Really like the pocket door idea cd! And yes that’s basically the way it’ll be with the family room extension. We lose that cabinet in the mudroom but I don’t see it as much of a loss

What I don't like about the pocket doors is that I expect you'll want those door open most of the time for light, air flow, view to the front. But that means your pantry will be on full view.

Do you think you'd like a door from the playroom to the living room? That way no one tracks through the mudroom going from one room to another, and there is a flow, and the playroom can easily become a gameroom, library, sitting room, cozy spot, as the family matures.

I think I'd rather have one kid banging on a door to get into the bathroom than one kid charging through another one's bedroom because they forgot to unlock the first kid's door. One less door slamming in the mornings, too.

I like the plan!
my only concern would be that the master bathroom is right above the great room. if someone is taking a shower up there the downstairs guests will hear it. I'd someone flushes the toilet it will be heard in the great room.

otherwise I like it

Kitchen will be light and bright. Great room won't be.

How big is your property? And which direction are you thinking the front will face?

Agree totally CP. We are going to try to help that a bit by going to 10 ft ceilings (making the windows a little bit larger) and lighting it up with recessed lights

We can either orient west or south

A couple of minor quibbles:

I would probably leave the butler's pantry as is. Pocket doors can be a PITA, and need to be thought out carefully. And you really DO need to be able to access the dining room directly from the kitchen if you're going to use it as a dining room. If not, wall up the door into the dining room from the "butler's pantry" and make the whole thing your pantry.

Am I the only one who dislikes having a powder room of the foyer? It seems to say, "Hi! How are you? Here's our toilet!"

If you're on acreage, and you have kids, one other note:

Your plan is so tiny, I cannot tell - where is the access outdoors via the back of the house? Because that's the door your kids are going to come in and out when they are playing. Also the door they will come through when outside and need to use the bathroom. If they have to get ALL the way across the great room to get to the bathroom and there is no sort of area to transition out of outdoor things... this could get to be an issue. Ideally, your mudroom should be the "airlock" between the clean part of your house and the place where your children will get the most grubby. And needs to be in the most direct like from A to B. Is it?

What happened to the closet in Bedroom 3?

Sorry the plan photos are tiny; they’re just mobile screenshots from a big pdf file.

After thinking about it I don’t think pocket doors for the pantry will work because they’re going to be open most of the time

We will likely be using dining/study room as a study/quieter room not dining

The backyard access is through the great room to the covered porch (then steps to grade) but I don’t think it’s too far to the powder bath or playroom bath? Kids are messy; I don’t expect to have clean floors 24/7!

I avoid:

1. Designs that do not relate to the site.

2. Closets where hanging clothes turn corners.

3. Windowless walk-in closets.

4. Hallways less than four feet wide.

5. Stairs less than 3'-6" wide.

6. Freestanding tubs that do not have sufficient space to clean around.

7. Powder room off main entry

8. Closets with doors that insufficiently provide full access to the closet's content.

9. Bedrooms next to a bathroom without a sound barrier.

10. Clothes closets accessible from a bathroom.

11. Gas chambers without windows.

12. Gas chambers.

13. If a living room has any view, having screen or a fireplace impede the view.

14. Jack & Jill bathrooms.

15. Door swings that impede into laundry room work space.

16. Double entry doors.

17. Shower benches that are too shallow to sit on, even if it is for placing a foot on to shave a leg.

18. Entry areas into a room narrower than 4'-0".

19. Corner bedroom with window(s) on only one exterior wall.

20. Oddball niches like the one in the loft.

21. Oven doors that open into doorways.

to name a few.

What happened to the closet in Bedroom 3?

At the top left of Bedroom 3, Virgil. (I had to put on my magnifying glasses, but I found it! Now that I found my glasses, I should go do some needlework...)

Bedroom 3’s closet is at the top left of the room

Depends on what you mean by "moderate climate" and how your kids play. I'm not talking a couple footprints... I'm talking a trail of melting blobs of snow, gobs of mud, hay, straw, sweet feed, critter hair, etc. It will depend on your yard set up, where they are likely to play, and what they do. My sister and I could have found a mud puddle in the Gobi desert. And would have. OTOH, we had a neighbor girl who was in frilly dresses 24/7, and would never have dreamed of such a thing.

Also watch out for the 90 degree turn up the garage stairs and into the house. That makes it hard to bring larger items in from that direction. Which may or may not be an issue.

Ahhh so! Thank you.

Now so obvious!

Holly, I don‘t Remember if Laura has boys...if so, problem solved lol.

How often do kids come in to use the bathroom, anyway? Besides, they‘ll have already shed the detritus on the porch.

One boy one girl haha

Agree totally CP. We are going to try to help that a bit by going to 10 ft ceilings (making the windows a little bit larger) and lighting it up with recessed lights

We can either orient west or south

Sorry but going to 10' ceilings will not give you more light in the interior of the great room. I have 10' ceilings and I can assure you that the light will only intrude so far.

Secondly neither orientation is good. If it's west it means your back faces east so the only light will be in the morning in your public rooms. What little they get.

If it's south, then the back gets north meaning the house will Always be dark.

The best houses have windows on at least two walls in every public room and every bedroom.

The best houses don't have staircases that are just a way to get from one floor to the next but actually lead you to the next floor acting almost as a separate room. So when you walk up the stairs your view ISN'T of a hall closet!

The best houses take into consideration what Holly said about where children will be entering from the yard so dirt an mud is not tracked through the house.

The best houses don't have a large covered porch covering the back of the house so absolutely no light will enter the living room. I don't care if you have 16' ceilings!

The best houses don't have a dining nook that is under 8' deep because that isn't nearly large enough for more than a very small table and a couple of chairs.

The best houses make it easy when coming into the mudroom to put coats, boots, bags, etc away.

The best houses don't have two master walk in closets and a master bath larger than the master bedroom.

The best houses don't have a "loft" space because the designer didn't know what to do with the space and didn't know what to call it. You have the playroom downstairs. That's just wasted space. (Same with unfinished storage space!) You pay for all space, whether it's useful or not. Best to design a house where every space is used to the max.

The best houses don't have the master toilet right up against the master bedroom.

Pathways again. Once again lots of wasted space.

Cpartist , stop with the pathways. they are not a good representation of wasted space. don't believe me? post the pathways of YOUR house and you'll see just as much red

Are you designing for a small lot? If not, I would look at stretching the house into a longer, less deep rectangle so that you can get better light to the great room with windows on two sides.

Either way, if you don't plan to use the guest bedroom as such, I would design it as what it is, a playroom, rather than as a guest bedroom. This would involve better access from the great room because in my experience small kids aren't going to go through the mudroom and around a couple of corners to get to a closed off great room. I would also make the bathroom accessible to the hall, rather than just to the playroom. Because in my experience you also don't really want to give small kids unsupervised playroom access to a bathroom, or really even a water source.

DE the pathways show how one moves through the house. It shows a combo of pathways through the rooms where people don't realize they'll need to walk, plus foyers/mudrooms, etc and finally wasted spaces.

For example, for the OP, she may or may not have realized that there's an additional path through the office to get to the kitchen and that path needs to be accounted for.

Or she may or may not have realized how much space is between the kitchen and living room that is not really usable space. I happen to have a space just like that in our NY rental. It's a great open living/dining area but much of it is useless space because pathways cut through it.

Can't see anything on the plan. When I click to enlarge, it actually gets smaller.

Go forth and knock again, odd or even will nary away; kinder luck awaits in heading the advice of these strangers. Perhaps better succor be summoned.

Oh boy!

Another posting where the OP doesn't really want any suggestions or comments...

"The best house is the house that’s best for the owners."

Then why are you asking so many strangers how to improve it??

I mean you really can’t say that I’m not open to suggestions when I’ve tossed other two floor plans based on suggestions...

Why ask for improvements? To uh...improve it? Not every suggestion is one that works for us. And that is ok! There are plenty of suggestions here where I’ve said “yeah that’s good, I’ll talk to the builder” like considering pocket doors or closing the wall to make the pantry area a bigger pantry, or windows on the side for bedroom 3.

Also I legit never said I consider this house to be the “best house.” I’m challenging the notion that there is a set of rules that dictate what a “best house” is

Well...there are certainly principles that constitute good design.

To break the rules and survive, however, one must first know what the rules are and their impact. Or they will surprise you by biting you in the backside.

Good luck with your project!

Take out the jack and jill bathroom doors. Imagine going to the bathroom and wanting privacy, and locking all 3 doors. Then only unlocking the door you went in.........Going to the bathroom will always be extra work to close extra doors. Even if your own kids do not need privacy now, they will as they get older. And if they ever have friends spend the night, the friends will want privacy. I am biased since I really disliked the J and J bath at a friend's house. It was always awkward to use. The one door is much simpler. Or, do 2 separate bathrooms.

You have kids' closets on prime wall/window space, yet the master closets are interior. Do you want natural light in closets or not?

What about the laundry room, that would be a nice room to have on an exterior wall for natural light and a short run for venting. Our laundry room is about that far from our bedroom and I can hear the washer or dryer if I am trying to fall asleep.

I like the toilet area to have a window or skylight so I can see it in the dark. There is enough moonlight most nights not to have to turn lights on at my house to go to the bathroom. :)

All of these are personal choices. So if you prefer as you have, do it that way :) I just wanted to bring up points that would matter to me. I would prefer the bathroom to have natural light over a closet if I had to pick one since I never go to my closet at night when the natural light helps. :)

lafdr

Well...I find highlighting circulation paths very helpful. It is one of the first things I do when I see and evaluate a floor plan.

From many postings, it's clear that many consumers are unaware of circulation patterns and their effect on plan efficiency and furnishing possibilities.

Recognition of circulation patterns is a very useful trait to develop and use.

Do not want windows in the master closet because I get dressed in my closet (I suppose this is weird haha)

We don’t do laundry at night. I will ask about how it will be vented because I also had that thought

I’m feeling the same way about the JnJ. The only advantage I see is not having kids walking in the hall by the stairs at night if they get up in the middle of the night. But I think I’m paranoid enough that I’ll be leaving gates up on the stairs longer than usual anyway

We have a skylight in our current master bath and we hateeeee it! Different strokes for different folks. But I’m big on the “show me a skylight that hasn’t leaked and I’ll show you one that will leak” mantra.

Re: window in the master closet

Did you consider this could be a small window above the closet organization system that lets natural light into the closet but wouldn’t allow any sight lines into the master closet?

Good luck with your project!

Alley, hadn’t thought of that! Will mull it over. Another reason I’m not super into the concept though is that I get up when it’s dark anyway

Oops I missed that the laundry would have no place to vent except out the ceiling. Probably one of the worst solutions btw.

Why ask for improvements? To uh...improve it? Not every suggestion is one that works for us. And that is ok! There are plenty of suggestions here where I’ve said “yeah that’s good, I’ll talk to the builder” like considering pocket doors or closing the wall to make the pantry area a bigger pantry, or windows on the side for bedroom 3.

That's not making changes in terms of function and use when the big picture still needs work. But hey as long as you're ok with a dark living room where no natural light will enter, that's fine with me. You asked which is why we responded.

You have plenty of room for 2 bathrooms instead of J&J. Since your kids are different genders, I’d go with that, even if it means less spacious bathrooms. (Really sink area- the toilet/ shower area isn’t particularly spacious the way it is now)
Also, I’d lay out 1 bathroom in a way that another door (sliding?) can be added in case you one day have a reason to want access off the hallway.

I think it’s pretty melodramatic to say no light will enter the great room. No it’s not going to be the brightest room in the house but it’s not a pitch black cave

It's not going to be a pitch black cave, but if you have the space to design it in such a way that it *does* get natural light, why would you not do that? I don't think it would even require going back to the drawing board, actually - you could likely reorient and shift the playroom and garage and accomplish this.

Ventless dryers are an option, too. No need to vent outside. They are more expensive, and take longer to dry - but they are also more energy efficient. I'll be putting a ventless dryer in my place (even though I do have a wall I can vent from).

I'm actually going to be putting in a ventless washer/dryer combo, to simplify my life (I can start it in the morning, be gone all day, and come home to clean. dry clothes).

Just something to consider, if it works for your needs.

hummingbird, we have a ventless in our apartment and they take 2-3x as long to dry.

Also the disadvantage of the all in one washer/dryer is if you're wanting to do multiple loads you can't.

I had a ventless dryer but I kept losing the clothespins.

I had a ventless dryer but I kept losing the clothespins.

Likely my dogs chewed them up.

Laura, CP's list isn't like saying "The BEST people send their daughters to Miss Holyoke's School For Girls" or "The BEST people have a Summer place on Martha's Vineyard." It's more a list of good design principles.

Do they all have to be met? No. But for each one you don't meet, you move a little further away from a good design that will be both comfortable to live in, safe, and aesthetically pleasing.

Now, very few designs meet all of what the pros would consider "Good Design" principles. But for every one you choose to forgo, it should be because there was something else your prioritized more highly and you could only do one. There is ALWAYS compromise in building a house, because there are always constraints.

We don't know all of your constraints - be they budgetary, lot-related, familial, or something else. But what everybody is trying to gently point out is that the only reason to have the main living area of your house more or less devoid of direct light is because you prioritized other things AND COULD NOT HAVE BOTH. And, in this case, there doesn't really seem to be any reason that you can't have a bright great room AND the other priorities you have expressed - just not from this plan.

I don't know what your lot is like, although the fact that you have options for orientation suggest that you have a bit of room to work with. If setbacks will allow, consider stretching a plan out more than this one (which is a square box, really), because that would help arrange the rooms in such a way that both the kitchen AND great room should be well-fenestrated.

cpartist, which is why I said it depends on what works for the OP's needs.

For me, I do less than 1 load per week, so multiple loads at a time is not an issue. And I also like to start it when I get up, and not worry about it again until close to bedtime, so the longer time isn't an issue.

I understand how those could be issues for some other people.

I would jigger things so you have bathroom or powder room access from the mud room. People, not just kids, do very messy things outside.....and while you’re still in the designing phase, you might want to think about adding a washer dryer hookup in the mud room closet. You don’t ever have to use it, but think forward to swim team, or hockey gear, messy gardeners....I think your Jack and Jill is fine, you have a private toilet/ bathing area, so only the tooth brushing space is communal....and you have hall access. I might look at reducing the one walk-in closet to give a bit more space in the bath/toilet area....if your kids are still little, and you are supervising a joint bath, it looks a little cramped.

"We have a skylight in our current master bath and we hateeeee it! Different strokes for different folks. But I’m big on the “show me a skylight that hasn’t leaked and I’ll show you one that will leak” mantra."

We have a tract home with two skylights -- one over the upstairs hallway/landing and one over the upstairs hallway bathroom. We bought the house when it was in the framing stage, in May 1990 and moved in at the end of September 1990, so we're going on 29 years. Neither of the skylights has ever leaked. And, they had to be completely removed and reinstalled when we had a new roof put on in February 2015, and they still have never leaked, and we have had some torrential rains.

The only issue we have with skylights is the added heat to the room/area with the skylights. We have sunscreens over the skylights.

Life won’t throw us a curveball on more kids, I promise! We have severe infertility and it took many thousands of dollars to conceive our twins.

Famous last words!

I don’t have the redrawn plans for the playroom yet. But basically we would ditch the linen closet, scoot the wall from the family room to the left three feet, and lose some mudroom space. I would like to keep the powder room though so that when people come over they don’t have to walk by the playroom mess when they need to use the bathroom

What I hear you saying is that you're turning this area from a bedroom into a flex room /den. It's nicely located for that purpose ... but it is unfortunate that the flex room /den will receive nicer natural light than the family's main living space.

Question though: Why do you need a downstairs playroom AND an upstairs loft? Are you building a room you don't really need?

Another question: Are you saying you're going to build the powder room in the foyer AND a second powder room in the playroom? That's an expensive choice while building, and it'll mean more cleaning every week.

Cpartist , stop with the pathways. they are not a good representation of wasted space. don't believe me?

I kinda agree. For example, the foyer, of course, is nothing but a pathway ... but the floor space in the powder room is NOT just a pathway; it's used for, um, bathroom purposes. That's just an example ... other parts you've identified in red are used for more than "passing through".

The whole “best houses” thing does make me chuckle a little in good fun. The best house is the house that’s best for the owners.

Maybe no "best house" exists, but "best practices" and "standard rules" that apply to essentially everyone do exist. Sometimes it makes perfect sense /is even preferable to break "the rules", but -- when /if you do -- it should be a decision made carefully /thoughtfully /taking into consideration all the ramifications of skipping over the "best practices".

What isn’t easy about the mudroom? I’m missing that.

My only criticism of the mudroom is that -- being in the middle of the house -- it'll receive no natural light.

Are you planning to harness the storage space under the large switchback stair? It may only be "half height", but it's a lot of space. You're paying for it, and you shouldn't box it off -- this'd be a great space for Christmas stuff, though I'd probably opt to use it for something I'd access more often.

Some people dislike the idea of walking through the mudroom to reach the bedroom, and some people dislike the idea of a bedroom being off the kitchen /compare it to a maid's room.

Oh, I do see another problem with the mudroom: Imagine you're bringing a sofa or other large furniture into this space ... how will you navigate those corners? Of course, you might be planning a sliding glass door into the back yard ... that would fix any bringing-in-big-furniture problems.

Covered porch is big for us because we like to eat outside and this gives us a way to do so in blaring sun or drizzling rain.

It will, however, make your living room dark. You could eliminate this problem by placing your covered porch on the SIDE of your house instead of the back.

What about the laundry room, that would be a nice room to have on an exterior wall for natural light and a short run for venting. Our laundry room is about that far from our bedroom and I can hear the washer or dryer if I am trying to fall asleep.

Yes, washers /dryers are vastly better on exterior walls. They're cheaper to install /easier to clean the vents /more fire safe.

All of these are personal choices. So if you prefer as you have, do it that way :) I just wanted to bring up points that would matter to me. I would prefer the bathroom to have natural light over a closet if I had to pick one since I never go to my closet at night when the natural light helps. :)

Yes, personal choices ... but never allow yourself to become so attached to a plan /an idea that you aren't honest with yourself about how much a certain issue will matter.

Recognition of circulation patterns is a very useful trait to develop and use.

Agree.

Do not want windows in the master closet because I get dressed in my closet (I suppose this is weird haha)

Plus windows in closets = faded clothing.

We have a skylight in our current master bath and we hateeeee it! Different strokes for different folks. But I’m big on the “show me a skylight that hasn’t leaked and I’ll show you one that will leak” mantra.

Yes, a skylight is a bet with nature. Your wager is a hole in your roof, while nature's contribution is the willingness to work 24/7 to defeat your man-made materials. Water wins 100% of the time ... maybe not this year, but eventually.

I think it’s pretty melodramatic to say no light will enter the great room. No it’s not going to be the brightest room in the house but it’s not a pitch black cave

But more light = better, and bringing in more light would require very little effort /no additional money.

hummingbird, we have a ventless in our apartment and they take 2-3x as long to dry.

I have no experience with these ventless dryers, but common sense says that the dampness has to go somewhere, and if venting isn't possible, more electricity /more time is going to be the answer. This does not sound appealing at all.

On the subject of the laundry, note that you'll have to pass through a "bottleneck" in the laundry
to reach all that storage ... this'll be difficult with big things like
artificial Christmas trees.

Also, I'd lose the sink in the laundry room. It's the only water-item in that wall, so it'll be relatively expensive to plumb it ... and new washing machines have pretty much eliminated hand washing.

My random thoughts:

- The overall layout looks okay, but it doesn't seem to be anything special.

- I can't quite make out the doors to the backyard. I think the breakfast nook has windows /not doors ... this is good because once a table is placed in this space, doors wouldn't be useful. Is that a door near the fireplace? I'd think a door nearer the kitchen would be more useful, especially since you say you enjoy eating outdoors ... and that makes me wonder if you enjoy grilling. You don't want your kitchen and grilling area too far apart. Be sure the door is hinged in the direction of the kitchen for easy use.

- I like the butler's pantry area. The cabinet on the right will be ideal for self-serve drinks or dessert at parties. I'd put pegboard on the flat wall of the pantry; that would be very useful.

- I don't like anything in the master bath. Wasted space in the middle, too-wide shower, expensive bump-out for the tub. You have so much space here ... you could have something so much nicer.

Mrs Pete, they aren’t famous last words. Not having ovaries makes it pretty dang impossible to be surprised. But thanks for your 2 cents on my fertility

These threads are informative at so many different levels.

I kinda agree. For example, the foyer, of course, is nothing but a pathway ... but the floor space in the powder room is NOT just a pathway; it's used for, um, bathroom purposes. That's just an example ... other parts you've identified in red are used for more than "passing through".

Of course they're used for more than passing through but the reason to show it, is to show that it's also needed for passing through. And no a foyer is not only a pathway but also an entryway.

It's a way to show how one will move through the house and yes I include the bathrooms because those are paths used multiple times a day. I don't include closets or the kitchen, unless the kitchen turns into a major pathway.

Recognition of circulation patterns is a very useful trait to develop and use.

Agree.

And that's what I'm trying to show.