Due to operational costs for California, you may want to consider Inverter system if you're utility costs are 20 cents per KWH or more.

The idea behind this strategy is that the AC will pay for itself because the Inverter System (all DC motors) use less electricity for the same cooling power you would get from a traditional system.

There are better systems than the Trane brand for this category.

If your utility costs are 14-15 cents per KWH this would be a toss up IMHO.

While humidity isn't a concern for your area, the operational cost is. The advantage to these AC inverter systems is not just humidity concerns but also operational costs.

If you decide on this category you want to make sure the unit you choose is rated for Southwest area (desert) and as high a SEER rating as you can get. This should be around 20 SEER for a Inverter AC system.

A 4 or 5 ton single stage system will cycle on and off more frequently with high air flow compared to a 2-stage system. The two stage system can be quieter most of the time and more comfortable. There is a small savings in operating costs since the system in less prone to short cycling.

The more efficient equipment makes sense in your region. You should be looking at the EER rating when comparing models with similar SEER ratings.

We know Austin is biased against Trane.

"There are better systems than the Trane brand for this category."

what's your recommendation on inverter type ACs and HPs?

TD

Thanks for the replies. House is 2740sqft looking at 2 3ton units or 3/3.5ton. Currently have 2 12seer R22 3.5ton units. XR17 comes with XV80 furnace, XR16 with XT80. Costs here are about 12cents per kWh. Coming from what I currently have, I wasnt sure if the upgrade would be worth the cost or if I’d necessarily notice a significant comfort difference? Also should I take into consideration a difference in future repair costs, granted both are 10yr warranties?

You should do your own checking - look on your bills - but if you're in Palm Springs, that's Southern California Edison territory, your usage is likely to be at 24 cents per kwh and if you use a lot of power, at 42 cents. See link to SCE website

Or. maybe you have a different provider? There a quasi-municipal district outside the city limits that has cheap power. If that's your provider, you're saving a lot of money.

SCE rates

The summer design temperature for Palm Spring CA is 110 degrees F. That's higher than Phoenix AZ!

What do you set you indoor temperature in the summer? How well did the two 3.5 ton condensers perform when it was over 110?

Yes we are on the east end of the valley so SCE is luckily not our provider. In summer, 78 is our set temp. Only when we have a couple days over 120deg did it struggle. In the 110s it was comfortable with the 2 3.5s.

Not clear on the size of the outdoor condensers quoted. This is two systems being quoted? XR17, what size? XR16, what size? Even to cover your extreme heat, that's a lot of BTU firepower. How is your overhead insulation and windows?

TD

If your utility rate is 12 cents a KWH I think single speed is your best bet because you're in the desert. If you had more humidity or higher utility rate the choice might be a bit more difficult, but because you're in the desert there is no real humidity threat.

The reason I am biased against Trane is unfair part prices, plus their equipment isn't any better than anything else.

How could I have such an opinion? I actually fix air conditioners. Not just an opinion based on forum board hyperbole. I've been doing this for 24 years, 11 years running my own HVAC company. I service the Katy, Texas area.

With that said American Standard (Trane in another wrapper), Lennox and Carrier do the same thing to some extent. (choices can be few, that's why you look for a service provider first... if they happen to be a dealer of one of the aforementioned brands... you will pay more for parts once the warranty runs out. )

I even made a video about it... see for yourself...

In some cases some dealers may require you to pay for annual service and if you don't do it, they may hold you hostage when the system breaks.

I don't play these games. I am a true HVAC service provider.

Regardless of the advertising gimmicks, brand, what's promised, what's not promised... they all break. You will always need a good HVAC service provider.

What is a good service provider: one that doesn't bash a brand without good cause. One that is available everyday. Not 8-5 Monday thru Friday. Work on and repair all brands. While I am vocal on brands to avoid, I still repair them all summer long.

Guess what today is? Sunday: Mother's day.

I am the owner of a HVAC service company posting to a forum board for an area I do not service.

Do your homework!

Again, I service the Katy, Texas area. Happy Mother's Day.

that's OK Austin, you are entitled to your opinion but you failed to answer the question.

"There are better systems than the Trane brand for this category."

So what is your recommendation for high end split type inverter AC/HP systems?

TD

Nice video, Austin. I took the time to watch it. I have three take-aways:

The problems you're blaming Trane for are situations that do not involve Trane at all.

Situation #1 was a failed motor - your video showed clearly it was manufactured by a company named Genteq. So it was a purchased part manufactured by a different company that failed. Your gripe is similar to blaming Ford if your car has a flat tire. I'll bet other manufacturers use this motor too.

The image in #1 I think showed a white electrical wire that appeard to be touching the exhaust pipe of the furnace. I hope you moved it away.

#2 was a failed capacitor, also a purchased part. Isn't this a common failure with AC units?

#3 had to do with mice eating wire. This surely has nothing to do with the equipment.

As just a homeowner, I have no experience with Trane spares pricing nor that of any other company.

Keep an open mind. In the meantime, you're a pleasant looking guy, you may have missed your calling by not going into show business.

Best regards,

So what is your recommendation for high end split type inverter AC/HP systems?

TD

Tiger, HVAC is a service business. If you're local to me you can get my opinion that way. My opinion outside of a forum board isn't free, parts of my opinion aren't freely given... because then I sink to irrelevance. Plus what is here today, may be gone tomorrow. How many times do old posts resurface on this board?

The vast majority don't view the HVAC market as a market that changes.

The HVAC market is continually evolving. Remember I am not a tech or installer with no sway in what is chosen as a particular product to air condition or heat a structure.

This is a forum board to serve the world. I don't serve the world in that way.

If I offer my opinion on equipment, people will have vastly different experiences than if I were involved in the equation, other than just accepting my opinion then using someone else to do the work. How do you think I know this from my own market in Katy, Texas?

If I give my whole opinion so freely... there is no worth to it. Value. This is a mile in my shoes kind of thing, I don't expect you to fully understand it.

Another way of putting this is: You're not buying a toaster. That you simply plug in.

You have to understand the point... I've installed probably over 1000 pieces of equipment since I started my HVAC company 11 years ago. Of those pieces they make up about 7 different brands.

There is nothing wrong with any brand equipment (If there were how is it I have all this free time?), in terms of the name on the side of the unit. I've installed nearly every brand there is. I've repaired far more. (There are only 7 major manufactures of HVAC equipment... but a plethora of different models, features, functions, and cow dung mixed in between those models...)

The problem, as I see it when it comes to certain brands: Prices charged for parts that were chosen by the manufacturer to build the unit. In the case of Trane, their own advertising says it's hard to stop a Trane. The blower motor they chose some how lets them off the hook? I don't think so.

It's easy to argue that Trane didn't make the blower motor as Mr. Fudd suggests, but it's far harder to argue the price they charge for that part when compared to other manufacturers part prices not to mention that Trane was the entity that chose that blower motor for their system that is often sold as being better than something else.

The part price for Trane blower motor shown in video above is nearly 5 times that of a competing brand that I've sold in the past.

If I (a one man company) has installed over 1000 pieces making up 7-8 different brands has all this time to make videos, post in forum boards with lengthy posts... what does this tell you? Do I really have to point this out?

Thanks for watching the video.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Austin, I believe tigerdunes does work or is retired from working in the HVAC business, because he was accepted as an "in-industry" participant for another forum that requires proof of such background before giving permission to respond to homeowner questions. Which he has there. He can speak up to correct this comment if he wishes.

Elmer...your comment is true.

I don't care for persons making statements like Austin does occasionally without following through on his recommendation. Ever since he joined this forum, he has been a slammer on both Trane and sister company AmStd. He speaks as if his opinion is the final authority but making a statement about other inverter systems being better than Trane without backup is just an opinion. And we all know about how opinions work.

TD

Back to the OP's original question, I don't think you'll save any money on operating costs with a multistage system (unless its a significantly higher SEER) but it will be more comfortable. Parts are a little more expensive (an ECM fan motor for example is about 2-3 times more expensive and a similar sized PSC motor), but most repair costs are high because of labor charges.

The old timers who dis multistage systems are just Luddites.

for sktn

be careful here. your statement about the costs of ECM motors is not entirely accurate. The fixed single stage high eff blower motor is no where near the replacement cost of a two stage var speed ECM blower motor.

IMO

Tiger: I think we are in violent agreement here. A typical 1/3 HP PSC condenser fan motor is about $100 while the ECM equivalent is $200. A two stage ECM motor starts at a little over $300. Of course prices vary and unscrupulous repair guys may jack up the price even more.

Point is not to be afraid of multistage HVAC equipment just because an old timer wants nothing to do with it!

It's the same old saga of my brand is better than your brand.

Look I've said many times I don't care what brand it is. I even said in the video that I posted above, regardless of what brand unit you have I can fix it more often than not.

Cost is a derivative of what the manufacturer charges for parts.

If you have a Trane / American Standard, Lennox, Carrier, no name generic ----

I don't care. They all break just as much as any brand. I depend on units to break so I can repair them if that's feasible. (It's not always feasible to repair... in some cases it doesn't make sense if you are losing blower motors every 3 years and the parts house is charging big money for parts --(watch the video if you don't believe me).

The repair market is much larger than the install market and the HVAC installation market tends to make additional problems. Because this is a technical job, knowledge is required whether you like it or not.

I have valid reasons for not recommending Trane / American Standard. --- The price I pay for parts are passed down to you. Any company will do that. If it's not any better than anything else and they charge more for parts then what is the point?

If I pay 3 to 5 times more for parts at Trane / American Standard, Carrier & Lennox it's going to cost you more.

I already know every brand breaks. So all things being equal the difference is what I pay for parts to repair your HVAC system.

Cost of ownership.

Is my opinion any further stretched than what is displayed on this Trane review site that hasn't been white washed and scrubbed?

Choose what ever brand you want, they all break. Cost of ownership is a reality.

Look what I do for a living. What benefit could I possibly get in lying? Trane? Someone on Trane's payroll?

I'm not afraid of two stage, inverter, variable speed... if it's broken I can fix it. Again cost is a derivative of what the manufacturer is charging for parts. Not afraid to install it either.

With that said, a multi stage system in desert climate isn't really necessary IMHO.

I service the Katy, Texas area.