April, I love your thoughts and think they fit this discussion perfectly! There are so many rabbit trails to go down when it comes to this subject, and I guess it all harkens back to why the human species behaves as it does. I think it's fascinating.

Thank you IdaClaire..I was wondering whether I'm on track))

roarah, funny because I was going to post earlier about my daughter and her friends (early 20s) ... they sound exactly like the younger girls you’re describing. Not so obsessed with appearance. Most of them aren’t even on social media. I wonder if the influencer and social media peer pressure has backfired, or is at least slowing down to a better balance. :)

I've been to RuPauls DragCons II & III, and most of the people attending were women. I saw Elvira there as well, as she walk right past me. In one interview, Elvira said that everything she knows about fashion and makeup she learned from drag queens.

I also remember the "natural look" being popular in the 1970s, and I think it made life easier and simpler but less lucrative for the make-up industry. I also know women today who do not wear make-up.

I use Oil of Olay and am pretty much going about aging naturally. Just call me granny!! I don’t dwell on appearance much but I think I look okay. Those who have met me may think otherwise.

Ya, the eyelashes have gone off the deep end IMHO. I think the Internet/social media fuels herd mentally more than it might have been back in the day.

'Beauty' magazines & blogs, etc. are basically made to sell stuff. Always have been, I believe.

This line from 'Everybody's Free To Wear Sunscreen' really made a deep impression on me. Too bad it came out after I went through my teens & 20s, when I could've used the advice.:

"Don't read beauty magazines; they will just make you feel ugly."

The words are from a speech to a graduating class by a woman who was a Chicago Tribune writer. I wish I could recall her name.

I still like to look at fashion magazines, but with a much different attitude than formerly.

& I thought kohl (the black stuff Egyptians wore around their eyes) was an ancient means of protecting the eyes - still in use in some places today.

ETA 'Sunscreen' author is Mary Schmich

https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/chi-schmich-sunscreen-column-column.html

Originally titled 'Advice, like youth, probably just wasted on the young'

Some excerpts & IMO great 'beauty' advice:

Enjoy the power and beauty of your youth. Oh, never mind. You will not understand the power and beauty of your youth until they've faded. But trust me, in 20 years, you'll look back at photos of yourself and recall in a way you can't grasp now how much possibility lay before you and how fabulous you really looked. You are not as fat as you imagine.

Do one thing every day that scares you.

Sing.

Don't be reckless with other people's hearts. Don't put up with people who are reckless with yours.

Floss.

Don't waste your time on jealousy. Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind. The race is long and, in the end, it's only with yourself.

Remember compliments you receive. Forget the insults. If you succeed in doing this, tell me how.
Get plenty of calcium. Be kind to your knees. You'll miss them when they're gone.

Maybe you'll marry, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll have children, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll divorce at 40, maybe you'll dance the funky chicken on your 75th wedding anniversary. Whatever you do, don't congratulate yourself too much, or berate yourself either. Your choices are half chance. So are everybody else's.

Enjoy your body. Use it every way you can. Don't be afraid of it or of what other people think of it. It's the greatest instrument you'll ever own.
Do not read beauty magazines. They will only make you feel ugly.

Get to know your parents. You never know when they'll be gone for good. Be nice to your siblings. They're your best link to your past and the people most likely to stick with you in the future.

Understand that friends come and go, but with a precious few you should hold on. Work hard to bridge the gaps in geography and lifestyle, because the older you get, the more you need the people who knew you when you were young.

Don't mess too much with your hair or by the time you're 40 it will look 85.

Be careful whose advice you buy, but be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth.

But trust me on the sunscreen.

I am from and still live in the rural northeast, and we don’t often see women of any age wearing a full face of make up, I’ve only ever used mascara and eyeliner, just never had any interest in the rest. I also don’t and have never owned a blow dryer, curling iron or the like, I am a hair idiot and keep it long because I have zero skills except bun and ponytail. But, I care a lot about clothing, and ensuring it’s comfortable, appropriate and well-fitting and jewelry, I wear a lot of it, so I did get some of the memos, just not the hair and make up ones. What blows my mind is the extreme body waxing, bleaching and surgical interventions, ahh, below the equator, I just can’t wrap my mind around applying bleach, wax or a *scalpel* to sensitive - and useful - areas and I wonder who raised these women who are so insecure about their bodies that they would consider labiaplasty (for example).

Seems like societies have always and will always define certain standards of beauty and the members push those standar with the idea that they are the only true beauty.

But yes, I find myself feeling this pressure and criticizing my natural appearance against it. Yet I also refuse to be bullied into being someone other than myself by buying into these products. My hair is uncolored though as soon as the grays take over I will start. I wear minimal makeup (typically mascara only) but still yield to that pressure to feel like I must wear something. I have an hourglass figure and feel a great deal of pressure to be thin despite what my metabolism and shape seem inclined to do.

At work I am in a predominantly male field and just last week one of the men was questioning whether many females in my field put effort into our appearance. He didn't seem to care whether the men put in effort. I do put in effort but I refuse to wear clothes or makeup that I don't like or don't fit who I am. I choose to look more natural. Seems like men can make that choice without questions but I can't.

I often think about the double standard for men and women with regard to appearance and aging. No one sees a man without make-up and thinks that he doesn't take care of himself or doesn't take pride in his appearance. A pot belly or love handles might evoke that response, but there's no pervasive pressure for men to look somehow better and more perfect than nature made them. And there is for women. Make-up is so pervasive that it is the women who don't wear it who seem abnormal and out-of-step, and lacking pride in their appearance.

You know how in movies they always pair older men with women 20, 30, or 40 years their junior? It's all part and parcel of the same B.S. Men can be 60 years old and be seen as attractive, and interesting, and a valuable member of society, while women in popular culture become increasingly marginalized starting somewhere around age 30 and accelerating through their 40s and 50s. Keanu Reeves is dating a woman 10 years his junior who happens to have gray hair, and the press coverage makes it sound like she's an older woman. It's crazy.

You know what was very different here -I mean to me as a foreigner?

a) manicure and pedicure.

It's not that many women didn't do it outside of US, but some did, some didn't. I myself didn't(I did for my wedding day, maybe couple other times).

Then I come here-and everybody has it.

After a year or two, you feel naked and somehow inappropriate.

You start going to get manicures/pedicures.

Then you get used to it.

Do I like to get them? No. But years go by-and if you don't go there(even though I'm usually late..I go once a month, when they about to start breaking), you feel like you let yourself down, like you're too sick or something.

Didn't have them for first 30 years of my life and was totally fine with it. It creeps on you

b) teeth. Perfectly straight, perfectly white. OK my son needed braces. My daughter-frankly? didn't. almost perfect teeth. But no, "Mom, everybody gets braces, my teeth are slightly imperfect"..whatever, got tired, pick one's battles. She was really diligent about all the instructions too.

I have horrible teeth, long story..they were less skillful in all that stuff when I was little, they tried and mostly failed. Took years too. Tiring.

Here some dentists, in the very beginning, tried to convince me to put braces. I told them "you know, I'm already used to my teeth, I'll go to the grave with them". I said it very joyfully but they looked at me with a very strange expression, like maybe I'm suicidal. Anyway they left me and my bad teeth alone.

c) not here, but in general-cosmetics, creams etc were hard to get in USSR. Black market-yes. Possible. We didn't have much money for black market.

So, my first eyeliner I saw when they opened Lancome store in Kiev, I think I was 15-16? Immediately bought it too lol. Shadows-I had because my cousin went to live in US, and she sent me eyeshadows. Around same age. Tonal cream-bought when on vacation in Lithuania. In Lithuania they had tonal cream. I was The Girl Who Has The Tonal Cream, all my classmates would use my precious tonal cream. If I knew I'd already buy two..

I abused all of them.

Not to school-we weren't allowed to use much when in school, some would -and then they send you to the bathroom to wash it off..but outside of it.

Started using less when I grew up..

Now I'm grown up))

ETA, ilikefriday, Lizzo is the best.

"and the press coverage makes it sound like she's an older woman. "

That's just wrong on so many levels.

Do we actually feel "pressured" into wearing makeup, etc.? I don't feel that way at all; I just think it's all (makeup, clothes, hair) fun. I have no problem going out makeup-free, and occasionally do but I generally prefer not to. And, I don't judge others who do not share my enthusiasm for such things. I totally get it. Different strokes and all that.

@User

I think every woman who is insecure about her hair color or body or size of her lips or how straight her teeth are or whatever should listen to Lizzo. She has a way of uniting women around the world and teaching how to love who you are. I think she is a beautiful and inspiring woman.

April, your story reminds me of one our tour guide in Budapest shared. She was at university in St. Petersburg, I believe. Came from another part of the country in which there were no food shortages. When she went away to university she said the market shelves were empty and she was actually hungry. She then discovered that the women there loved bright red lipstick so she had her mother send her what she could. She'd walk into a grocery store when she was the only customer and place the lipstick on the counter. The clerk would take it, walk to the back and return with a bag. She wouldn't look inside the bag until she was out of sight of the store. The contents were always a welcome surprise.

April, you should try nail polish strips/wraps. They're real nail polish you stick to your nails in a long strip, then trim them off. They last a week or two, and make it through scrubbing toilets to washing dishes by hand every day.

I like the solid colors but if you like patterns, there are many. You do it yourself and they're super easy to put on.

Ida listed:

Our natural hair color is too mousey.
Our untanned skin tone is pasty.
Our face without makeup is washed out.
Our lashes are too skimpy.
Our eyebrows aren't perfect.

But it's true! Face it, it's not just ourselves who judge our mousey hair and pasty skin, everybody else does too. It's proven we are definitely judged by our appearance the first time we meet somebody. Imagine going to an interview with all of the above.

Young women can get away with it, I did. Au natural and I looked good. Now I have a teeny bald patch in each eyebrow so I have to lightly dust some color in.

I don't think it's vanity at all. We simply want to look nice is all so we don't scare little children. :)

April, good points about mani-pedi's. I also never had a pedicure until my 20's. I just recently had a pedicure over our Christmas holiday break, the first one I've had in probably 10 years! I do go for manicures because my nails and cuticles are normally a mess and even if they are short, they look much better groomed. I just do regular polish maybe twice a month, do gel a few times per year and never do dip or acrylics.

I used false eyelashes for my bridal portraits but ran out of time on my wedding day. Just can't see myself doing these extensions. The tube mascara is a challenge in itself, trying to remove it. But in photos, false eyelashes certainly make your eyes pop.

I do not wear make-up, not do I color my hair. I have done both from time to time in the past, but I just don't anymore. I did like my hair highlighted by the best colorist I have ever found when I lived in PA, but once I moved and quit driving the three hours just to have him do my hair, I quit. I think I "look nice" as I am. I am lucky enough to have great skin, so that helps. I have a couple of grey hairs and would welcome more. I do not take selfies and do not use apps to make them look better-a friend just told me about that and I was flabbergasted to think anyone feels the need to use something like that. I smile and laugh a lot which also helps.

This is not to say others shouldn't do whatever they want to do and I don't mean to sound sanctimonious. I just think, for me, it is a little strange to do all those "fixes" and then bemoan that we do it or are forced into it by society.

The most beautiful people I know are those whose magnificent, gentle, kind, happy souls shine through for all to see. Everyone here seems to be that sort of person, so relax ladies. Live your lives, smile, laugh, love, and have fun. You are worth it!

ETA: I guess what I am asking is why is "our best self" not our natural self? I think it is.

To some extent the desire to be trendy in fashion and appearance varies by region. I’m in a suburb 15 miles NW of Boston, where women tend to be casual in both leisure dress and makeup, and where procedures are not the norm among my social circle and family. Heck, even in Boston women are not known to care much about fashion (dubbed worst dressed city a few years ago.). I see an enormous emphasis on living a healthy lifestyle, physical fitness and activities that engage the brain. There‘s all that, plus the tendency to be quite frugal.

As a mother of three daughters, all young women now, I feel responsible for shaping their perceptions on how they present themselves. Like Lakeeffect, I too often wonder, “who raised these women who are so insecure about their bodies that they would consider labiaplasty (for example)” or any number of other surgeries or procedures that indicate dissatisfaction with their bodies.

I will admit that as an older woman who retired 18 months ago, I have had a fleeting feeling of “being invisible” on a couple of occasions. Was it something I expected after reading about it on social media or was it an authentic feeling? Something to ponder. How much of what we are told to expect as we age is really pertinent in our personal lives/experiences?

ETA: I adore Lizzo and her message,

Random, kinda OT, but manicures and pedicures were not nearly the commodity they are today when I was growing up in the 79s and 80s. They were much more on the fancy side than they are today.

For me, I just don’t like feeling “unkempt.” I don’t care what others do...but I like looking at my hands and seeing pretty nails. I like my “mousy” brown hair highlighted with blonde...it brightens my face and makes my hair cut look more stylish. I love gorgeous shoes, and like seeing cute painted toes & no dead skin on my heels. 😂 I don’t wear a lot of foundation, but yes, my skimpy lashes do need mascara, and I love it. I look AWAKE, lol. I run and now Pelaton😂 and eat healthy bc my body WANTS to be chubby, and darn it all...*I* don’t want to be! I’m happy for Lizzo that she accepts her body, but for me, I don’t feel comfortable if I gain a few pounds. My dh, family and friends would love me no matter what but I wouldn’t be happy. I don’t blame society, it’s on me. I am literally going to the dermatologist for my first Botox next week and it actually feels empowering!

Oh, and as far as things being worse now than in the past....please. Technology is better now, so more available to do...but I watch Marvelous Mrs Maisel and Midge’s beauty routine and foundation garments look exhausting!! Those 50’s women had it much more difficult than we do.

"Do you ever just stop and really think about cultural beauty norms that
we all buy into to some extent? Do you ever feel duped and just sick of
the bombardment that has convinced us there's a standard we should keep
striving for, even if it means we spend a lot of time and effort and
money to change our appearance to make ourselves somehow more
acceptable?

Um, yes and I have for years and years. I quit wearing makeup years ago, I would never shave my private parts, my hair has been its natural color since I was in my 30's (I used to bleach/frost it). I don't worry about the length or color of my lashes. Or any of the other 10,000 things women try to "correct" about themselves. I am reminded of reading National Geographic as a child and wondering how some cultures thought certain things were "beauty enhancing" when I found them so strange and even painful or ugly. That's what I see with much of what women do to themselves in our culture.

I have frequently posted this point of view and have been seriously attacked here for even bringing it up, so I'm finding this a fascinating post.

While I would like to look stunning doing little, the extra care is needed as I age just to not look like one of the walking dead, much less stunning. I am, however, a "comfortable" when defining style and fake eyelashes sound unpleasant. So do spray tans!

Olychick,

I am right there with you. I haven't worn makeup in forever. My hair is usually in a ponytail. I'm clean, my clothes are clean, and I frankly just don't care what other people think about my appearance.

I will also say that when I quit doing my hair and makeup before work, I have a lot of time to spend on myself otherwise in the morning. I read. I work out. I garden. I might even watch some Youtube videos.

And guess what? I don't really care about other people's appearances either. As long as there is good hygiene, I'm good. I just look at it like different strokes for different folks, and it's just not my thing.

Nini, I am not sure how not coloring our hair, not getting professional manicures or pedicures (I do file my own), or not wearing make-up makes those who don't "unkempt." Natural does not mean dirty or messy or unkempt.

Well sometimes I love myself and sometimes I don't. There is good I love and not so good I don't. "love yourself" is also a cultural norm of sorts. To a degree, of course. And it's not exactly my cultural norm. The more I think about it. It's not neccessarily more vantage point of view, not neccessarily more correct-it's just different.

Why should I love something that can be better? I'm not talking about appearance. I'm talking about self-acceptance of different traits. Some things, I accept, some, I work on. Some I accept gladly but for the sake of others-I keep them on a leash. Am I right? I don't know. Experience tells me I am.

Just as norms of beauty are different, so are others. It's culture-dependent too.

Actually the most important thing is to even have a sense of self. Seems to me..

To loose it is very scary. If I have it-. I'm very appreciative of it. Then I can tackle other stuff. Maybe.

Again, remind me if it's OT since to me I'm on topic but my mind wanders.

okay back to appearances..I do have a short haircut and at some point started coloring hair,, it's a routine that makes me happier. Even though it's tiring too-getting there, sitting there..half a day gone.

But then I just do nothing with my hair until next haircut, except wash it of course. I never had a long hair anyway. The longer I had it was to my shoulders.

When I first arrived home with this pixie cut my boyfriend was mad as hell and told me I looked like a bald chicken.(then he got used to). But that bald chicken look somehow felt right and was very convenient. So with some exeptions, during all these years I continue to be a bald chicken.

I read a lot of musings how women are supposed to have long hair(and plenty other things). I think- One's supposed to be a decent person. In his own unique way)) Just decent.

Today read smth like "most actresses don't pass even my most basic beauty test-legs, hair, teeth.." ..okay..chances are we're not gonna have much in common anyway. Actresses wouldn't be too upset either lol.

(I do have a khaki trench, felt in love in it, bought it on huge sale in Saks, 10 years ago. That's OT-that's because of another thread, IdaClaire..I'm just also deciding whether to pack it or not)

Cyn, I was just talking about me. *I* feel unkempt when my hair & nails aren’t done. For me. I certainly never pass judgment or apply that word to others. I fully understand and appreciate that everyone has different feelings about what makes them happy.

I had a manicure once, for a special occasion (not my wedding), and didn’t like the feeling of polish on my nails so I never did it again. I’ve never had a pedi. I was told, by an acquaintance, that I had no business wearing open toes sandals if I didn’t have my toe nails painted! Ok, crazy lady, you do you and don’t worry about me. And stop looking at my feet, you freak.

For forty+ years, I wore mascara and eyeliner, and felt so bland without it. For various reasons I stopped wearing it. Some days I think my eyes, and face, did look better when I wore it but why do I think that? Is it true? Am I just conditioned by society and advertising to think that? So far, its been 2 years without wearing it and the world still revolves, my husband and family still love me, life goes on...but maybe I would look fresher, more alert, dare I say more attractive wearing it? Meh, so far, I can’t be bothered to buy a fresh tube and the remover products.

I do pencil in my eyebrows because I think it gives definition to my face. Humans have eyebrows framing their face and my scant, light colored brows really do wash out my face.

So I am a contradiction - eyebrows yes, eyelashes no.

I have colored my hair forever so I have no idea if there are any grays. I don‘t have an exit strategy for coloring, I love the color so I’ll maintain it for the foreseeable future.

I don‘t have an exit strategy for coloring, - hherino

That's funny,. Neither do i. :)

I feel better when I'm thinner.

This has been a really interesting discussion, and I thank all who participated. It's clear that we are all "in our own places" in regard to our thoughts and feelings about societal norms when it comes to appearance, and that's perfectly ok. I think we probably all have the inherent tendency to believe that however WE are doing it is the preferable way, and it's all too easy to try to transfer "our ways" onto others. In that light, part of me wants to recommend to everyone that they stop, for instance, coloring their hair and just be who they were "meant to be", but even that thought is ridiculous, as I only stopped coloring my own hair about a year ago, after a LIFETIME of doing so, and believing I was destined to forever be a certain shade of blonde.

I suppose the bottom line is that if it makes us feel better about ourselves, then why the hell shouldn't we indulge in it. I think what I've really been trying to get at, though, is exploring WHY it makes us feel better about ourselves. As several of you have stated, we are conditioned to believe certain things about ourselves. The comments above about us calling our hair "mousy" or our skin "pasty" coming from the fact that it IS those things still makes me question. Is it? Or do we simply believe it to be so, because that's what we've been conditioned over time to think is true? And why is "mousy" bad? Why is a "mousy" brown frowned upon while a "chestnut" brown to be coveted? Does the "mouse" include strands of gray, and if so, is it just another means by which we push aside thoughts of aging?

I don't know. I really don't know much for SURE about any of this, but it's been on my mind and will continue to be on my mind, I'm sure. You see, even at this stage of my life I feel I am still exploring and learning what my "true self" looks like and how I care to present that to the rest of the world. It's absolutely an evolution, and one that (to me) has at times spoken to inner growth and change and not simply outward appearances.

The video I shared above prompted me to go down yet another rabbit trail, and I've found myself fascinated over discussions of the "Instagram eyebrow." I had truly started to lean towards thinking that we're "supposed" to style our browns a certain way, and even tried to recreate that "Instagram look" on my own. It didn't pan out well, and I felt a bit freaky darkening my own naturally-dark-blonde brows and extending them past where they naturally grow. After actually hearing a makeup artist say that it's perfectly FINE to wear your own brows, and if they are straight just let them be straight for the love of gawd, I finally - FINALLY got it. If I don't have a pronounced arch, it's silly to try to create one. I know it seems absolutely ridiculous to have had a minor epiphany over this, but there you have it. My browns are NOT "Instagram worthy", they're not "on fleek" (thank the heavens), and they don't have to be. They're perfect exactly as they are, in all of their IMperfection, for my face.

I do get regular manicures as I like the look of polished nails. I like choosing a color that is reflective of my current mood, and I like looking down at my hands and see my nails like little "jewels" at the ends of my fingers. I did not pay attention to my hands for many years, but decided not too long ago that it's something I like to do for myself, and I'm going to keep doing it for myself. I do not, however, get pedicures. Can't stand people touching my feet.

Luckily, yoga-type clothing and a ball cap after working out is in, and I wear it most days, all day, unless, I have dinner or out somewhere in the evening, during the week. I wear less makeup now. I only wear moisturizer, mascara and a swoop of "Milk" blush across my nose and lips and lip balm. I do like to dress up, but mostly either a Friday or Saturday night, and church on Sunday. As far as jewelry, I wear my wedding ring and my standard diamond studs and that's it.

I've gotten botox for a few years now, and get my upper lip and brows waxed probably once a month. I love highlights/lowlights on my "mousey" blonde hair, and have been doing that for years. I don't think I'm going to have the pretty gray hair some are lucky to have, so I will probably have to highlight forever.

I am planning on getting eyelid surgery (blepharoplasty) this year. I have always had hooded eyes and, although I loved them when I was younger, the aging is messing with my eye makeup now LOL.

Here are my thoughts. People divide up into a few camps.

Camp 1: All natural, basic haircut, no hair color and no make-up. I am assuming these people do not take other people’s opinion into account and might also frown upon the ones who do.

Camp 2: High maintenance with skin and hair and make-up. This person cares about what others think about their appearance but also feel better about themselves when they look in the mirror when they keep up a regime.

Camp 3: Somewhere in between. Sometimes use make-up, might or not color hair but will get stylist cuts.

To answer your question, “why do we say these things” the answer for me is not everyone does.

I agree -- not everyone says these things. But I think probably a majority of women DO, at some point in their lives. A lifetime of being barraged with products has had an affect, to some extent, on many of us. That "mousy hair" and "pasty skin" are even such prevalent phrases tells me that countless buy into the notion that these things ARE as they're said to be.

Sometimes it's the little things, stuff where you get a lot of bang for the buck.

Not picking on hhireno, because I agree with much she says. Take her eyebrows. :) I find eyebrows to be a lovely and expressive thing. Given the ravages of time, I'm often surprised that my eyebrows have decided to stick around. I have a friend who has next to none and spends quite a bit of time each morning penciling in what appear to be natural brows. Other than that she doesn't wear much makeup at all. She does it for herself and I get it.

I have long thick lashes thanks to the magic of Latisse. Talk about bang for the buck! I don't need mascara for everyday, but once or twice a week I put some on because it makes me feel finished. I have had zero comments on my decision to wear mascara or not on any particular day.

Most days, if not every day, I wear a bit of foundation, blush, concealer, and eye liner (pencil). Takes me about 5 minutes. If I want to try harder, eyeshadow and mascara plus brow touchup.

I do it for me. Some days I feel okay about my appearance, others I do not. Old hangups live on. I don't care if you look at or touch my feet. :)

I feel that a lot of 'beauty' marketing works best on younger women and girls who often feel unsure of themselves, and once they become indoctrinated to that mindset, it can carry on throughout the rest of their lives. I see so many young women and girls wearing the most makeup - practically masks of paint, giant false eyelashes - and they're the ones who need such enhancements the least!

It's only human to want to be accepted in the group you associate with, and if that group is gung-ho on coloring, mani/pedis, makeovers, and maybe the latest magical beauty treatments, then it's natural to adopt the same.

Old hangups live on.

Ain't that the truth! When I was my 12, my aunt took me into the bathroom at a family gathering and shaved my full brows into much thinner versions of themselves. She was a relative youngster herself, but even so she should've given a thought to the message that sent to a girl who was not even quite a teen yet. My father was furious that she'd done that to me, and I just remember being left with the clear impression that something about my appearance was "not quite right" to someone I looked up to.

When I was around 13, I was standing in the chow line at church summer camp, and a boy named Brian was in line ahead of me. At one point as we waited, he turned to me and took a good, long look. Then he said, "Y'know, I could stick a BB gun up your nose and fire straight into those giant nostrils of yours." Um, wow. Yeah ... wow. Aside from the fact that it was a truly bizarre thing to say, I walked away from that encounter feeling like my nose was freakishly big.

I remember being around 20 years old, living in southeast Asia, and having a photo taken of me by my then-spouse as I lounged in bed reading a magazine. I had very short hair, it was hot and humid so I had on minimal clothing, and not a stitch of makeup, and just looked like ME. Fast forward to my late 20s, and a male friend was at my apartment glancing through some of my old photo albums. He came across that particular photo of me and I will never forget how he recoiled and said, "Ew, GROSS!" At the time he was closeted and dealing with a lot of issues of his own, but those two he words he uttered in regards to a photo of me in my natural state stung me like you wouldn't believe. To this day, I still have flashbacks of how belittled and insulted I felt at the time.

These things stay with some of us for a very long time, and while we usually do manage to rise above and carry on with our heads held high, the hurtful events (no matter how slight they may seem to someone on the outside looking in) can leave far-reaching and long-lasting unfortunate marks.

Like Olliesmom, I'm the "athletic look" girl. I have never worn much makeup, even when I had a "big job". I hardly wore makeup for my wedding. I don't really like the way foundation, etc feels on my skin and whenever I've tried to up my makeup game I feel like I'm impersonating someone else. Over the years I've gotten used to myself;). I used to feel like I should just try harder, but I just don't care enough. I would really like to cut my hair short, but I think in that instance, I would feel the need to wear more makeup so I won't cut my hair! I have pretty good skin, thick brows (which I never plucked when thin brows were in style) and that will have to do! I had a few friends in my 20s who would not ever leave the house without full makeup and that made an impression. I don't want to be a prisoner to that makeup routine. I also feel that a lot of makeup does not look as good on aging skin.

Don't you think a girl's mom - or the influential female during her formative years - has something to do with this as well? My mother has always been a makeup and manicure and fashion person. If she had a no makeup 'au naturel' attitude, I think I would've followed that path.

I think that probably has something to do with it, Carol. My mother has also always had an interest in makeup and fashion. She has been the one to actually introduce me to a couple of products I've just recently started using (like shampoo bars). I do think I've taken a lot of my cues from her. She is also the one who loaned me her book about allowing one's hair to go gray, so that was yet another positive vote for me to embrace my natural color. I think if I had a mom who was still coloring her hair, I might feel more inclined to keep it up myself. (Although I'm presently thinking of a different 80-year old who bleaches what must surely be white hair to a yellowish blonde, and I'm thinking - that ain't foolin' ANYBODY. But hey, if it makes her feel good, it's ONLY color after all.)

You could drive a taxi through either of my nostrils.

LOL, Bunny!

I think you are asking the essential question, Ida: WHY do we do this, WHY do we think we look "better"? I used to think how I looked wasn't up to some "standard" - it was really a cultural standard, pushed (and pushed and pushed) by those standing to gain from our insecurities and separating us from our $$$. I think this could go into a very deep discussion of feminist issues, but this probably isn't the place for that. Like why does our culture keep trying to make women feeling insecure, things like why a beauty standard for shoes (high heels), renders women pretty much incapable of fleeing, if needed, as well as ruining their feet - modern day foot binding - for the sake of "shapely calves!!

It really makes me sad to think that from the time we are little girls, people are commenting/criticizing our appearance. And that we let some baffoon of a boy (because of his own insecurities) claim power over us by insulting us. Why should we even CARE what he thinks or says? My response (sometimes verbal, sometimes internal): tell it to someone who cares what you think.

I also think about what women could do with their time, energy, money and more if the obsession over looks and behavior were eliminated. Sometimes the sheer number of threads here asking about or commenting about methods or products that women discuss which are focused on our looks kind of boggles me. I've stopped commenting on them because I can't ever contribute anything but a plea to think about why we are obsessing over these things.

We can, and do have many more interesting things to focus on and share as women.

For those who mentioned exit strategy for coloring hair-that made me laugh. I am currently avidly reading three ( out of a million) fb pages about ditching the dye. My Mom colored til 92! I am 62 and all of a sudden got the urge to stop. While it is so fun and encouraging to have all these support type groups, why is it such a major trauma in life to quit coloring your hair?! I have white growing in, and long dark hair so I am going to look goofy for some time but for some reason I don't care about that any more. But I admit I am inclined to up my makeup game at the same time to counterbalance. Haha. The fascinating thing I have seen is that most ladies, of all ages, looked better with their natural hair color!! Mother Nature does a good job. I feel like I missed seeing all my stages of color over the years.

Jojo (hugs)

Jojo - I hope the procedure for you is successful and I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this. I hope you have gorgeous hair as a reward for what you're going through.

I agree with ^^^ this, jojoco. I wish you all the very best!

Jojo, wishing you the best outcome with your procedure.

Thanks you guys, but I’m not doing this until probably January when it will slow down at work for me. You can shower me with good wishes then .😀

Hope all goes well for you Jojoco. I 'm sure you could rock a wig, a scarf or nothing at all! You have a certain je ne sais quoi.

Apologies for not catching up on prior posts on this thread. We are organisms wired for survival, which includes a bias in favor of fertility. Any feature of appearance that telegraphs fertility is naturally attractive. That equates to favoring all the markers of youth, health and symmetry.

There are ample studies showing this bias exists. We can actively chose to overcome it, but some are not even aware of it and some don't see any reason to strive beyond these innate preferences that serve no real purpose today.

Therefore, the status quo is that markers of youth, health and symmetry will, at least on the margin, make us more desirable, more powerful and better respected. Moreover, the ability to look young and healthy now also correlates with wealth so it is yet more one element of semaphore that impacts how we are treated by others.

We can try to take advantage of this, for any number of reasons, or decide it is not worth it.