Oh, yeah. And I'm with Feathers on the disappointing fine dining. I regularly do go out to moderate restaurants with friends. There's one nearby that has really good, nutritious food. I've never had a bad meal there. But we often end up at a chain or dive with meh food, and when the server asks how it is, I generally say fine, because I wasn't expecting better and it was fine for what it was. I can't do that at fine dining. I might not complain so as not to be a downer and ruin the party, but if the food is poor, and too often it is, I won't eat it. I don't know what's wrong with these places that they can't have the consistent good food that the moderate place was. It seems to me that the food was better before the word "foodie" was coined. The "fine" at the cheap places is my "morning cup of coffee" in the video. It's food. It doesn't taste bad. I can name all the ways it could be better. The company is good. :)

Yes, as soon as I started roasting my own coffee instead of just drinking grocery store coffee, I found that "dark place". Suddenly, mediocre coffee became "bad" coffee. I stopped ordering coffee in restaurants because I just KNEW it was going to disappoint. Sometimes even coffee that should be good, wasn't. Eventually I got over it, but I appreciate the coffee I make at home more than I did before.

I'm generally disappointed at restaurants anyway. I always think that I could do at least as good, possibly better and for a lot cheaper. (shrug) I always thought it was simply a matter of personal preference because although I like my own cooking better, not everyone does. My Mother, for instance, will take KFC over my fried chicken every day of the week, and as far as Ashley is concerned there's nothing like Campbell's Cream of Mushroom soup, she won't eat my homemade version. So, you like what you like, I suppose. As taste is subjective and not objective, I don't try to convince either of them otherwise. If I'm with someone and they exclaim "isn't that good?" and I don't think it is, I just nod and mumble, LOL.

Annie

LOL! Annie, I love your attitude about things like the CoM (which I, personally, might call "sludge", though I also don't mind if people like it so long as they don't feed it to me. I like American cheese, after all). My problem is kind of the reverse. I'm hypercritical of my own cooking on the same knowing how to taste basis, and have to look pleased and say thank-you when people rave over something which I thought could have been better. :)

I suppose that I don't think that I should have or need the best of everything all the time and it certainly isn't in my budget.

I supposed I'm more interested in home made/well made good food on a daily basis.

That said, we're going to a Michelin starred restaurant a week Friday and I think I'll cry if I'm not gobsmacked! I have HIGH hope lol

I grew up eating good food, especially my mother's amazing baked goods. Julia Child (on tv!) taught me how to cook as a newlywed. I was at one time, a very, very good good. Even at 75 and doing only pretty simple cooking, I'm still a good cook.

Due to this, going out to eat at a mediocre restaurant is not something I have any desire to do. A group of women at my pulmonary rehab goes out to lunch every couple of weeks, but they go places where the food varies from mediocre to downright awful, so I decline the invitation to go with them. I've explained why - that I cannot bear to spend money on lousy food - but to them it tastes just fine and they just think I'm a food snob. Well, they're probably right! But perhaps "discerning" is a word I would prefer.

As to that "dark place" - my DD was taught about this when she was in Cornell's Hotel School. She said that after one graduates, one never again truly enjoys a meal in a restaurant or a stay in even the most amazing hotel, as one will always see the small faults/mistakes - impossible not to see them as that is what one has been trained to do! DD says it's true, but she says it also helps her (in the hotel/restaurant business) to experience true joy when she sees one of her properties truly meet her very high standards.

Anglophilia, I get it if you can't abide the food those in your group like, but if it's only the food that's holding you back (rather than lack of enthusiasm for the company), do go! Order a hard boiled egg and toast, or whatever they can't wreck too badly, and supplement your meal when you get home. I was once at a conference--long before I ventured into fine cooking--with beautifully plated and served inedible food. I pushed around the dinners and schmoozed. Most of the attendees were thrilled with the food. I was grateful for the nearby In-'N-Out drive thru with the extended nighttime hours. In-'N-Out may be a bit salty, but it's high quality for drive thru burgers. :)

plllog, I agree, the company is far more important to me than the food. I'd rather eat bologna with people I love than filet mignon with people I don't care about or have nothing in common with.

People seldom complain about my cooking, and I've had some training, after owning my own restaurant/bar. I rolled more pie crusts with a Kessler's bottle than I care to remember and we always had homemade breads and desserts as I like to bake more than I like to cook, so that was a big draw. People would go out of their way to come in because we had homemade pie, not those premade crusts or gelatinous pie fillings so ubiquitous at the chain restaurants now.

I doubt I'll bother to travel enough to find a Michelin starred restaurant of any type. When I travel I like to hit the local places and eat what they are famous for locally, whether it's Hatch chilies in New Mexico or coffee in Seattle, so I find those places and eat there. I figure if it's horrible I still tried it and I probably won't starve to death if I can't finish that particular meal. So I'm picky, but adventurous. :-) I'm definitely not a snob, I'll try anything, but I do have standards. Especially when it comes to coffee and beef. (grin)

Annie

I have fairly undemanding taste and will eat most anything without complaining.

The kids and I even eat KFC, once a year, when the craving overtakes us. Then the aftereffects make us stay away for the next year. It's like a yearly heroin habit.

In general, I enjoy the cooking more than the eating. Of course after cooking I want the food to look and taste good, but I'm usually not that interested in eating more than necessary to check that.

Espresso, on the other hand...I've been ordering shots on every occasion where previously I'd have had a coffee or latte, and I definitely am not pleased with most of the cafe-pulled shots.

I'm usually not that interested in eating more than necessary to check that the.... food to look and taste good

John, could that be part of your inability to get yourself plunked at the table to eat with your guests? That you don't have the appetite?

Annie, we usually travel to family at Thanksgiving but I do a separate traditional Thanksgiving meal here for my immediate family and our neighbors who are very good friends. I ask for each person's favorite dish to make, and my oldest, for years, has asked for the standard green bean casserole with Campbell's CoM soup. He had had it a long time ago somewhere (don't recall), and I initially tried to make it more "upscale" with fresh green beans, homemade sauce, etc., but he didn't like it. He wanted the recipe from the can. So that's what he got--canned soup, canned green beans, and those french fried onions on top. And he LOVES it. I make it maybe 3 or 4 times a year--Thanksgiving, his birthday, and once in a while as a surprise for him. As you said, we like what we like.

Feathers, I tried to pass off a homemade green bean casserole once too. It was tasted and left on the plates and no one wanted to take home the leftovers. Now I take a deep breath, mutter to myself, and open that dreaded red and white can. (sigh)

John, for some reason if I spend hours cooking a meal, I end up not really wanting any of it, maybe I'm just tired of it by then? Coffee, though, that's something else entirely!

Annie

I get being tired of it. For me, I usually forget to eat while preparing a feast, and if I don't eat the dinner, I'll pass out before the company are gone. :)

My theory is that cooking food can sometimes satisfy us as much as, even more than, eating food. Especially cooking that is engrossing, enjoyable and creative (not heating a can of CoM). Being "hungry" is as much a mind thing as a metabolism one.

Interesting topic, John. I've enjoyed reading others thoughts and experiences, preferences and dislikes. The video makes a good point.

I agree, fast food like KFC is like a bad drug habit, every once in a blue moon (or less) we give it a try, then decide it just wasn't what we thought it'd be.

Coffee? Oh my. DH roast and grinds ours, as Annie's family and others here do, and I didn't realize how spoiled my taste bud's had gotten! Picked up a can of coffee at the store last week as we are in the midst of a remodel and rather busy. 3 days later DH was roasting beans again! Yet, if we are dining out, we occasionally order coffee, without complaint.

I enjoy cooking, but if I couldn't also eat it, I'd probably never cook : ) We rarely dine out as we eat healthier, better, and better tasting (to us) when I cook. And save money to boot!

I don't have friends who cook really. And I certainly will eat a meal I don't much enjoy to spend time with friends, and not complain.

John, I will smilingly disagree that being hungry is a mind thing (hunger is something else altogether). 5 months of fast food, no kitchen, and I eventually stopped eating lunch. Then breakfast. After 4 days this week of not eating anything until a late dinner, and then that was fast food, I broke down today, incredibly hungry, to eat a frozen breakfast sandwich. My palate has suffered, so it tasted good this morning!

I got a bit lost and confused in the message or his intentions at first. Then discovered he is selling a book about coffee. That level of coffee cupping doesn't really interest me. Nor do I want to pay for something crappy to ground me. : ). An unavoidable stop at Starbucks does that just fine. (and yuck).

Roasting our own beans, commercial grinder, Chemex, is a simple morning ritual.

Cooking for others is just plain fun. Good ingredients, good company. Does not need to be fussy or fancy. Meeting friends out?...always something most of the time. Especially in NYC.

Weekdays we like to think of food as fuel. A good 9am snack avoids the famished noon desire for a junk lunch. Soup and salad dinner at home is easy. Or eggs, or charcuterie. Fuel.

Big heart for ShakeShack and American cheese singles, lol. (but have never bought the singles). ShakeShack once-twice a year.

^and still not sure if what i posted even relates. Never have had KFC or many of the fast foods out there. But I'm sure it is addicting being so present and easily available for those needing food fast.

There was something on TV about the science of creating fast food so that it makes people want more. Apparently MSG is an important part, not just for flavor but for that addiction thing. :)

Back to the video's promotion of the imperfect (and American cheese, though the good kind, not the singles): Breakfast sandwich today was about speed and clearing the fridge. Chicken andouille sausage and American cheese on corn rye (with caraway seeds) with mustard, lightly steamed. Very tasty and satisfying but hardly Michelin three star perfection.

Good point here. The first time I ate a good pho out, I was in 7th heaven. The last time I had the same dish at the same restaurant - it was still great, but I didn't retain the same sense of excitement as the first time.

I've been wondering about my sous vide recipes. I've made a couple of standouts (to me, anyway), and I have always cooked up more than I can eat in a sitting. The second meals (seared just before I'd eat them) were great, but not as great as the first ones. I've been wondering if a second day with a later sear just isn't as excellent as when first pulled out of the sous vide, or, now, watching this, if it is a minor "jadedness" aspect dropping in.

Dunno. I'll have to experiment. I haven't gotten around to repeating either sous vide recipes yet. One was just a few weeks ago, and I don't have more of that cut here.

At any rate, the Vietnamese beef and tendon pho I love - is something I still love, and not something I'll deprive myself of, despite my awesome first serving of it. It remains wonderful. Just no longer the initial surprise of taste.

As for coffee, I'm no connoisseur. It's either good (I can drink it dark) or it's burnt, bitter and bad (I add milk, very rare now).

There are two different effects. The one John brought up is that becoming an expert and making the best yourself can spoil you for the also rans. Like if the coffee is too bitter or too "oily" or too watery or flat or lacking in nuance, etc.

Artemis, what you're talking about, especially with the pho, but likely also with your sous vide, is the novelty factor. When you're a widely experienced adult, you've cataloged all kinds of interesting flavors, textures, temperatures, combinations, and overall cookery in your memory. Even if you're not good at it, nor at cooking, you know what you've eaten. If you taste something totally new and different, something that isn't like five different things you know, it lights up the pleasure centers mightily. A lot of the "so good"-ness is from the delight of the new. Think about how something new or a surprise can delight a toddler. You don't lose that sense of delight when you grow up. You just don't meet that many things that are completely, delightfully new.

Even when it's a known--seared meat is a known--if it's in a new context or if the memories of it or something like it are older and somewhat faded--the "oh, yeah, that's good" can jump up even if it's not a total surprise.

For me, Julia Child's quiche aux champignons is always toe curlingly wonderful, but if I get another piece, some of the curl is lost. Years can go by, however (that's a lot of cream!), and then it's like the first time all over again because the memory does dull. I've made other things that were reproducible and seemed really amazing the first time, but only nice thereafter, because more of the wow it's good was from the newness than the actual flavor.

So this is a sales pitch of sorts. Before I read sleevendog's post I wondered why on earth should anyone make such a song and dance, and use a dramatic title like "the dark place", when all it comes down to is the self evident statement that when you develop a discerning palate you dislike inferior food and drink. I don't quite get the part about deliberate exposure to bad food. What for Pete's sake is he on about?

The vlogger (James Hoffman) is well known in the coffee world. He did write a book on coffee beans. I'd guess most of his income is from his coffee roasting company, Youtube, and consulting to coffee companies. There is a certain risk of obsession related to coffee but I don't personally know anything about that (he said as he placed his fourth espresso of the morning on the gram scale to measure brew ratio). Probably not more than wine, beer, whisky, etc.

I was more interested in John's reaction to it, but I get it. I don't know if I can explain it. Basically, if you experience a spectrum of flavors with a single intention like coffee or wine, or even milk, and you start rating it for overall bestness and for particular flavor notes that make it seem better or worse to you, you'll figure out the One True Coffee (or wine or milk (I know someone who is a milk expert like a wine tasting expert)). If you then only drink the one true Coffee, or whatever, because it's the best, it becomes reestablished as your norm. It's no longer the height of wonderful. It's expected. It's the center of your scale. But nothing can top it, and all others pale next to it, because it's already the top by definition. So you've totally spoiled yourself for enjoying any other cup of coffee, and sad because you can't go out to coffee with your peeps because the coffee is so bad, and tea, orange juice or spring water just doesn't do it for you on a convivial level like a good cup of coffee does.

OTOH, if you can learn the ne plus ultra of coffee, and learn to produce it, but also keep yourself open to regular old good cups of coffee, you retain the ability to enjoy that good but not the very very best cup of coffee when you're out. Your scale hasn't shrunk to the point where you just can't stand being anywhere but home.

I have the same experience with food. I can't eat fish dinners (allergic) but that's the best of what's available at fine dining around here. They also buy the exact same chickens as I do, and it's always plain roasted chicken, which tends to be acceptable to people on all kinds of funky diets and to children. I'm not getting plain roast chicken at a fine dining establishment if I can help it. At it's best, it'll taste like I made it and can only go down from there. Ne Plus Ultra gain. I make a mighty fine roast chicken. They often don't because that's not their focus. They make good, not really really good. I end up not enjoying my meals at fine dining, as much as I would at a dive with a really good greasy hamburger. Even the best greasy hamburger is never going to rival an exquisite meal and keeps one's palate broad. Same as the sausage sandwich I mentioned up topic. Not a perfect sandwich, but very tasty and keeps me open to appreciating the best when it comes along.

The dim place maybe? There's an upscale place which is very convenient for many people, in kind of an odd location. We had dinner there last night. The location has housed everything from home cooking style to fine dining, but has lately been sort of at the intersection of fine dining and real daily food that people want to eat. I wasn't really unhappy with my meal, but for the price one could wish it were perfect. It was beautifully presented, excellent service, etc., but the spinach was almost too salty to eat and the slivered potatoes--nearly paper thin--in the scalloped potatoes were undercooked. The meat--a braise--was arguably a bit over, but it tasted very good. The soup special was really really good, however. I'm not usually a big cream soup fan, but I took a chance based on the look of enthusiasm on the server's face. It had just enough cream to thicken it a bit and give it body. It wasn't anywhere near white. And it was fantastic.

A mixed bag for sure. The potatoes and spinach were unpleasant. The meat imperfect but fine. The soup delightful.

I bet most people--since most people don't cook and don't know "how to taste"--would have though the whole thing was excellent.

Sigh.

I tend to eat out at ethnic places for a similar reason.

Food I don't know how to make, or for whatever reason don't make, is generally more interesting to me than food I can make for myself. Even if my home-cooked version isn't presented as well or maybe doesn't taste as good, I'd rather make it myself and get better at it.

Of course, I'm perfectly happy to eat at a diner or greasy spoon too. That's more of a "hungry, where's food" thing.