bay! I wanted to ask if anyone on the thread would be interested in helping us develop this plan further, suggest tweaks- while keeping the same feel, and guide on the best cabinets/drawers to use.

What’s in the bay, a bench?

I forgot, do you need the wall on the side of the stove?

With that long wall on sink side to provide you w storage I would just put a filler piece left of fridge so you gain inches of counter between fridge and cook surface. There will be a lot of action around there.

hi @emilyam819! I do not 'need' one. What would you do, have a pony with a cabinet abutting the wall, or just cabinet with counter?

The bay could be a bench or cabinet for things we don't use often. We could make use of the counter space to put our coffee machine and not clutter around the sink.

hi @herbflavor, we need the slim pantry to the left of the fridge for fridge door clearance. It would be nice to have the space, but the fridge can't be flush against the wall.

I was thinking, if the only wall was the hallway wall and nothing on it, can the island be rotated to face into the dining? Then hallway to dining room traffic would not go through the work aisle. I don’t remember if there was a plan like that.

we did try a couple of scenarios like that, but none seemed to work because of the limited number of walls for the fridge and stove. With the hallway right behind that wall and work isle, maybe everyone can use that instead of crossing the work isle to get to the dining room? just thinking out loud and knowing we have to make some sacrifices

...

I had some down time last night and was looking through the thread. The space with the fridge and range gave me quite a bit of pause, it just felt squished and tight. I read through some advice by buehl re: pantry storage, reviewed some of the drawings by thinkdesignlive, and had another layout that feels a bit better to me. I think this might be it; though feeling like we may never see our cabinet maker/contractor again. Hope everyone is safe and healthy, I try to keep in mind that this is what is most important, health.

Some perspective shots

Hi all! @Buehl @thinkdesignlive i couldn't sleep last night after I had this image of one of my kids running into the kitchen as my husband (who is the more frequent cook in our house) was taking a large pot of boiling pasta water to the sink to drain... :( I couldn't get the image out of my head and obsessed about all of the advice you had posted for me above. Just wanted to thank you for pointing the challenges of our island plan. I worked on yet another one; i realize I'm asking so much of you. If quarantine has you with any free time to burn, please tell me if this is better

So did you rule out the last one I did - you didn't like closing off that one opening? Stepping back - I actually prefer the one you did 17 days ago IF you add a small prep sink in the island (that would ease your fear of pasta water). And in that layout I would definitely make the bay a cozy built in bench with storage below. It's the perfect spot for someone to hang out with the cook but not be in their way and doesn't try to cram seating at the island (not realistic). The very last one you did is not realistic for the bay area in terms of actual seating space/getting in and out - unless you have a 12" round table (a dinner plate for 1 :). And it's my least favorite architecturally for your space. So, in summary, I prefer the layout from 17 days ago with the comments I made herein. That gives you a functional working kitchen but with no family dining in the space. The last layout I did - albeit quirky- closing off that walkway does give you a functional working kitchen and family dining. So, it really depends on what your overall goals are as a family and how you like to be/cook/together/or not. Glad to hear you are all healthy!

hi! no, closing in that entry doesn't quite make sense for us. We're in and out of the back door and into the kitchen a lot.

Just to add some color, the last layout doesn't reduce or encroach into the footprint of the breakfast nook. I'll put up some photos of the space as it is right now with a 40" round table; the current set-up and where we eat, and then as a 40"x48.5" oval (when the leaf is added).

I love your suggestion of a cozy bench! The cabinet maker made us a bench and built-ins in our old home that we LOVED. I just have to figure out where there will be enough counter space for a coffe machine, an espresso machine, and a blender.

hmmm ok Ive kind of lost the details on this - sorry. And I see you did a layout about 21 days ago that I didn't review. I have puppy brain on top of quarantine brain (we are fostering 4 - 5 week old puppies!)

I'm looking at the plan you did 21 days ago and wondering if in that plan you put your main sink and dishwasher and small pull out trash in the island and the range where you are showing the sink (see image herein). That would open up counter space next to the fridge for all those appliances you mention. Then the bay is a window seat or open with just 12" deep shelves to give more room for stools at the island. I would not put the range in the bay. I dunno - I'm kinda spent lately so this may be reaching too much. I wonder if you reach out to a KD in your area - one that works with your woodworker - and pay them a consultation fee to review this thread and guide you. Sometimes we go round and round too much and just get dizzy. We've probably solved it and just don't know it yet :)

Karvelas Kitchen · More Info

@thinkdesignlive puppies!! yay- photos? What breed are they?

I think you're right; i'm sure we've found the right solution. I've reached out to a few KDs; two already responded that they only work with specific lines :( I'm awaiting response from another.

They are shepherd lab mix about 6 wks old. All girls. So sweet. Let us know where you land with the kitchen layout!

@thinkdesignlive swoon!!!!

all, it has been a couple of months, but thought I would update this post, and those who helped contribute! We are starting on the kitchen remodel, and our cabinet maker is building our boxes as we speak. Here is our new layout

and some cabinet elevations

We've picked two beautiful slabs of granite (silver grey honed) and are now looking for tile (backsplash) and hardware.

Forgot to mention- cabinets will be painted Capitol White, by Benjamin Moore