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What would be the benefit of a firma understock for Abies koreana?

4 years ago

What would be the benefit of a firma understock for Abies koreana?

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User

4 years ago

Here's a previous discussion with some replies from some experienced people. hth

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Comments (7)

tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
4 years ago
Heat tolerance.

tj
Scott
Original Author
4 years ago
The reason I ask on here is that I can't seem to find any info on this. I know it is around I just have not found it yet. I also thought I saw that it is better in clay soils too but I can't verify that if I don't find it. Thanks for the one point.
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According to Keith Rushforth 'Conifers' they both fall into the same grouping which would mean they'd pollinate each other. Group 7: sibirica, semenovii, nephrolepis, sachalinensis, veitchii, koreana, sikokiana, kawakamii, lasiocarpa, balsamea, fraseri. Resin noted that Abies kawakamii has moved to within another group, however. This 'Group 2' which contains: alba, cephalonica, nordmanniana, borisii-regis, bornmuelleriana, nebrodensis, equi-trojani. Here's to My discussion with Resin: (Quoting Resin when I asked him about this earlier): Q Are Rushforth's groupings of conifers a way for me to gather information on which may/will pollinate one another? "Yes, within Abies fairly acccurately so. There's been one or two changes in the composition of some of the groups with subsequent genetic evidence (Abies kawakamii moved from Group 7 [balsamea etc.] to Group 4 [homolepis etc.]; and Groups 2 [alba etc.] & 3 [pinsapo etc.] merged into one group), but they've held up to genetic investigation quite strongly." Here's Rushforth's Groups: Group 1 bracteata. Group 2 alba, cephalonica, nordmanniana, borisii-regis, bornmuelleriana, nebrodensis, equi-trojani. Group 3 pinsapo, numidica, cilicica, tazaotana, marocana Group 4 firma, homolepis, recurvata, pindrow, gamblei, chensiensis, holophylla, beshanzuensis [kawakamii]. Group 5 amabilis, mariesii. Group 6 spectabilis, densa, delavayi, forrestii, fabri, fargesii, squamata, chengii. Group 7 sibirica, semenovii, nephrolepis, sachalinensis, veitchii, koreana, sikokiana, [kawakamii - moved to group 4], lasiocarpa, balsamea, fraseri. Group 8 grandis, concolor, durangensis, coahuilensis, mexicana, guatemalensis. Group 9 procera, magnifica. Group 10 religiosa, vejari, hickelii, oaxacana. Noting once again that Rushforth's groupings of Group 2 and 3 have now merged... 'with strong genetic investigation' - Resin. Rushforth, Keith ÂConifersÂ (1987); First published in the United States in 1987 by Facts On File, Inc., 460 Park Avenue South, New York, New York 10016; ISBN: 0-8160-1735-2. Dax
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Again, Treehaven Evergreen Nursery 'Hilltop Tree Farm' sells Abies firma, just about anything Abies. It's my favorite nursery and Don is like speaking to your best friends father, that's at least how I envision him. He sent me (for free among tons of "free stuff" because we talk on the phone...) (4) Abies firma three feet tall. Cost for a seedling that size might be 2.49 cents, just a guess. I suspect they'll be cold hardy and grow very well here. Grafting...shoot. I could graft those all day long at his prices. He also sells 1 foot plugs of Abies firma (50) for like .50 cents each. I just happened to buy a lot of Canaan fir and Nordmann fir at a very big caliper. These are my "extra's." Quickly, the deal with grafting firs is that some species are "white-barked." e.g. Korean, alba, etc- those should be grafted to something very heat tolerant and Canaan fir fits this bill. The others should be grafted to something else very heat tolerant such as Nordmann which is the one used. Firma would be a replacement for Nordmann. It's important to have barks matching with firs. Dax
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I'm glad you're glad. It's very much an academic point to me anyhow, as, very unlike the case with rhododendrons, I seldom see how such crosses are improvements over the parent species. (The main thing you need to improve on with alpine Abies is their weak root system in hot climates, a problem more easily resolved with grafting.) And especially the wondrously subtropical-looking Abies pindrow. I can't imagine how this hybrid of it would be interesting to me...except academically. I was aware of it after all! In a big field of many conifer cultivars at the late lamented (by me at least!) Dilworth Nursery in Oxford, PA, the Abies pindrow really stood out from the pack. I kick myself for not taking a picture of that one, but of course I had no idea the nursery would be gone in less than a year. I guess they were too proud to announce to a potential customer that they were about to go under. Of course, I was crestfallen back in the early 2000s when they converted to wholesale - had they stayed retail/mail order, I no doubt would have bought many plants there over the years when I started my current garden in 2006. By the time they went back to retail sales in 2012 as a last ditch effort to stay in business, I already had a lot of what they were selling.
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what about transplant shock.. and lack of full establishment.. some how affecting true color???? i doubt you can come to any conclusions.. until your plant is fully established ... next.. go back to your link pic ... its been manipulated .. you can tell from the deep dark shadows behind .. finally .... size matters ... i have had many a variegated conifer.. that did not produce proper color.. until it was big enough.. that you could not see thru it ... its not that its not producing it... its that your eyes cant truly appreciate it ... regardless .... coloration is variable as to time of year ... subject to so many variables.. that only God knows whats going on ... i have had some.. that dont turn until very late winter... and other years the same plant is early .... and none seems to have turned this late fall ... they are getting there.. but very slowly ... was it last years drought.. this years drought and heat ... an early cold snap that slowed them down before the change was triggered.. do they just hate me ... how the heck do i know ... sooner or later.. they will color up ... i suspect you are feeling ripped off .. you werent sent what you thought you bought.. i dont think you can jump to the conclusion ... yet ... today mine is the usual sickly chlorotic yellow [from 350 away on the patio .. i am not walking out there] .. surely not as sparkly as the link pic ... but its early ... ken ps: heck.. even pot fertilizer can effect such ... IMHO ... and since it was a recent potling.. who knows what its status is in that regard ... pps: as to the link pic .. all the power to them .. i would have darkened the pic for contrast also ... all i was saying was that you will be hard pressed to see that plant in full sunshine with your eyeballs .... ppps: its color should basically be consistent with A k Aurea ... do you have that one??? pppps: .. do you see any indication of the graft??? ... can you r/o understock????
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davidrt28 (zone 7)
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
seedling A. koreana probably has a fare amount of heat tolerance...I think it would be ok in western KS if correctly sited, watered as needed for a monsoon species in the high plains, and in the right soil.

with a cultivar, the main 'benefit' for most people with firma, is simply "being a rootstock other than a more common one that is sensitive to root rot". A lot of non-PNW nurseries used to use Canaan Fir or Concolor fir, and PNW ones used either used Canaan, Balsam, Concolor, or even worse, PNW native firs. i.e., worse for people trying to grow them on the east coast. In my rainy northeastern corner of Murlund, NO western fir survives for very long. Nor do high elevation/northern tier ones like Canaan or Balsam. OTOH, various low to moderate elevation Asian species are doing great, like Abies firma (of course), Abies ernestii, and Abies pindrow. Two high elevation A. delavayi died of root rot, but a 3rd seems ok, so far.

That being said, depending on how far west in KS...I sort of image western firs like Concolor start to be seen in gardens?
Scott thanked davidrt28 (zone 7)
Scott
Original Author
4 years ago
I have an Abies koreana 'Silberlocke' that was probably 4 years old when I got it but I now have had for 8 years. I also have a 'Cis' that I have had the same amount of time. Other than the Silberlocke not growing in a Christmas tree shape yet, it is growing well. The Cis is growing like crazy and is already 30" wide and 14" high. They don't have a full sun setting but must be getting enough to grow that fast.

I have tried Concolor several times and even the Abies lasiocarpa var. Arizonica 'Glauca Compacta' with no success. I know I did something wrong, maybe too much water or too clay of a soil and should have amended it to get it started. Usually if I can get a plant started I can get it to grow because my soil is very fertile. I just don't know what the Concolor likes I guess.

I'm about 67 miles from the Colorado border but there are no Concolors around that I have ever seen. It is hot (many days of over 100 with a lot of wind, 20mph +) and dry in the summers so nothing natural for sure. Although this spring has been wetter (11+inches) than normal which is actually tougher for me than dry because I can't control the moisture that goes into my clay soil. No one that I know of grows Concolors either. I will keep trying and maybe one of those may take one day in the right place. It's only money and you can't take it with you. :)
Scott
Original Author
4 years ago
Bill, where in MN are you from?
User
4 years ago
Middle of nowhere, 50 mi. from anywhere.

But I'm not from this area. ;^)

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