Jeffery R. Grants, HD designer said that there was no rush, as the 30% sale ran continually. I suppose that they earn commission, so they may be pushing for volume of sales. He mentioned that he had 27 years of kitchen experience, but I couldn't tell it by the way he tried to decrease the clearance of the only path of traffic into the dining room, which is passing in front of the fridge. He tried to make it like 33"!

I can't swap over the oven and refer, although that would be ideal. There is a recessed area behind the fridge, that we will be accessing, in order to recess any regular fridge into, for any future purchases. but, I just had the thought that it would make a great pantry, as it is 4' wide by 3' deep! But then, that would throw off the entire plan! :-(

ci_lantro I plan to have as many drawer banks as there are available. We are looking very hard at Ikea. My program does not have a drawer-bank module, so I could not show them.

Oven is a new Electrolux that we absolutely love!!! In addition to bake/broil, It has convection, slow-cooker mode, dehydrate, defrost, probe, perfect turkey, keep warm, etc. We have been using it and loving all its features!!

I would put the wall oven over in that bookshelf area and make it a bakinga center. That keeps the oven out of the walkway and you. An remove cookies sheets and place them on the bar easily.much safer than in the main loop of the kitchen. Then have the old wall oven be open counter space. Could even put a nice area for cookbooks up top or use that area as a small kitchen office laptop center. Don't run the cabinets to the doorway give space for the countertop. Moving that oven will make your kitchen look twice as big

You should leave a space between the countertop and the lowest shelf to make your countertop more useful and leave a space on the wall for your light switch(es).

CJCarter House, I had considered that, but with people talking about efficient work triangles, I assumed that it was not a good idea, but here it is.

I am concerned about the view from the den, as I wanted the view to look more like a cozy breakfast area, but I guess can't have everything. If I put a breakfast table there, we will have the oven opening behind seated people again, but not as close as it would be at the island.

With the longer island plan, I am also concerned about the length of the island. It seems massive, at 8' plus countertop overhang. And, is it aesthetically pleasing to have that island jutting out into the vignette through the arched doorway? I want it to look pleasing and balanced, as well as functional.

Also, is that 4' walkway near the window too much empty space? It gives a bowling-alley feeling from the den.

Which plan is better? Opinions appreciated! Thank you!

personally, i like to top one with the side table. my feeling is that i would hit my hip on the corner of the island when trying to walk around the turn to go through the door that you started this post with. there is less storage though, so it is a matter of preference. visually, the island is not a problem either way.

Since you are open to omitting the small table, you could consider a peninsula for seating, which would allow you to prep with the southern window in view. Moving the oven to the other side of the door would leave space for the fridge, and open the area in front of the recess, for a step-in pantry.

I second the suggestion someone made to use all drawer bases.

Drat the missing edit function! Here are a couple of small modifications--longer island and a MW in the upper cabinet beside the wall oven:

We have friends who have that design. They have a giant island with seating on two sides for their table. It gets a tremendous amount of use and is a real statement in their kitchen.

I like the oven in its new place and the view from the den seems reasonable. You could shift it so it's not in the corner if that bothers you. What about the oven on the right side near the walkway and cabinets to the left. That would make an easy pivot to the island with hot stuff.
I personally like the big island for seating and not along the window. The window is lovely and you can enjoy the view from the large island. Many people have eliminated tables in narrow areas because they break the flow and everyone sits at the island anyway.

Mama Goose, that looks great!! And a perfect place for the MW! I absolutely intend to get mostly drawers! My program does not have a base drawer module.

Actually, the original kitchen was very similar: We felt very confined within the U-shape, as we like to cook together. But, with your plan of 2 sinks and open to the DR, things may feel different! We have both always loved the island concept, so my hubs would have to be in agreement.

Thanks so much, for taking the time to do the renderings! You are such a blessing!! :-)

BTW...what is the meaning of the large black arrow near the oven?

Mama Goose, here is your plan and in 3D. While logistically, it's an awesome plan, we would have to sit with our backs to the brightest window of the two rooms...a sunny southern exposure. :-( Decisions, decisions!

The only other issue with Mama's excellent plan is where do you put your groceries when loading/unloading the fridge? Otherwise it's an excellent plan

cpartist, good point!! You guys are amazing! You think of things that I had not! Then, I guess I could eliminate the pantry and put a counter there instead? Like this?

The pantry is wayyyyyy more valuable than that section of counter. The groceries will land on the peninsula next to the prep sink first and then on the counter over the dishwasher. Believe it or not, it is easier to load a fridge from across an aisle rather than next to it, which ends up being behind the door.

Firstly, the dark arrow denotes a pull-out pantry, which I put there to give you elbow room on both sides of the oven door. I like the counter beside the fridge, but I agree with XPR Architect--groceries can go on any counter, to be loaded to fridge and pantry, and the pantry storage will be valuable for storing small appliances as well as non-perishables.

I'm with your husband--I like an island, but you should not have any appliances opening behind the seating. It's inconvenient to both the cook and the sitters, and might even be dangerous (the oven).

So, you need a plan with:

• an island
• no open appliances doors encroaching on island seating
• window view available to island seating, prep, and cooking
• step-in pantry (if possible, but not necessary)
• functional layout for multiple cooks/helpers

You need to put those issues in order of importance, and consider the options. Keep in mind that you'll spend more time prepping a meal than in cooking it, consuming it, or cleaning up after.

I have to respectfully disagree with Mama and XPR but that’s because I’m getting up there in years. They are correct when you’re young and spry but as you age pivoting is a major cause of falls for those who are older.

XPR, I already have a pantry around the corner, (as rendered in the drawings) which has a water heater in it, so a pantry in the kitchen itself is not an absolute necessity...just nice and will save steps, especially with the peninsula plan.

We currently have a one-door fridge, which is actually quite nice to load food from a side counter. Aha...I just realized that a one-door fridge is much more convenient in this sense, and so will always look for one for future purchases.

Mama Goose, yes, well-said! Those are my parameters. Now, to come up with a plan that includes all those....that is the challenge!

Does this version meet all the code requirements? Thanks for all your help!

Narnia75, this looks great. I prefer islands over peninsulas as well, but I try not to inject my personal preference unless it is specifically requested. This new layout has a lot going for it. The prep sink is very close to the cooktop. Recessing the fridge and oven give the much needed separation we have all been rooting for. The path to your main pantry is much shorter than in the peninsula plan. The coffee bar is a perfect use for that space in the corner. My only comment: how would you feel about swapping the oven and fridge? The wing wall towards the dining room may prevent the door from swinging open as far as you might like, and keeping options open for all types of fridges for future replacement never hurts either. The small separation that you show between the fridge and oven is not critical, but will help longevity of the appliances since their functions do fight each other. If room permits, those spots work for narrow pullouts or you can DIY a spot skinny enough to be reserved for things like cookie sheets and brooms. Best of luck in your build! I think you are off to a great start having thought all of this through in advance!

The problem with any of these plans is the traffic paths through the space. The pinch point between island and coffee bar in the last idea forces people to choose to go straight through your prep and cooking zones. That’s what most of the island plans do. People take the shortest and easiest path always.

The peninsula plans have a protected cooking cockpit that won’t have through traffic in the danger zone.

To make any of these island plans ideal requires moving the dining room doors and virtually flipping the plans. That presents it’s own issues with other traffic paths then created.

Traffic analysis through the entire home needs to happen. From approach with the groceries, to making pizza and eating it in the family room in front of the TV and then off to bed.

You need to post a whole house plan. The kitchen has to fit and work with the rest of the home.

With everyone's helpful advice, keeping all the pointers in mind, I continued to work with that floorplan, but I just could not come to a point of satisfaction with it, as it was not aesthetically pleasing and still missing some elements. Lying in bed, frustrated, I had a divine inspiration! So, Saturday, I drew up this latest, which I am VERY happy with!! The inspiration was to flip the dining and kitchen spaces, as I realized that the traffic flow of 3 points of entry had made it a very challenging situation! By flipping, I have only 2 points of entry, which gave me a much more functional layout! It ticks all the boxes and I absolutely LOVE it!!

1. I Face the southern window while prepping or cleaning!

2 We WILL be using the dining table, now that it is next to the southern window!

3. We will no longer need to eat at the island, due the table being at the window!

4. I have much more counter space!

5. I have two 24" pantries!

6. I have landing spots on the sides of fridge and oven!

7. Oven is out of the way

8. I can have a sink and a DW at the island now, with the longer island, room for two cooks

9. Very important! NICE view from den!! (last pic below)

Guests always enter through the back entry, then walk left into the space. It's so much nicer for guests to walk into an eating space than a kitchen. And if they are in the den, they will flow straight into the dining area, rather than have to walk through the messy kitchen to get to the dining area! Makes so much more sense! And so much more pleasing!

We have rarely every used that dining room when it was closed up, because it was on the dark, north side of the house, so this is just very exciting to dine at a bright sunny window!

We spend most of our time at the table after meals....it's our hangout. We have our laptops and watch Youtube, internet, etc. We don't watch TV.

If anyone sees any issues or tweaks needed in this plan, please feel free to let me know! Thanks so much for everyone's generous help!! :-)

My latest tweak, as per Mama Goose's suggestion on the old floor plan, I added a 15" pantry to the right of the oven.

What application are you using for modeling? The perspectives look pretty good.

Your new plan looks pretty good. And your renderings look great.

Do you really want a 2-tiered peninsula? You will lose the nice expanse of countertop that a peninsula normally gives you. Also I'm not sure if overhang is big enough for comfortable seating.

I think you said you are doing the work yourself? If so, have you thought about the plumbing and electrical changes that will be needed to swap dining and kitchen areas?

That plan is an improvement over the other. But it is also a huge leap in cost and difficulty to accomplish. And the previous plans were already pretty darn expensive, due to the huge amount of cabinets in them. Are you going to stay in this house long enough to be able to really use this kitchen enough to justify a multiple 6 figure house rearrangement remodel by professionals ? Because that work by professionals is on what these industry figures are based. https://www.remodeling.hw.net/cost-vs-value/2019/

Are you in the trades yourself and will do much of the moving around of those home systems? The electrical upgrade? The HVAC changes? The plumbing moving? Do the cobblers children have shoes? LOL! DIY projects go slow, especially for those of us who do it for others. There just never seems to be enough hours in the day. And I never seem to realize any of the “25% savings” that not hiring a GC “should” have happen. There’s always something else to put that “saved money” into. I can get a higher grade project, but at triple the time involved. Sometimes more than triple the time. Our barn renovation has been a slow 20 year project. And then there’s the small addition that stalled out at dry in. Etc. Good luck, no matter what path you choose!

At least your new plan removes my major objection to the old variations: I would hate to have to maneuver around the island or peninsula chairs to access the garage.

If you return to using the original space, perhaps look into have the access doorway shifted to the left.

XPR Architect, it's Better Homes and Gardens Architectural Home Designer 8. I have had it for over 10 years and love playing around with it. :-)

Lisa, plumbing and electrical will be hired out. So will drywall. We will be doing the cabinet assembly and installation, the painting and the flooring.

Good point about the peninsula counter. I have gone back and forth about the raised bar. Do I want to hide the clutter at the sink? Or do I want to extend the same height for a more integrated-room-feel? And yes, I would have more counter space for prepping or cleaning as well. I will continue to think on that one.

Cook's Kitchen, we will be using Ikea cabinets so the cost will not be so high. The rooms have already been gutted out to the studs on ceiling as well, so electrical, plumbing will not be complicated and there won't be any construction per se. Just moving plumbing and rearranging lighting.

The overhang depends on which height you choose: for table height chairs, 18"; for counter height stools, 15"; for bar height stools, 12".

I would not include an overhang at your island if you never intend to put chairs there. Alternatively, you can install open shelving or cabinets back-to-back with the island cabs you already show. The ready-to-assemble cabinets that I used had a 4 1/2" toe kick, which meant the remaining base height above it was 30", making 12" deep by 30" high wall cabinets a perfect fit (almost like they meant it that way...wink, wink).

As far as budget goes, is their a crawl space below this floor? If so, here is a SWAG for your budget based on a similar renovation that is just finishing up: demo ($2000), electrical ($5,000), plumbing ($3,000), drywall ($2,500), flooring installed by you ($2,500), ready-to-assemble cabinets installed by you ($10,000), paint by you ($500), countertops ($7,000), sinks and faucets ($1,000). Add for light fixtures, furnishings, and appliances depending on taste and need. These are by no means exacting numbers, just a order of magnitude to figure on based on my particular region just outside a major city in the northeast. You may be able to cut back on some of that $32,500 by finding some killer deals, or you may end up uncovering something else that needs money thrown at it. Custom cabs can easily be $40,000 and up, while c-tops can be gotten for $2,000 or less if you are one of the very few who prefer laminate.

XPR, we were thinking of adding more cabinets to the bottom of the island...had not gotten that far yet...but...in the case of wanting to sit at the island to do some prepping, the overhang and a work stool would come in handy.

My husband is the demo expert. My husband can do plumbing, so that cost can be saved. We have a crawl-space and he has done a lot of plumbing around this house. Electrical will NOT be that expensive. Maybe $700 tops. We are in a very rural area, where labor is quite cheap....$65 per hour. Worst comes to worst, my husband is capable of doing that as well. He has even done drywall, but prefers not to do it anymore. Drywall for those two rooms...$1,500. We had it priced. Working on Ikea planner for figures on cabinets. the most expensive thing besides cabinets will be the counter tops. Had considered doing butcher block for the island and quartz for the periphery.

I just worked on the Ikea planner and the cabinets do come to around $10,000. We can wait for the 20% off sale and bring it down to $8,000. Worst comes to worst, we can eliminate the tall pantry cabinets, since we already have a large walk-in pantry around the corner.

I have a meeting with the Ikea designer next week. Will see what she comes up with and she can hopefully advise me on how to cut costs with the cabinet types.

I love the look of butcher block on the island and quartz on the perimeter. great choice! the quartz is super low maintenance, and if you go with a top end brand like Cambria, they will repair any chips for life. this let's you deal with the high maintenance of butcher block without feeling too burdened by it.

Just consider carefully about the cheaper Ikea Forvara drawers - I hear that they are not nearly as sturdy as the Maximera.

raee_gw zone 5b-6a Ohio Going with the Maximera.

XPR Architect please tell me more about the high maintenance of butcher block. I am not aware. I have been many do it in the photos and so I had assumed that it was not that big a deal. Also, I will have a sink in the island with the butcher block...I wonder how that would hold up with an undermount prep sink? I had seen it done, but I wonder about the cutout area....

I think the new plan is SO much better than where you started! Isn't it funny how brilliant ideas tend to strike just as we are about to fall asleep and then the adrenaline surge keeps us up all night? :)

We plan to use IKEA cabs in our upcoming remodel/addition. I'm keeping an eye out for when they go on sale but I doubt it'll be 20% off :/ We have a kitchen, living room, laundry, pantry, and 3 baths to do!

The last time I paid attention, the Ikea kitchen sale had changed to a rebate system - so it isn't 20% off the price paid, but 20% in rebate value to spend in the store. Has that changed again?

butcher block counters are porous, so they have to be resealed regularly, as soon as it starts to loose it's shine. the importance of this cannot be understated in keeping the surface sanitary. daily cleaning is done with a soapy wet rag or sponge, and not cleaning solutions. the upside is that you will never have to worry about scratches, watermarks, or light stains as these can be repaired with a light sanding and resealing. wood counters bring a beautiful warmth and character to any space. on an island, it should be easy to clear it off and walk all the way around it for routine maintenance (unlike a counter against a wall).

shead, thank you! We are redoing our whole house! Gutted to the studs! Even the underlayment on the floors is being replaced with Advantech.

The light-bulb moments definitely strike at night! Too many adrenaline-pumped nights! Need to rest and get caught up on my sleep now, since it's pretty much settled! :-)

raee_gw zone 5b-6a Ohio I had heard that it was, but I didn't think to ask. But, even if it's store credit, I saw a hack on Youtube to it. Split the order and buy the rest with the credit! :-)

^^^Yes, what narnia75 said :) For instance, if I buy my kitchen in one order, I can use the rebate card toward my pantry. The key is figuring out exactly where to split the order so that you maximize the savings.

narnia 75, check out this website abeautifulmess.com , I came across it when researching placing an undermount sink in butcherblock counter tops. I love the warm tones of the wood so am considering having these countertops in my remodel. I to was concerned about a sink and water.... She did her research and has shared valuable information that was useful in my decision to install butcherblock counters. Hope it helps. By the way I really like your last design. I was going to suggest that you flip your space but thought way back that your dining room was elevated. Don't know where I got that. But it looks great.
Since your doing as I, a complete gut. Expect the unexpected. I live outside a small town and Lowe's is the only hardware store with in an hours drive. I'm there so much I'm on a first name basis with much of the staff. Sometimes 2 to 3 times a day. Lol When renovating an older home, unless you built it yourself you never know what you will find.

abeautifulmess.com

Narnia75 and shead the last Ikea kitchen sale over the summer was 10% off and it came directly as a discount when you purchased your cabinets (not as store credit). We ordered our kitchen during that sale and I think (but am not positive) that you could even see the discount as you planned in the online planner, as long as you were signed in with your Ikea Family number.

We are putting butcher block countertops in our kitchen on the perimeter cabinets. In fact, our contractor started installing them today! He has had them himself for years and is very happy with them. I am not worried about the maintenance myself, but we have also had soapstone (which we will have again on our island) and I don't mind the oiling process.

Can't wait to see your Ikea kitchens!

@klynnneg, good info! I'm hoping the next sale occurs when they also run a gift card sale :) I might have to wait for the spring sale anyway since it'll likely be then before I need them :/

I'd love to see pics of your IKEA cabs installed.

klynneg yes! p

Please share pics here on this post, so that I won't miss them! How exciting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which door did you choose?

David Adkins, we have already gutted out the area and have been living in a prototype kitchen. Nothing that we didn't anticipate. This house was built by my parents in 1973. I still have the original blueprints, so there were no surprises. :-)

The prototype is closer to the first plan, but I was never happy with the traffic flow, so I ended up with the latest. We wanted to see how we would like the plan that we had, so we made a prototype of plywood and worked with it for a while. We love it kitchen-wise, but the space at the window was quite awkward and unresolved.

Narnia75, we are using the Grimslov off-white fronts. If I use any glass doors, I may use the Bodbyn ones, as I like the glass doors in that style and the whites match. Ikea used to have a 39 inch wide open plate rack that I loved, but they do not make it anymore :(