Hi, rina. I know wood chips are different than bark, but I saw a nursery that was using these mixed with some alder saw dust. In about a year it turned to this incredible black, rich "soil". The guy as the nursery said it breaks down better and more nutritious for the soil and depletes less nitrogen in the process. The wood chips I was seeking are about the size of medium bark in nurseries. In retrospect, I am glad I didn't try that. Works great outdoors, not sure about containers! The black bark is essentially composted evergreen tree bark. I say evergreen because it could be a mix of a number of different types here in the Pacific NW --- hemlock, fir, ceder, spruce, etc. I didn't screen it, it seemed plenty loose initially; small to medium size in comparison to bagged nursery store bark. It would have been o.k. had I added the peat and perlite per the formulas given here. Screening would have left just the larger pieces, but that would be quite a chore for the volume I was using! I repotted some of the plants using the 5:1:1 formula with my black bark and those are doing much, much, better. A gardening friend said "Think of it...bark is like big saw dust. If you pack it down it gets as hard as a board". That is essentially what happened when I used the black bark alone without the the perlite and moss. ;(

Hi Al, With all the ingredients in hand, I've started the sifting process and had a few questions. I'm trying to swap out 50 containers worth of soil so I'd prefer to do this in the most efficient way. I am using a 9x9 hardware cloth (.088" openings) to filter the fines. Here are the three ingredients I was able to source: 1) Shasta: Orchid Fir Bark: (1/8" - 1/4") http://shastabark.com/products.htm 2) Turface MVP 3) 1/8" Crushed Granite (Desert Gold) http://www.lyngsogarden.com/index.cfm?event=Display.Home.Product.Group&homeCategory=STONE&categoryid=1094&productgroup=PEBCOB&groupname=Pebbles%252C%2520Cobbles%2520%2526%2520%2520Colored%2520Gravel Questions: 1) It seems like it takes a decent amount of time to screen out the fines for one container. I also have constructed two other screens to be used to filter out the larger particles (a 1/4" for the large fir bark and a 9x9 (.1387") for the larger turface/granite). I'm assuming that at the end of the day it is more important to screen out the fines then to screen out the few larger pieces which may be in the mix. Would this be correct? I'm just trying to save some time and there doesn't seem to be that many larger pieces in the mixes. 2) Do you usually rinse out the mixes before you combine them? Does this help get additional dust/fines out? 3) What do you do with all the fines/dust that you sift out? If you are screening out larger pieces what do you with them? Thanks so much in advance. Your advice and guidance have been invaluable. Best, Kernul1

Notice: I am not looking for help, simply posting something that others may empathize with or find as astounding as I do (we often assume that because someone specializes in something that they really know what they are talking about. I know that's not true, but still am surprised when it happens.) So, I'm still on the hunt for products I can use to make different soil mixes that are a bit faster than what I'm using now. I want to do some experiments both with wicking large containers and wicking small containers, like for small houseplants. I have a friend who works at a florist and I mentioned it to her. She said she works with many of the growers so maybe they would know where to find these products. Today she was over, so we called the grower she thought might help. This grower has been growing flowers in greenhouses for many years. Tracy called, explained I was looking for some things, then turned the phone over to me. The conversation went something like this. "Hi Betsy, thanks for taking time to take to me. I do mostly container gardening and am looking to change my potting mix" blah, blah. "So, I'm looking for the following things, pine bark...." "Oh, why don't you just use my mix?" Great! I think. She's got one already made with bark in it. "What's it made of?" I ask. "Well, it's all natural soil. We don't believe in soilless mixes, especially not in containers. I mean, how are plants going to get nutrients, especially the minors?" "Um, from a fertilizer that supplies the minors?" I offered. "Oh, but that's not the same. You should try our mix." "Thank you, but that's not what I want to do at this time." "But, all of our customers love it! You really should try it." I won't go through the rest of the painful call, but suffice it to say, she didn't have what I wanted, nor could she point me to someone who did. I'm sure I'll get them all eventually, but I'd much rather get them easily in one place since I mostly ride a bike and will have to borrow or rent a car to run this all down. Just hoping anyone else who's had problems with this might get a chuckle out of the story. And, also, pointing out how amazing it is that even people with a LOT of experience can know very little when it comes to science or research.

Yes, I stated that I'm not worried about the aluminum, all the same I won't use aluminum sulfate either. Although it may be safe, I worry about toxic levels. Just because lead is in all soils doesn't mean it's a good idea to add more. Same with aluminum. And if you mix turface without a mask, you will be exposed to it. As far as water absorption Axis noted that turface holds 95% of it's weight in water. Pumice only holds 15% and DE holds 142% Try diatomaceous earth in your tests. Optisorb is about the largest size available to home gardeners. Axis makes an excellent size, but is for commercial use only. Numerous studies document it's use as superior to most other amendments. Such as " Effects of diatomite on soil consistency limits and soil compactibility" by Ekrem Lutfi Aksakala, Ilker Anginb, , , and Taskin Oztasa Or "Effects of diatomite on soil physical properties" by the same authors. Also "Sustainable effects of diatomite on the growth criteria and phytochemical contents of Vicia faba plants." Mona M. Abdalla* Department of Botany, Faculty of Science, Ain Shams University, Cairo, Egypt. The Axis company also has great info on all amendments. As far as particle size, do a test. Fill a pot with sand, and one with gravel. Stick a pole in, and see which one gives more resistance. It seems to me gravel would. But I might be wrong? I don't know physics well enough to figure it out on paper. Ah and pumice is further dashed to the ground and called a fake, not a single user rises to defend. Well we can agree to disagree, my day job is a laboratory researcher,or was, I'm retired. If turface has various pore sizes then it is not very well made. Thanks for pointing that out. So you do not believe the manufacturer? Controlling pore size in fired clays is often accomplished with the use of polymers such as Polyethylene glycol. This process is extremely important to control how well purifiers work, or how well they hold up with the addition of salts. You are incorrect about the pore size. Yes pore sizes differs, but that process is used to make different products, and is very controlled. Turface is meant to have small pores size or it would ineffective in it's intended use. The porosity of fired clays is extremely important to have a consistent product such as fired brick used to built houses. Varying pore sizes will compromise the strength of the brick. Selling a product and manufacturing one are very different things. The pore size I reported is for calcinated clay. Range of pore sizes is from .1 -.01 microns. Median is .045 . Plants need a .2 micron minimum pore size to utilize. This info is from a study by Andreas Kalytta-Mewes, Kathrin Mattern, and Armin Reller University of Augsburg, Chair of Solid Body Chemistry Georg Armbruster Soil Laboratory. The pore analysis in the study was conducted by Quantachrome,Bavarian Institute of Applied Environmental Research and Applied Technology. Of course it appears none of these sources trump Al. Who has not provided any data at all to back his claims. Please prove to me that pore size is bigger, thinking Al is right because you sell clay products is not proof. After saying all this will turface work? Yes, it will. Works pretty good! Is it ideal? No, it's not, but what is? It's still worth trying for sure. It didn't work for me, but that means nothing. it has worked well for others. It would be nice if it allowed easier access to stored water, but it does store water, and air, and it lasts a long time, maybe 20 years. That's decent. It's a decent product, or appears to be. It would not be on the market if it didn't work. I know it's not meant for potted plants, but it is meant for grass. DE seems a better product, it has it's own problems. it is marketed though for plants more than ball fields, although it is marketed for that too. It's marketed for large commercial gardens. I use it in my garden. I use turface too for my grass, works well. Just not that well in pots for me. All i said that it didn't work for me. Sorry blame me, it's what you usually do when the mixes fail, you blame the poster. Many have said DE doesn't work for them. I actually believe them. All gardening is local. This post was edited by Drew51 on Mon, Dec 29, 14 at 15:33