" the cost savings is huge when switching from gas to electric for heat. "

Normally today gas is much cheaper than electricity for heat. It depends on your billing rates. And if you're talking about a gas-fired boiler versus heat pump forced air.

Weed: our winter bills are SOOO much more than our summer bills. The winter radiators are run off gas and the AC is run off electric.

"But we’ve heard that the cost savings is huge when switching from gas to electric for heat."

Just goes to show, you can't believe everything you hear!!!

As a rule, heat pumps do better in warmer climates than cooler climates. Gas is usually less expensive than electric, especially in cold climates where you have electric resistance backup heat for heat pumps. In New York, you're going to spend much more on heating than cooling. In Florida, the reverse is true.

If your 3rd floor heat pump was correctly sized, it won't heat or cool your second floor adequately.

If you can figure out the duct work, I'd look into a separate system for the second floor - gas heat and electric cooling.

The reason your electric bills are high in the winter is due to your heat pump. If Con Ed your electricity supplier then you are paying a high electricity rate. You are correct that heat pumps are not able to keep up with winters in the New York City area. They are installed with back up electric heat strips that are very expensive to operate.

Is there a possibility of raising the steam pipes in the basement and giving additional clearance? Tearing out a steam system is expensive itself. You then have deal with holes in floors and ceilings where steam pipe risers now exist.

Your best option is to install a gas furnace. There is a chance the existing furnace is large enough the service the second floor. If not then perhaps installing a furnace for the second and third floors could work and you don't use the heat pump for heating.

Mike: but doesn’t the hybrid system have the gas furnace kick in at temperatures it can’t handle?

I am not certain what you have right how. You stated your electric bills are so much higher in the winter than the summer so I presumed you have electric strip heating with your heat pump.

Gas prices are low compared to electricity in most parts of the country. So I don't think it makes sense to use a heat pump in NY if you have a gas furnace. If you post your electric and gas rate we can calculated the cost to operate each one. I have PSE&G in NJ. The gas rates are so low that a heat pump can't compare in operating costs.

Mike: it’s a bit complicated. We have 3 different heating systems in our house

1. steam radiators on the 1st and 2nd floor front of the house (original to 1937)
2. heat pump heat on the 3rd floor (previous owners dormered up in late 1990’s - that heat only gets turned on when my husband works from home. It’s VERY forceful)
3. forced hot air off a gas furnace in the kitchen and family room.

The steam radiator pipes run very very low in our basement. We are trying to finish our basement and need to decide if we:

1. keep the 2nd floor radiators
2. overhaul the entire house and put in one system (hydro or hybrid)

We like the radiator heat, but really want this basement.

Where is the furnace for the kitchen and family room located?

Mike: in the basement.

A heat pump with gas backup is usually referred to as a "dual fuel" system. They are expensive and probably not worth it in your climate. A straight AC and furnace would undoubtedly cheaper to install and run.

Then see if you can run the duct work from this furnace the rest of the first floor. The second floor is going to be difficult but if you are doing a major renovation then it might be possible. The furnace may be too small, but many times furnaces and air conditioners are over sized so it it likely it could handle at least all of the first floor. Would ever you do you will likely have to compromise on something.

Mike: the furnace in the basement can handle the first floor. It’s the second floor that’s the issue.

Hybrid system? Put a furnace in the 3rd floor and hook it up to the 2nd floor (different zones, though)? But putting a furnace in the 3rd floor would require running a glass line from outside to the 3rd fooor.

Can anyone speak to the effectiveness in heat pumps or any of the above mentioned systems in the N.Y. winters (where January and February are really the only super cold months)??

Heat pumps have come a long way in terms of how they can operate in a cold weather climate. However, it will need back up or emergency heat for those periods the Heat Pump enters defrost to thaw out the outdoor condenser coil.

Given how you describe this property I think it ultimately will come down to expense, the difference in cost from one option to another. You need to weigh the operational costs as well as the retro fit costs to install what ever proposed solution you decide on.

How a heat pump works: When in heating mode the condenser becomes the evaporator / the evaporator becomes the condenser. This switch is performed mechanically based on the thermostat mode of operation.

A heat pump is an air conditioner that has added parts and controls that allow it to perform in a heating mode. Basically, what the heat pump does in heating mode is that it pulls heat from outside air and dumps this heat it removes from outside and places it inside the structure.

BUT, it's like 15 degrees outside how can it be taking heat from outside?

This is why a heat pump is better suited to a warmer climate that rarely drops much below freezing. However, this doesn't mean it can't work in a colder climate. It's important you understand how a heat pump works. Because you will be forced to clear snow and ice from forming around it to keep it operating as effectively as possible.

If you're not up for that, don't select a heat pump. Defrost of a heat pump won't clear the snow and ice build up from snow storms and so on. If you know of an area on your property that is a common area for snow drifts, do not place a heat pump there as an example.

Austin: I have done SOOO much research on heat pumps and the hybrid system. One of our condensers has a heat pump now (3rd floor, dormered up in about 1990’s) and it works just fine. BUT my HVAC ppl don’t think it’s strong enough to also heat the 2nd floor (getting rid of radiators) and my furnace in the basement isn’t strong enough to also heat the 1st floor area (where radiators are also being taken out).

So if bits and pieces of my 3 current systems need to be changed/updated, my contractor is recommending just to outfit the whole house in ONE new system, instead of doing it piecemeal and keeping the 3 individual systems.

The heat pump areas are on the side of the house, near a covering that doesn’t get much snow or snow drifts.

I understand ppl’s concerns with heat pumps, but since our 3rd floor is already using one and it heats up quite quickly, I’m not as worried about it for the whole house. And yes, it would be hooked up to a gas furnace for those super cold months.

Two questions:

1. does the hybrid system use gas all the time or the times when the temp is 40+ it uses electric? That’s the only confusing part for me

2. Are there hybrid condensers that have various temperatures where they activate the furnace? 40 deg? 20 deg? If so, how does the price of the unit vary for the temperatures?

The heatpump will work at temperatures that are consistent with more efficient (cost effective) operation. Dual fuel systems have outdoor sensors that switch between the heatpump and gas furnace at a set temperature as standard. It's unlikely that you will recover the cost of the dual fuel system over a gas furnace/AC condenser.

As far a single system for a 3 storey house - bad idea. Upstairs will always be hotter than downstairs. Zoning sometimes helps but most installers don't know how to put them together so you end up with an ineffective system.

I think you should keep the heat pump for the third floor. It is only used for heating when working from home. I would think on a sunny winter day the dormer warms up so that the heat pump does not have to provide much heat. However I imagine in the summer it can get very hot up there. Having a separate system for the third floor is the best solution. I disagree with your HVAC contractor on having a single system.

Answers to your questions:

1. The gas furnace would only turn on when the outside temperature falls below a set temperature. The furnace and heat pump cannot operate at the same time. An outdoor temperature sensor is wired to the indoor thermostat. The thermostat makes the switch over based on the outdoor temperature.

2. The temperature set point is picked by how much heat the heat pump can produce and the heat loss of your house. Your 1937 house probably does not have good exterior wall insulation. The set point of the heat pump may be set to 40-45 degrees. There are inverter type heat pumps that produce more heat at low temperatures. However they tend to be very expensive.

If you can run duct work from the basement to the second floor, then I think a good solution would be a 95%+ efficiency furnace and AC only. If you have a gas furnace then the only reason you would get a heat pump is because your gas rates are high, and your electric rates are low. If you post your utility rates we can compare the fuel costs of the furnace versus the heat pump.

The other thing you should insist your contractor do a heat and cooling calculation. If he refuses then find another contractor. He will have to estimate insulation values. It won't be precise but it is better than nothing in my opinion.

Mike: we have duct work in the 2nd floor bc we have central air from the air handler in the 3rd floor. So air comes from the vents and heat from the radiators. We currently have 4 zones in the house. We rarely turn on the 3rd floor except when my husband works from home.

And the house is incredibly insulated. We have all new windows and when we did a renovation 4 years ago we reinsulated the entire house.

And we would have 2 condensers for the house - one for the 1st floor and one for the 2nd & 3rd floors.

Two questions:

1. does the hybrid system use gas all the time or the times when the temp is 40+ it uses electric? That’s the only confusing part for me
2. Are there hybrid condensers that have various temperatures where they activate the furnace? 40 deg? 20 deg? If so, how does the price of the unit vary for the temperatures?

Hybrid systems AKA duel fuel set ups are controlled to perform how you want them to based on temperatures and or fuel costs to minimize operating expenses depending on what the weather is doing. If a certain portion of the system performs poorly during really cold weather, then the more costlier fuel option of the furnace is used to provide heat for the structure.

A gas furnace will still need electric to operate blower / control related aspects, but the fuel used for heating can be Natural Gas, Propane etc. Or if the furnace is a fuel oil burner, boiler etc. These things are often coined as emergency heat or backup heating.

Back up heating can also be electric strip heat, for situations in which there are no other fuel choices. A heat pump is much more energy efficient than electric strip heat. The off set of operational cost can be as much as 75% less, depending on a host of various factors in terms of all electric heating systems.

Sizing of the heat pump can be a big factor among other things, as to when you would want to switch from heat pump operation to gas or other optional fuel for heating. It won't hurt anything to run the heat pump down to 10 or 15 degrees outside ambient temp before making the switch from heat pump to other optional heating fuel. If the system is set up properly the optional fuel part of the system is simply energized to take over if the heat pump defrost cycle is triggered.

Just realize that the heat pump won't produce as much heat at 10 or 15 degrees as opposed to 30 or 40 degree and higher (there's more heat in warmer outdoor air). A well insulated structure and this probably won't matter all that much. The control you use to switch over should be adjustable so if the initial set up is lacking at some point your servicing HVAC contractor can make simple adjustments as needed.

Pricing really depends on equipment selection, features, efficiency, controls. A more elaborate system could be 2 speed. Which can offset the cost due to efficiency of the system. A heat pump system would be used all year long as opposed to seasonal if it was air conditioning only.

The next step up from 2 speed would be completely variable. Those can be limited to 5 stages depending on manufacturer or completely variable the ability to ramp from 10-20% of capacity up to 110% of capacity. Obviously the completely variable system would cost more.

They are using mini split heat pumps a lot in Maine for heating in winter. The newer equipment goes down to around 0 degrees. Fujitsu and Mitsubishi are two frequent brands used. There will be back up heat of some sort. In newer construction with good insulation and air sealing, it might be just be electric baseboard heat.