How was the shower constructed? (If you can take a picture of the contract, that’d probably be easiest.) Do you have in-process photos? Also, please upload larger pics—at the highest resolution possible—without marking them up.

This is an uneducated guess. Is it about 4' off the floor? That could be the location of the seams in the concrete board, and they may not have been taped.

Hi Sammy, I dont have the contract with me, but I know they installed the cement board onto the studs and the tile, that's it. It that because of the darker tile towards the bottom rows? Also if you measure up from the floor to the crack its about 3 feet, which is the size of the cement board. I dont have any pics with the cement board

It is basically a straight line. About 3’ up. Does sound like the cement board seam was not taped.

Not a contributor more than likely but every change of plan should be caulked and I see grout in that corner. What waterproofing system was used over the cement board as cement board is not waterpoof? Or did he use poly behind the cement board?

no caulk or waterproofing system was used

Well there can bee your starting point for the tiler to redo the entire shower. What type of contract did you have with him? What does it states about standards to be followed and procedures for waterproofing?

nothing about water proofing

no water proofing on the walls, just a rubber membrane for the shower floor.

What sort of warranty? Licensed and insured? True tile setter or handyman? Because this is incorrect installation and things only get worse.........................

A contractor. He offered to repair from the crack down.

Using totally professional and polite language (that you would be willing to have published on the front page of your local newspaper), email the contractor asking why he didn't install any waterproofing. Wait for his answer. Then email him back. In the same polite and professional tone, tell him that industry standards say showers need waterproofing on the walls, and ask him to re-build the whole thing with proper waterproofing. Ask him to type up the details as a new contract with an amount due of $0, and ask which day he would like to start. Wait for his answer. Then post his answer on here.

I received a response about this last night.

"I've done over 50 bathrooms, Hardibacker is water proof. The seams get sealed and that's it. The floor gets a rubber membrane under the cement mud bed"

Currently, he plans on coming to repair it in a few weeks from the crack down.

Was that response by email? If not, email him back and confirm your understanding of his answer so that you can have it in writing. Any and all communication from this point forward must be by email. If there is any verbal communication, follow up with an email to confirm your understanding of the talk, so that you have a record of the communication.

I'm really sorry that this has happened to you. I have had to type so many versions of "getting our money back from a hack," I can't re-type it again. Give me an hour and I'm going to type it in Word so I can just paste it over and over again on this forum.

His response by text.

Thanks for the helpful feedback. I really appreciate it.

Email the text to yourself so if your phone breaks you will still have it. Also, all other texts.

It is not waterpoof. It is unaffected by water by but it is by no means waterproof.

Part 1:

I'm sorry this is so long, but I hope it helps you and others.

When we decided to remodel our master bathroom, I started reading the bathroom forums on garden web and John Bridge. I drew up what I thought we wanted to do, worked with an independent designer paid for “real” drawings.

I contacted local GCs, three provided proposals. I asked each this question: "How do you build and waterproof a shower?" You would not believe the answers I got. Here are some examples:

“I have a great handyman who does our tile. He’s never had a call back.

“It’s important that the drywall is really flat. Then you put thinset and the tile on that. The grout is the thing that makes it waterproof.”

“You don’t really need anything because you have central AC; that’s basically like waterproofing because it keeps your house dry.”

“A sloped floor is nice but not really needed.”

None of the proposals said anything about waterproofing, just phrases like “frame, and tile the shower.” I followed up asking for into on the waterproofing steps and materials. They responded, but with really vague descriptions. One of them wrote “waterproof the shower.” Another typed “Install cement boards. Apply Red Guard.” We kept looking. I contacted every pro I could find in my area, GCs and individual tile professionals. I went on CTEF to search (not one resulting hit had a working phone number within hundreds of miles, and we are in a major city with millions of people). I asked at tile shops, asked for references from friends and co-workers. I widened my search going out over 200 miles. I phone-screened asking one simple question: "How do you build and waterproof a shower?" To that question, I got the same kinds of answers that I listed above, the most hilarious one was “We put a pan liner on the floor under the tile; you don’t need anything else if you’re careful not to splash.”

Finally, ONE GC described their waterproofing process using all the “right words” that did comport with the information I had read on John Bridge and GW. I asked him to put in the contract that he would follow industry standards and manufacturer’s instructions. His references checked out, and I was able to see 2 of his projects, at least he said they were his projects. The scope of the project was the whole bathroom, not just the shower.

The project started in the summer of 2017. We paid a deposit upon signing the contract, demo began, and we made another payment about 5 days later.

Part 2:

Note: I always take before, during and after pictures. It’s fun to look back on the changes. It’s not to “catch” anyone doing anything wrong; I do it with every project whether it’s DIY or with a contractor.

So the project started, summer of 2017:

Day 1: Demo, photos

Day 2, 3 and 4: Framing, photos

Day 5, 6: Plumbing, photos

Day 7: Shower floor pre-slope *, photos

Day 8: Pan installed, photos

Day 9: Poly attached to studs **, photos

Day 10: Hardi backer installed, photos

Day 11: Red Guard applied onto Hardi backer ***, photos

Day 12: More Red Guard, photos

Day 13: Tiling started, photos

Evening of Day 13: I arrived home in the late evening to find tile was partially installed, but in a very sloppy manner. There were tiles hanging off at angles, huge gaps, rough cuts, butt-joints, gigantic lippages, and some very strange-looking damaged tiles that made me think they didn’t have the right cutting tools. I took photos and texted the GC to ask him to come over the next day to inspect and figure out what to do.

Day 14: I was gone part of the morning taking a kid to the doctor; got home mid-morning. All the workers were gone and most of the tile had been ripped off the shower walls and thrown all around the bathroom; it was a huge mess of broken tiles. I wasn’t even sure if the GC had come here or not. I texted GC to ask what happened and what the plan was to complete the bathroom. By email he sent me a message saying that the foreman had quit the project.

Day 14: Tile ripped from the walls, photos ****

We set up a meeting with GC for that Friday which was in 4 days. During the 4-day interval, I reached out to the gardenweb community, posted my photos and asked for help. We were really shocked; after all these years of home ownership and other renovations, we had never had a project go south like this. The GW response was very helpful, but also kind of harsh. I did get helpful pro advice, but I also got accused of hiring cheap, trying to
get champagne results on a beer budget, etc, etc, none of which we did, but it’s a common comment here, and is sometimes quite true. I asked if they had built the dreaded “moisture sandwich,” and the pros on here said yes they had. The pros also told me to look at the curb and the floor because those were also done wrong.

Part 3:

Regarding my photos and the dates above, I didn’t know it at the time, but they showed:

* they did not install a pre-slope, just slapped a pan on the uneven sub-floor

** there was a first vapor barrier (poly)

***there was second vapor barrier (Red Guard), thus creating the “moisture sandwich”

**** photos revealed spot-setting after tile was ripped down

I kept reading and saw some references to TCNA. I had previously searched CTEF for a contractor with no luck, but I had never gone on the TCNA site. I went to the site, and bought a downloadable version of the current year’s tile handbook and read all the shower chapters.

The Friday meeting with the GC started with us expressing concerns and ended with GC agreeing to work up a completion plan over the weekend.

Monday: GC sent email saying he has “decided to stop work on the shower.” We asked by email if that meant he was quitting entirely, and he never answered us. We sent a few follow up emails asking the same question over the next 2 weeks, but GC had gone radio-silent. No response.

(Hmmm. We are a large family who now has a trashed, unusable bathroom, with no sinks, no toilet, no bathtub, no shower, broken tile all over the place, and a rag shoved in the toilet flange; and a GC who just went underground.)

After a couple of weeks, we decided to just accept the fact that we made a really bad hire, say goodbye to the lost money, find a new contractor, and get this mess cleaned up and re-built. We didn’t think suing the quit-GC was something we wanted to do because it sounded like a real PITA. But we did send a demand letter by certified return receipt asking for a refund. It was received and signed for. No response.

Again, I went back on gardenweb and asked for help. I started interviewing tile pros and GCs again, running into the same old problem that I had before. No one could answer this question “How do you build and waterproof a shower?” with any words that even remotely corresponded to the information in the TCNA book, or any of the pro advice I read on this forum or the John Bridge forums.

Luckily, a pro on GW gave me referral to a real pro in my city. He came up to diagnose the shower mess and wrote up a proposal to complete the project. He prepared a report on the bad work cross referencing all the violations to local plumbing codes, TCNA and ASNI industry guidelines. When I asked him “How do you build and waterproof a shower,” he walked me through all the steps and materials he uses. We talked about the drain, the waterproofing materials, how he builds the pre-slope, pros and cons of different tile materials, tub selection, lighting considerations, etc, etc, etc. It was so refreshing; it was hard for me to act cool, and I figured if I acted too happy, he would multiply his price by 10. He wrote up a report for us detailing everything the quit-GC had done wrong, and wrote up a proposal. We hired him.

So, the new project began. In 32 work-days, with a few breaks here and there for planned vacations and some really bad weather, the whole bathroom was re-demoed and re-built soup to nuts. Customer was happy and contractor was paid in full.

Part 4:

A few weeks later the quit-GC sent us a bill for money he said he had already paid his cabinet person to build the vanity. This was the first we had heard from the quit-GC in months. We responded that we would not pay this bill, and attached a copy of our previous refund request. No response. We were on the fence about the possibility of suing the GC in justice court, but it just seemed like such a pain, we kept putting off the decision.

A few weeks later, the quit-GC sued us. DH downloaded and read our state’s laws of civil procedure and the state laws governing construction projects. DH researched the process and decided we would represent ourselves, which is called “pro se.” So began several months of us filing things, and the quit-GC filing things in court.

Our counter-suit asked for the amount of money we had initially paid, plus the costs of all the ruined materials that we had to re-purchase, plus the amount of money we had to pay the new contractor to re-demo and re-build the shower portion of the project, plus court costs. DH created a very detailed financial analysis with all costs itemized so that an apples-to-apples comparison could be made. For example, when we re-purchased materials, we bought more expensive tiles, so it would be unfair to claim that cost against the quit-GC. DH’s financial analysis boiled it all down so that we could clearly identify the dollar amount of financial harm the quit-GC had caused. In mediation we offered all the way down to about a third of the amount of the suit and they never moved from zero. We could have agreed to zero and just walked away, but then there would be no public record of what the quit-GC had done. We wanted the quit-GC’s actions in the public record because if not he could just go on screwing people in the community with impunity, knowing he could do hack-level work, harm customers, quit jobs, and no one would ever know.

Trial occurred, and the judgement was in our favor for the full amount of our counter-suit, plus pre-judgement and post-judgement interest. Now we are starting the collection process, but that’s a whole other subject.

Looking back on it, it was a real PITA; that’s why we didn’t initiate this whole chain of events in the first place. If the quit-GC had not sued us, we would have just moved on, but after he sued, we had to respond.

Part 5:

So, after this whole saga, I have some advice for anyone dealing with a similar situation.

1. Of course, always try to hire a real pro in the first place, not a hack like we did.
2. Look up and read, or buy, relevant industry information that relates to the type of project you are dealing with, such as local codes, ASNI, TCNA, etc. Also read the manufacturer’s instructions for the products your contractor is using.
3. Take BEFORE pictures. It’s fun to look back on the ugly before pictures and see how you improved your home.
4. Take DURING pictures every single day. It’s fun to look back on the in-progress photos. I’ve been taking in-progress pictures of all our project for 30 years. If you work from home like I do, it’s easy. Take pics when the workers leave for lunch and in the evening after they leave for the day. Don’t interfere in the work space, or take pictures while they’re working. Take pictures of every part of the project from different angles including all the buckets of products they have left in the space and all the tools and such that are sitting around. If you don’t work from home, take pictures when you get home at night. If you are traveling and have decided to let the contractor work while you’re gone, ask a friend or neighbor to come over and take pictures for you each evening (give them a really nice thank you gift).

Note: Last year the sibs and I helped my Dad remodel his whole vacation home which is 1000 miles away. I was able to go up once and sibs were able to go up twice. We all took tons of in-progress photos. When I was up there, tiling was about to begin. I looked up the installation instructions for the wall-board material they were using for the showers. There were no rolls of fiberglass tape amongst all their supplies and products, but it was called for in the instructions. I emailed the GC and expressed concern that the tile pro might not be planning to tape and seal the boards. The GC took care of it and the project proceeded. The GC was very professional and responsive, and it all worked out, but what if I hadn’t taken pictures, read the manufacturer’s instructions for myself, and brought up this issue?

5. If an issue comes up during the project, email or meet with the GC and it will probably get resolved. Confirm the resolution by email to ensure everyone is on the same page.

6. If your project goes seriously south like ours did when the GC quit, or if your project is really messed up and you are upset with the botched job, still try to have a meeting with the GC and ask them to provide a plan for moving forward to complete the project. Confirm all the communications by email so that there is a record of the communications. Confirm the understanding of any verbal agreements by email.

7. If you and GC are not in agreement, or they quit, then you really have to pause and think about what to do.

-- If the GC quits out-right like in our case: Ask for a refund by email or send a demand letter certified return receipt. Then embark on the process of finding a new contractor to re-do your project. After GC says no to the refund request, you can let it go like we did, or decide to sue them in justice court (small claims) or district court.

-- If GC sues you, like our quit-GC did, you need to respond and go through the process. You’ll need to download and read your state’s civil procedure laws and construction laws. It is a real PITA, but you have to go through the process.

-- No matter who is suing whom, you have to decide whether or not to hire a lawyer. In our case it was just a bathroom, not a whole house, so we decided to represent ourselves. If something like this had happened on a whole house build or remodel worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, well, then I think we’d be hiring a lawyer because the stakes would be so much higher.

8. If the GC still wants to fix things: Ask them to write up their plan and send it to you by email, and then make your home available for them to attempt the fix. Take pictures the same as explained above.

9. If the fix really does fix things, that’s great.

10. If/after the fix fails, you are allowed (under most states’ construction laws – you need to read the law in your state) to fire them. We don’t have any experience with firing a contractor, we’ve never done that. But in our research, we learned that you have to give the contractor a chance to fix things before firing them. You can’t just get mad and fire someone because you have a concern, or even if they really did legit screw something up. You have to give them one crack at fixing it.

Reflecting on the trial – why I think we won:

We had a bench trial which means you are just talking to the judge and witnesses, no jury. DH conducted the case and called 4 witnesses: the quit-GC, the foreman, me, and the new contractor. We were well organized and prepared, but it was still surprisingly nerve-wracking; I was sweating and felt like I was going to throw up all day. Do the “superman” pose; it really helps. Do it at home, in the elevator, in the bathroom; seriously, it helps. Neither one of us had ever even talked to a judge before.

Here are the important things we did that I think made the difference for us.

1. DH prepared and organized all the important documents. He wrote out his opening statement so he could read it instead of talking off the cuff. He had all the exhibits prepared to hand to the judge, and copies to give to the plaintiff. He had extra exhibits on hand that he thought he might need in case the judge asked certain types of questions.
2. All the emails and text messages were put together in one exhibit in chronological order.
3. DH organized his statement and exhibits into 2 “chapters.” The purpose of the first chapter was to prove to the judge that we gave the GC a chance to remedy the situation, and that the GC had quit, not been fired. The purpose of the second chapter was to show why the amount of money we were seeking was justified. For that we used the new contractor’s report and the photographs of the bad work to show that it was necessary for the new contractor to demo all the way back and start over, and that new materials had to be purchased. And the financial analysis showed how we got to the number. The new contractor’s report and photos cross-referenced each problem to city plumbing codes, TCNA, and ANSI, and he walked the judge through the whole report and photos, explaining how things were done incorrectly.

I wish this kind of situation would never happen to anyone, but sadly, it will. When projects start, you never think they are going to go south like this. But just in case it does:

- Have a contract.

- Take before and during photos.

- Use email and text for all communications instead of relying on verbal communications and agreements.

- Assume that your communications will, one day, end up in the public record, and make sure you always use professional language.

AJCN, Thank you for such a clear picture of what a person can do and how to do it.

Thanks AJCN. Excellent advise.

AJCN i think you should make a separate thread with all of your experiences (if you haven't already). This is very important and helpful information for people to read (before, during, and after a reno).

Wow. AJCN fabulous documentation of your experience and how and why you succeeded!

Licensed tile contractor is responsible for all the shower wall waterproofing unless I install the hot mop shower pan. All my tile contractors use mud walls (reinforced cement build continuously into a single unjointed piece). Old school, but reliable. Most of the shower fail posts involve backer board or direct to drywall.

Since your wall framing is existing, studs dried via age, I suspect something had to move to crack these walls. Possibly water intrusion at the pan level or backer board joints expanding old lumber. Photos appear to have moisture soaking into the stone (that's authentic marble?) in the lower rows, so that's my primary suspect.

Unless you were pounding on the walls at that level with a large sledge hammer.

I have a great deal of respect for the knowledge of my tile contractors. DIYs, handymen and general contractors often screw it up unless trained by a pro. Most of the work in a shower happens before the tile arrives on the job.

Sooner or later, a tile pro or two will comment on your post. Pay attention to those.

OP, did you go onto TCNA to get a download of the tile handbook?

Here's a link to their publications page:

https://www.tcnatile.com/products-and-services/publications/218-english-publications.html

I'm just a homeowner, but I did not find this handbook at all difficult to read and understand. The info in the handbook will help you talk to your current contractor about your concerns, and will help you hire your next contractor when/if your current one fails to fix things.