Very puzzling. What temperatures are you keeping them at?

Bottom heat at around 69-70 but thermostat is probably defected and sometimes it turns off once it reaches set temperature and sometimes doesn’t. Basement should be around 50-60 degrees. I have my cuttings covered by a clear plastic bin upside down on it. So there is a lot of humidity.

Is the temperature sensor inserted into the soil of one of the pots?

I am sort of the last person to ask but I stumbled upon this thread and had a free moment.

When I built a little propagation unit, I used a plastic tote box of the type found at walmart et al for storing laundry. It has bottom heat under a layer of sand - with a thermostat, stuck in one of the pots which were styrofoam coffee cups. Moisture source was a USB powered ultrasonic humidifier, and air movement was provided by a tiny 5V computer fan! I got it the humidifer on amazon cheap, maybe 15-20 bucks. It's the type that uses a plastic soda bottle as a reservoir. In my garage, in winter, with the top sealed, the air temp varied around 55F to 65F, soil temp, IIRC, was set to 70F. NO algal or fungal growth other than a touch on the soil surface after several weeks. All hollies rooted...other things did not. (rhodies and a camellia) So I wonder if the active misting and condensation on the leaf surfaces meant that spores got washed down before they could germinate?

So I guess I'm saying I think you are a little too warm and a little to closed up!?

Never did it again...a bit of a hassle, I leave the propagation to the experts! (currently fretting over a batch of various very rare seeds that is not germinating as expected: this was the last year I said I would ever mess with seeds) But I rooted some very rare hollies, like an attenuata X altaclerensis hybrid, and attenuata 'Bienville Gold', which I suspect is going to be 'golder' in berry than 'Longwood Gold'.

BTW I sterilized with a quick dunk in 0,5% bleach and IIRC, a few drops of laureth-3 as a surfactant. And the garage is south facing so plenty of light thru a window; but shielded by the LDPE (probably) tote.

Just looking at your picture Heruga, those Taxus look a little 'cooked'. How? I have no idea. Maybe your heat thermostat is haywire?

It might be just a bad year for Taxus. Dunno.

The Dirr manual of woody plant propagation suggests using a drench of fungicide at sticking time and them again every week after that. But I don't think that will help if your heat mat is going erratically wild.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Bill

Doesn’t bleach harm the plants? I know you can use it to clean objects but directly on plants?

I do have a heat sensor on a pot with no cuttings in it. When I feel the heat pad it doesn’t seem too hot to me. Also my juniper is growing small speckles of something that looks like mold as well. My chamaecyparis seems to be fine so far.

Nope it is standard practice, googling "bleach cuttings" found this: https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-home/214036-how-do-you-use-bleach-on-cuttings

of course that person is defining concentration as a layman would, I am defining it as someone who minored in chemistry would ;-) but it is the same concentration basically.

Kathy Van Veen told me to use either 1/10 dilution household bleach or Physan...she used the latter. The couple of old rhododendron geezers I used to know in the northeast used bleach. It's not going to penetrate into the cuttings with a quick dunk of a few seconds, and even if it did, a little bit, green leaves and plant tissue have plenty of reductive capacity.

BTW...OT but...someone FAR more skilled in germinating seeds that I am, wasn't able to germinating any of the rare seeds either. I sent about 30% of them to him. So moral of the story, think twice before spending over $100 on seeds from a certain European seed seller with a slick website who promises to have rarities from around the world.

final BTW - some household bleaches are now up to something like 8% NaOCl vs. the old standard for decades that was 6%...so adjust according. (And in Europe it is harder to find and yet a different concentration, of course)

just a couple ideas ....

good on trying to start 'clean' ...

second.. its not too late to try a second pot ...

third... its raining in your pic ... open the tops of your bag/plastic ... perhaps if you see the humidity.. its too much ... if your basement is that cold.. there is probably already ambient humidity ... i gauged water in the pot by weight ...

confers are trees... in general.. trees are very hard to root ... and that is a primary reason.. imo ... that they are so expensive ... if they did root freely ... the cost would fall ... its one reason the typical DAS ... are so common ... they can root them ... [dwarf alberta spruce] .. it is not a piece of cake ... and here.. you might have the only 2 - 3 non professionals who can do it... lol ...

get a standard old fashion thermometer at the dollar store ... bleach it.. and stick it in your bag.. use your own eyes to see temp .... sometimes we rely on gizmos too much ...

if you have it mostly enclosed... you might not need to have the pot actually touching the heat mat .. so if you elevate them off it ... the enclosure will still warm ... like a piece of styrofoam ... or some such ... you need ambient warmth ... not cooking of the bottom of the pot as noted ... that might be why.. above.. someone mention sand ...

ken

I’m pretty sure it’s mold

Check by looking at them with a magnifier.

I’ve heard somewhere that you would dump bleach on a plant you wanted to kill and it would kill it. So I’m guessing that wouldn’t work?

Ken, is 50-60 degrees ambient air considered cold for cutting? I thought it can’t be any higher than that. I don’t do anything for the humidity either, I just soaked the pots and covered it with a plastic bin. How do I even control the humidity? I moved out of this house couple months ago and I only come back like 3 times a week to check it so I can’t ventilate it everyday.

As for the bottom heat, right now I have saran Wrap covering the heat mat and my pots are directly on that. Does that count? The sensor still reads like 69F. If I put something thicker underneath, like you say a styrofoam, wouldn’t my pots not be getting the ideal temperature of 70F? Unless I set the temperature on the sensor to 75F so that even with the object underneath, the pots would still be at 70 F. If 70F is too hot, why do most growers recommend that bottom heat temperature? Unless they mean set it at 70 F but do not let the pots get that hot, which none has ever indicated.

I don't know if this helps Heruga, but I set my heat sensor 1" from the bottom of the pot. Running horizontal to the bottom.

If the sensor is too close to the heat mat, it will heat up too fast, causing it to turn on and off almost constantly.

When the sensor is 1" above the heat mat, the mat will stay on longer, until the heat is great enough so the sensor 'feels it' and shuts off.

I've never timed it but mine goes on and off every 30-45 minutes?

I set mine for 68dF because that's as low as it will go but it will alternate between 70d and 67d. but that's okay, if it stays within that 3 degrees, it's nbd. :-)

My heat sensor is in a pot with the same media my cuttings are in but with no cuttings in it. It is probably pushed in 1/2 of the depth of the media in a 3.5 in square pot. Should I really have it go down an inch above the bottom?

Also I see you are using bags. Do you use any sticks to hold the bag from touching your cuttings? I find this to be such a nuisance so I just gave up on bags and just covered all my cuttings with a clear plastic tote. Minus the one pot that couldn’t fit, which is in a plastic bag that’s constantly touching my cuttings

Is the pot with the sensor in a pot that's under the tote?

If the sensor is in a pot that's outside the tote, you may not be getting a true reading of what the temp is under the tote. That tote will hold a lot of heat, more so than a plastic bag.

Make sure the sensor is in a thin plastic pot, not heavy plastic or ceramic or anything like that or the mat maybe heating everything up hotter than what the sensor is showing.

The higher the sensor is in the media, the longer the mat has to run before the sensor 'knows' it's time to turn off. This can cause excessive heat in the lower part of the media.

Cuttings touching the sides of the bag: I inflate the bags so there's a lot of room inside but still have cuttings touching the sides with no noticeable issues.

The reason for the high humidity is so the plant can live without roots until it can produce new ones.

Mold is just a nuisance. You just have to hold your ground and fight it off, for the next 4-5 months. ;^)

Oh yes that’s right... that pot isn’t under the tote. So maybe it is actually getting cooked. I probably have to find an alternative to cover my cuttings instead of a tote. But bags never work because even though I blow air in it and tie it and initially it looks like it has enough air inside looking like a balloon, somehow the air gets out(of water droplets too heavy) and the bag drops right on the cuttings.

" that pot isn’t under the tote. So maybe it is actually getting cooked "

Bingo! :-)

All the heat, rising up from the mat, is filling the tote to higher temps than is healthy for the plants.

As mentioned, it's still early, I didn't start my cuttings until Jan 20 a couple years ago and Feb 12 last year, so if you want to try again, it's nbd. Otherwise use the plants you have potted already if they don't look too bad.

Try using the tote right side up. Put the bottom of the tote on the mat and put the pots in the tote (no bags). Use one of the pots that's in the tote to set the sensor in, 1" from the bottom (thin pot). Keep things well watered. A wet (<1/4") inside bottom of the tote is nothing to worry about.

As mentioned, get a cheap plastic thermometer and keep it inside the tote.

Cover the tote with either the lid or plastic sheet. That will be so much easier to keep an eye on. You can lift the lid a couple times a week, check on things and if you see mold you can spray it down, replace the lid and walk away. Easy peasy.

Do not let the inside of the tote to dry out, add a cup or two of water as necessary. Remember, high humidity keeps the plants turgid. A turgid plant is a happy plant. :-)

So I did what you guys suggested. I got hydrogen peroxide, sprayed all my cuttings with 10:1 solution. I also bought a thermometer at a dollar store(sprayed physan20 on it before putting in bin) and when I came back 20 min later it was a whooping 65 degrees in there. I lowered the bottom heat a little to 70F(had it 75F initially since I thought the bottom of the bin would block the heat a little). I also put the pot with the sensor in a plastic tupperware and covered with saran wrap and the lid. One problem I found today was that when I pour water directly on the pots, the media becomes so loose that the cuttings move around so easily. Even if I packed it extremely hard before, the water loosens everything up. So I had to repack everything after watering. I hope I can find a solution for this.

Don't water the pots. That will take care of that problem. :-)

eta: Just make sure there is some water in the bottom of the tote at all times and you'll be fine.

Yeah when I am doign cuttings I basically do mist only until they root. I found hose-end misters designed to use to stay cool by the pool for about $3 each and I would run those for an hour or so each day. If you are using rooting hormone you especially don't want to water as that just washes it all off.

And if the OP is keeping humidity very high inside the tote, there is no need to water.

You have to add water occasionally inside the tote bc if things aren't perfectly 'air tight' the water will 'vanish' over time.

Ah damn. Maybe that’s why none of my cuttings didn’t even have the slightest sign of roots even though it stayed green for 4 months. Maybe I think I should start new ones...

Bill, the top layer of the media was already dry after a week even though humidity was so high inside the tote. When it’s in a small, condensed bag it actually allows the media to stay wet but in a tote it doesn’t stay that way. So I did pour a little bit of water on the bottom so the pots could stay wet and also provide constant humidity like you said.

'Maybe I think I should start new ones...'

Yes, you should start new ones, it's not too late.

'the top layer of the media was already dry after a week even though humidity was so high inside the tote'

That's impossible. High humidity will keep everything inside the tote from drying out, even the media. If you can't tell, you might have to get a hygrometer somewhere.

You need to check inside the tote more often than every week, every couple days is better, to insure there's enough water in the bottom to keep the humidity high. The bottom needs to be at least wet or water standing (1/4"?).

This also all hinges on the temperature you are keeping the tote at. You won't get high humidity if the bottom temps are too low, 68-70d F is what to shoot for.

I don't understand why you have the heat sensor outside the tote in a different pot?

Make sure the lid is tight and don't take the cover off all the time, this will diminish the RH inside the tote and cause your water to disappear faster. If the lid isn't tight, then use plastic wrap or the like to maintain an almost 'air tight' chamber.

Keeping the RH high and temperature correct is key to success.

It's really very simple.

Well it certainly was dry when I poked my finger in as deep as I can. It’s a mixture of play sand and perlite.

The tote is completely full with the other cuttings so the pot with the heat sensor has to go somewhere else.

I checked today and The temperature inside the tote doesn’t ever seem to go below 65 even when I made a couple adjustments. The basement temperature itself is a little too warm it seems but there’s really nothing I can do about it because theres nothing to adjust temps in there and my dad won’t let me open the windows to cool the basement more. I guess you really need the right facility and setup in doing this and without it it’s always going to be difficult

I guess I don't know then, Heruga.

I've exhausted my vast store of knowledge I've acquired from rooting cuttings over the last few years. lol :-)

It's difficult to see exactly what's happening from my lap top halfway across the country but I thought I'd try to help anyways.

I wish you all the Good Luck and success on your ventures but I just don't have anything else to add to what has already been said.

Maybe someday, if I'm in your neck of the woods, I can stop in and take a look! haha!

:-)

You gave me plenty of good advice already. Now its just comes to how I do it, which I will try to figure out. Worst case I might just give up winter cutting propagation and do conifer cuttings during the growing season. I know winter is the most ideal time to take cuttings when they are dormant but I just don't have the right facility to execute this. I heard they root faster during the growing season but just more difficult to keep it alive in the winter.

Some people in warmer climes start cuttings in an unheated structure outside, so things stay cool. This has to be when temperatures stay above freezing in a garage or whatever.

I can't do that bc it stays just too cold, too late in the season here.

Just an idea.

🙄🤔🥺😥🙄😑☺️😄🙄🤔🥺🔮

Well my climate is definitely warmer than yours but probably not warm enough to start cuttings in March(March probably the latest you can start winter cuttings I assume) as we can still have freezing temperatures until early April. I've heard guys rooting cephalotaxus that was started in July by simply sticking it in a berm of compost and some other ingredient which I forgot. If all fails I am going to give late spring/early summer cuttings a shot

Yup, go for it!

If one thing doesn't work, best try something else. 🤞

Hey Bill, do you also sanitize your media and pots for conifers that you attempt to grow by seed? Is it pretty important to do so?

Yes and Yes.

Yeah, I learned this the hard way over the last month. I had hundreds of Cedrus Deodara seeds that were viable and pushing out radicals after just a few weeks of stratification. So I mixed up some peet and perlite 50/50 and potted them up. I had so many good seeds though and plenty of used potting mix left over from last year. So I figured I’d use that for some of the seeds to save my new stuff for cuttings. Well apparently bugs had laid eggs in the old potting mix and I noticed that only the seeds in that mix were dying. I thought they were damping off, but when I pulled the dying seedlings out they all had some tiny worm like larvae eating the radical. I think I lost about 40. Lesson learned.

Has anyone here ever rooted witches broom cuttings of long leaf pine?

' they all had some tiny worm like larvae eating the radical '

Possibly Fungus Gnat larvae?

Was there small flies circling the air above the mix?

Yes, they almost looked like mosquitoes. Do I need to worry that they may have reproduced again and have now infected the good soil?

I had fungus gnats to a lesser extent last year. If you see what looks almost like tiny 'Fruit flys', not the greatest at flying, circling around the plants, or in the windows, when you're working there.

Last year I could only find the standard 'fly paper' ribbons and hung them along the sides of my trays by the window, messy stuff to avoid when working with but after a week, I had at least a hundred of the tiny flys stuck to the FP.

I'll need to do more research this year bc there are treatments for them.

I had so many good seeds though and plenty of used potting mix left over from last year. So I figured I’d use that for some of the seeds to save my new stuff for cuttings.

==>>> you should have sterilized it .. i would have used the microwave

ken

scroll down and note the first TIP ...

https://tipnut.com/sterilize-soil/

And to directly answer your question Jacob.

Yes, I think you can get Fungus Gnats even if you sterilize your soil ahead of time But most likely, you will not get them in the high numbers, at least not right away, than you will with soil that's already full of the ingredients that the gnats flourish under.

Ken, microwaving will get rid of fungus and pathogens too?

Took my pail of sand and washed it under running water for half an hour, just to remove any organic matter and silt that was in it (lots of dead pine needles I could see). Now it's back in the oven for half an hour for sterilization.

Thanks ken!

Over two months with plants under the lights and the Fungus gnats haven't made much of a show. I've seen one or two flying around the plants at times and found a few dead that tried swimming in my moisture tray, I even killed a few by hand that got too close. But for that long of time, not bad. :-)

I've been letting the top of the media (511) dry out some between watering so that might have helped. It's been 75-78f most of the time so fairly warm.

I made a sticky trap the other day JIC and have only two stuck this morning.

How about yours Heruga? Seeing many?

Ken, microwaving will get rid of fungus and pathogens too?

==>>> sorry.. i missed this ...

i dont know specifically ... all i know from experience.. is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure ...

i went from all kinds of irritating problems... to little or no problems.. when i started cleaning everything at inception ... including the media ...

the one time i fooled around with sand... even thing i live on a hundred feet of sand ... i went and bought kids sandbox sand ... it may have already be sterilized ... i dont recall ...

ken

All my cuttings failed. I haven’t had much time and haven’t been able to care for it these past couple months since I don’t live at my dads house anymore. But I can definitely say the heat probably killed it. Probably play sand also contributed to its failure, even though I mixed with perlite. They started turning brown within a month. Last year my hinoki cuttings lasted little bit over 3 months in ziplock bags but this year I confined them in a plastic tote with saran Wrap over it instead of the lid. They were definitely consistently moist.

That's too bad.

How about your seeds?

Did you get any of them going?

Nope. Neither my chamaecyparis or larix germinated. I don't know if it has to do with keeping the seeds sunk in water for almost 3 days because they wouldn't sink. I think I drowned them and it was too late. I have another batch of chamaecyparis obtusa seeds still in stratification and will sow them in 2 weeks. I doubt anything will happen but I'll give it a try. This time in real potting mix, not the leftover sand/perlite I used for my cuttings.

I didn't have real good success with seeds either but I'm learning. :-)