"although there is nothing natural about a garden."" It seems to me that gardens are about nature in that they are based on it. They are our ideas of nature refined. "I believe gardens exist that have few or no plants, yes? I absolutely agree. In trying to recreate our refined version of nature, there are instances where plants are not part of it. One example I'm thinking of is the extreme zen garden. And I've heard of stalagmite formations in a cave being referred to as "stalagmite gardens." It seems to me that this is appropriate. I'd also like to make the point that there are times when nature produces eye-candy spaces that can readily be referred to as natural gardens. Those gardens existed before man. "are they gardens or landscapes? I admit to difficulty in understanding the difference..." The difference is not of substance, but of degree. A landscape is a garden. A garden can be as haphazard as its owner wishes and still rightly be called a garden. At one extreme it can come from the casting of mixed seeds on freshly plowed ground or the whimsical assemblage of found objects. But in fact, it would be the extreme rare instance where someone created a garden and did not wish to impose some semblance of organization or function into it. That imposition of additional rules and constraints is the imposition of rules of LANDSCAPE. Today, we would never see a garden that does not use SOME rules of landscape. "Landscape" only describes additional constraints, not a different style or structure. But in our never ending efforts to categorize and define, we need a way to describe a garden that is fine tuned based on functional and organization aspects. The best word we have at this time is LANDSCAPING. But the truth is that no garden today exists without some rules of landscaping interposed. Therefore, it'd be impossible to say that the vast majority of gardens were not to some extent, landscapes. And from the start, it'd be impossible to say that all landscapes were not also, gardens. Rarely is a built plot of ground so extreme that it falls neatly into one camp. The divvying up comes in determining how much the functional/organizational needs are tended to vs. how much they are not. "What makes a garden successful?" I submit that it is not how much the design criteria is met, but that it is how much joy it brings to the users. Which means that if the design criteria is haywire (which it sometimes is) the design can be successful when not meeting the criteria. But the joy a garden brings--which can happen purely by accident or as a creation of the unschooled--determines how much it is loved. And that determines its success.

Mary, First I would say relax you really can't do any harm to these guys. I have divided them by simply taking my shovel and cutting them in half right in place not disturbing the one half. I have also dug the entire clump up and cut the plant in half with a saw, replanting one half. I have also dug up and potted pieces of plant material for a swap forgot them under a shrub and re-discovered them three years later still happily growing and ready for this years swap. If your clumps are very large make certain your shovel has a sharp edge as it will be difficult to cut through. What other plants are you growing with your sedum?

Hi Beth, Welcome to RMG. Glad Steve steered you in our direction. I second everything Cnetter said. The upright sedums definitely stay in one place. The plant will just get a little bit bigger each yearÂbut right in the spot where you planted it. The groundcover sedums are mostly pretty safe too. They spread like a good groundcover should, but they spread by fairly shallow roots, so you can easily keep them pulled out around the edges if theyÂre getting bigger than you want. There are a few of the groundcover ones, though, that come pretty close to being invasive. The worst one I know of is Sedum album. If youÂre carrying a pot of it across the yard and even the tiniest little piece falls off, itÂll root whereverÂand I do mean whereverÂit lands. You just need to be really careful when youÂre carrying pots or pieces of it around, and itÂs no worse than the others in terms of just pulling out whatever you donÂt want. I have a thing about the groundcover sedums, but I have a very small yard, so I need to keep them contained. HereÂs a picture of 3 of them that have been in for over two years, and you can see IÂve been able toÂquite easilyÂkeep them where I want them. One thing that helps quite a bit with the groundcover sedums is to mulch thickly around them. Since the stems will root wherever theyÂre laying directly on top of soil, if theyÂre not on soil, they donÂt root, so all you need to do is cut them off. They will still continue to spread out some from the center of the plant, but, again, all you need to do is to keep pulling out what you donÂt want around the edges. IÂd have a thing for the upright ones too if I had somewhere to put them all! So donÂt be scared off by the sedumsÂand if youÂre wondering about any one in particular, just come ask. Somebody around here is bound to know about it! Hope to see more of you around here, Skybird P.S. Please excuse the ugly stepping stone in that picture! It's been replaced by a halfway decent looking piece of flagstone!

Hi Everybody! I can't believe how this week has flown by. Tomorrow is weigh-in day again! Other than more demolition on the kitchen, I haven't been getting my exercise. Actually, I should be doing my step aerobics right now, but here I am instead. The days are getting noticeably shorter, but the temperatures here are still warm. I guess we will be getting remnants of Ivan in the form of rain, rain, rain for the weekend. But I can't complain. My heart goes out to those affected more directly by the recent string of hurricanes. Well, I wore a pair of jeans today that I had not worn for a looong time. They fit, and were not tight. I know that the changes in my diet are really working. Yellowhair--I wonder if we will see Bunny Tracks here. I really love the Skinny Cow fudge bars. My DH is now eating them, too. You know, I have never had problems with my feet. But awhile back when I was trying to take long walks, I started having a problem with my big toe. It felt like it was sprained or something. It was very odd, but it just went away. DH has lots of trouble with his feet. I am sure it is just that we are getting older. Anyway, he has heel spurs, which are bony growths that kinda jab you from the inside. he has other things going on too, and has even been through physical therapy. He says they told him that whenever he is getting pain to quit whatever activity he is doing for awhile. In other words, if it hurts when you do that, don't do that! Kathy--When I first got into gardening and landscaping someone, who was a seasoned gardener, told me that a garden wasn't really yours until you had re-invented it about a million times. Well, they didn't say it quite like that, but that was the general meaning I took from it. I was fretting because the year before I had planted a shrub that I now thought would be in much better spot if I moved it just 4 feet. I wasn't sure it was worth it to go to the trouble. The advice I got was to go for it. I did, and I am still glad I did. And that is still my approach to gardening now. I am always seeing something that needs to be improved and gardening is all about the process. So it sounds like a change will be coming to your garden soon! DeeMarie--Talking about your commute reminded me of when I was doing that. Several years ago, I drove 50 miles one way to work. It took an hour and a half on most days with traffic and all. DH says I used to come home in the worst mood. It is interesting how we get ourselves into these things. I mean the trade-off for a job that you love vs. having more time for activities at home vs a nice paycheck vs whatever. I try not to regret the decisions that I make, but it sure seems that life is all about the trade-offs sometimes. On that note, I will wrap up this longwinded post. Eat healthy!!