alcohol rub and spray the top of soil

I would pull the tree out of it's pot and do an entire soil change and while doing that see if you see root mealy. If they are crawling up your tree, there is nothing you can do until you get them in there. I would use very little coffee grinds so that they don't form a crusty layer or clog up important open spaces within your mix.

Are you certain that’s what you have ?

They are very difficult to irrdicate unless you use a systemic in the soil.

I would then spray down the entire tree with a good horticultural oil. not once, a couple of times in order to reall smother the bugs.Then clean the entire area with an soap and water and spray crevices with alchohol spray.

Mike

post a picture so that we can verify the ID

Why would a nutritional spray kill eggs and insects? Even the directions on the product does not mention any such use and neither do the contents suggest it is possible.

Tropicofcancer...one of the main ingredients in a proper citrus foliar spray is Sulfur. It is the 16th element on the periodic table and one of the most abundant elements in the Earth's crust, it was familiar to mankind even in ancient times. It has been used as an insecticide for over 4500 years. Sulfur is the main ingredient in over 300 registered insecticides. The product is designed for professional use as a foliar spray and is not enough concentration of sulfur to eradicate an Orange Grove of pests but for home use for a few potted citrus it is easy to drench a plant and get great results. If you have a large tree it would not be effective (at all) but if you have a small potted citrus you can easily drench the plant and get spectacular results. Indoors alcohol, soaps, and oils are very risky and will do more damage than good. Outdoors you can be a cowboy and shoot your plants with all sorts of product but once you bring them indoors you have to approach growing sweet oranges like 3D chess.

Lemon Lime: It is the 16th element on the periodic table and one of the most
abundant elements in the Earth's crust, it was familiar to mankind even
in ancient times. It has been used as an insecticide for over 4500
years. Sulfur is the main ingredient in over 300 registered
insecticides.

You got the above right. But if you look in 300 registered pesticides containing sulfur you will find that it contains elemental sulfur. Sulfur needs to be in its elemental form (or free form) for it to act as a pesticide. The nutritional spray you posted has sulfur in the form of sulfates and not in elemental form. They are bound to Potassium, Zinc, etc ions and its not free sulfur. So none of the ingredients are useful as pesticide. The manufacturers know this very well and do not even suggest it can be used as a pesticide.

Sulfur as pesticide is sold in fine powder (micronized) form or suspended in a liquid. It is primarily used as a fungicide. It has also been shown, in limited experiments, to be effective against spider mites.

Sulfur in compound form such as sulfates is useful as plant nutrition. Plants cannot absorb any needed elements in their elemental form except oxygen.

Indoors alcohol, soaps, and oils are very risky and will do more damage than good.

All chemicals used as pesticides can have potential harmful effects. After all they are designed to attack living things. Even sulfur (again elemental form) can be phytotoxic - eg under some conditions it can form sulfuric acid or in the presence of oils it can be harmful to the plants or it can enter the stomata and cause leaf damage. Like alcohol, soaps and oils it is a contact pesticide. Understanding and using pesticides correctly is thus important.

Taki Shen: As others have said try alcohol spray first. Rubbing alcohol diluted 50-50 with water and try to get to all the little nooks and crannies which the mealy bugs prefer. Apply it a few times every three days or so. Horticultural oil is also a good option. So is insecticidal soap sold in stores. You can also use natural soaps such as Castille liguid soap. Regular household soaps can be phytoxic to the plants since they are usually too strong for plants even when diluted. Avoid all detergents. Or something containing pyrethrins which is a natural plant extract and is quite an effective pesticide. The trick is to be thorough and consistent.

Just got off the phone with Southern AG. Talked to two people. Both really smart and really interested in what I had to say. They said the iron and sulfur in their citrus nutritional spray are acidic and poisonous to insects. They would absolutely love to relabel the product as an insecticide but it would cost them 1.5 to 2 million dollars to get label approval by the EPA. They said the insecticide and fungicide properties are a nice free benefit.

How are soaps, oils, and alcohol suppose to wash off indoors? They don't and will cause massive leaf drop over time.

Lemon Lime: Just got off the phone with Southern AG. Talked to two people. Both
really smart and really interested in what I had to say. They said the
iron and sulfur are acidic and poisonous to insects. They would
absolutely love to relabel the product as an insecticide but it would
cost them 1.5 to 2 million dollars to get label approval by the EPA.
They said the insecticide and fungicide properties are a nice free
benefit.

I would very much appreciate if you can stick to the topic before introducing a new one. You first asserted Sulfur is a pesticide and I pointed out that only free Sulfur is a pesticide. What did Southern AG had to say about?

Now you brought in acidity is the real deal. Iron and Sulfur are not acidic by any means. They are free elements. It is Ferrous Sulfate in solution that can be acidic. A portion of the Ferrous Sulfate becomes Ferric Sulfate in presence of water and free oxygen and that is acidic. If that happens then the iron in Ferric form cannot be absorbed by the plants because it is tightly bound to sulfate and it is difficult to break that bond. Plants can only absorb iron in ferrous form. So you see if it is going to be effective against insects then it is no good as a fertilizer.

It also a bit of Sulfuric acid which is a true acid but it is probably only their to prevent Ferrous Sulphate from changing to Ferric.

Anything that you spray on your plants including plain water will some effect on the insects and pests. Any acid will too. To be safe on leaves it has to be very dilute otherwise it will burn the leaves. Acid will dissolve cells and it will do it indiscriminately including plant tissue. Just because it is mildly acidic does not make it a proper insecticide. There is a reason why they cannot label it as insecticide - that is what regulations are for so as to not mislead consumers. Don't you think they will pay $1.5 million if there was money to be made? Who would not like a product that serves both purposes. It will sell like hotcakes.

How are soaps, oils, and alcohol suppose to wash off indoors? They don't and will cause massive leaf drop over time.

How do you normally wash off soap? Horticultural oils are designed to vaporize leaving no residue when done right. You have to use the right soap and oil to reduce any phytotoxic effects. Alcohol will vaporize leaving no residue. Both soap and oils have been used agriculturally for many years. Sweeping statements like they will cause massive leaf drop is not helpful. It is quite possible certain plants may react badly to a particular pesticide and usually the labels will state those. Alcohol is the safest and has the least side effects but is also not effective as say soap or oil.

Lemon Lime: OK. Good to know.

The caveat indoors with spraying citrus with oil and soap is you run the risk of clogging the stoma. When that happens the leaves will consume themselves under heat stress. In high concentrations like 1:1 it is very easy to burn the leaves with alcohol. The other issue is leaf temperature. Your suppose to apply when the temperature is below 90F. Indoors leaf temperature can reach 90F with grow lights or sun without you knowing it.

Sorry folks, it turned out to be a long response. Feel free to skip.

LL: Looks like you deleted your previous comment which left my answer dangling like you have done previously in other threads. I did get couple of private messages asking why I did not answer appropriately. I did not feel it was necessary to continue the conversation given the contents of your answer and simply bowed out of it. Apparently, Mike answered but I do not see his comments.

I like to be more detailed in my explanation so that any interested readers can understand how and why something works and what are their limitations. So here it goes.

Now to your latest comment: The caveat indoors with spraying citrus with oil and soap is you run the risk of clogging the stoma. When that happens the leaves will consume themselves under heat stress.

Let me start with this: When one has an infection they need to take anti-biotics and they take the risk of damaging their intestinal micro-biome.

I have stated before and will state again that there is always a risk of using pesticides if you do not do it correctly. The labels will give you all the info needed. As I stated anything that can attack living cells can also cause collateral damage to the plants. In fact, even inappropriate use of fertilizers can cause damage to the plants.

Commercial insecticidal soaps are derived from potassium salts of fatty acids. They are designed to be mild. Castille soap is one such household soap. Baby soaps are designed to be mild. Other household soaps are usually much stronger and derived from sodium salts. They can be damaging because they can dissolve the waxy layer off the leaves and thus exposing them to the elements. For young leaves that do not yet have this protective layer are more vulnerable. But soft bodied insects stand very little chance against even the mildest soap. The eggs though will mostly survive.

Commercial horticultural oil are similarly very different from other household edible oils. They are super refined low molecular weight paraffin/mineral oil. They also contain emulsifier/surfactant (like soap but they have different better ones) so that the oil goes on the surface as a very thin layer so that only a little amount of oil is needed to cover the surface. Unlike thicker oils, they are designed to vaporize quickly into air when applied correctly. They linger long enough to smother/suffocate the insects and short enough that they cannot do much harm to the plants. That is why the labels will state minimum temp (I think 50F), not too humid and the leaves are not already wet so that they can vaporize. They will also state to apply early in the morning or late in the evening when the stomata are mostly closed to prevent leaf damage. Same reason it is advised to not to apply when the temperature is too high.

Next you said: In high concentrations like 1:1 it is very easy to burn the leaves with alcohol.

Unless again the temperature is too high it is completely safe to apply 1:1 isopropyl alcohol even on young leaves. I doubt you will much support on that from any of the members here or outside who have effectively used without any problems as you seem to imply.

Alcohol works in two ways: As a pesticide it dehydrates soft bodied insects and as a disinfectant by dissolving protective lipid membranes of bacteria and virus. It has little effect on plant tissue when topically applied. At 1:1 dilution its disinfecting properties are also reduced. 70% alcohol is most suitable as disinfecting. 91% alcohol is most suitable for cleaning and not as effective as a disinfectant.

Alcohol has a nice side effect of cleaning wherever it is applied. Can be used to wipe off and kill hard bodied scales where oil and soap are ineffective. The only downside is that 32oz bottle costs $3 or so and makes only half gallon of spray.

Next: The other issue is leaf temperature. Your suppose to apply when the temperature is below 90F.

I already addressed that above. The labels state that clearly.

In fact no chemicals including fertilizers should be applied when
temperatures are too high. When temps are high chemicals are more
reactive and the plants internal chemical machinery is on high gear out
keeping it cool.

Next: Indoors leaf temperature can reach 90F with grow lights or sun without you knowing it.

That may be true for you but not for me. I keep my indoor plant areas much cooler. Why your observation is limited to indoors only?

"I am having mealybug infestation and it looks like I am losing a few trees, branches are brown, dead, no leaves growing. I started spraying with mix of Safe Insecticidal Soap/Neem Oil/Water. The mealybugs just will not die. Do you know if the mealy bugs are also in the top layer of the soil?"

He has already tried insecticidal soaps and neem oil and he has lost several plants, branches are brown and no leaves growing on some. What better example to prove ALL my points that spraying inside is risky.

Mealy bugs get their name from the mealy white wax. This is a waterproof barrier that protects them from dehydration and predators. "According to Dr. Paul Johnson of South Dakota State University's Insect Research Collection, mixing alcohol AND soap spray TOGETHER to control mealybugs isn't an exact science. Don't despair if your first attempt isn't quite right; with the household ingredients involved, tweaking their amounts to find what works is easy and inexpensive." The wax acts as a barrier repealing most insecticides. He says the alcohol together with the soap will dissolve the mealybug wax. Without their covering the insects die from fluid loss. "This only works while wet and it only works on contact". That is great advice for run of the mill plants but citrus are not going to take repeated applications inside without damage.

Because you have already had extensive damage that is why I suggested something non invasive that would actually be low risk and help the plant survive the mealy bug infestation. At this stage because you have already had a lot of damage I would personally try the foliar spray which contains sulfur and iron. If that doesn't work than you will have to be more aggressive. If the plants were still healthy they could handle more treatment but from your description they have already been through a lot.

Room temperature and leaf temperature are independent. Indoors 30-40 F spikes in leaf temperature are very common. Buy and infrared thermometer.

https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/137646/petroleum-sprays-citrus.pdf

1)Takes weeks to break down outdoors {o-u-t-d-o-o-r-s}.

2)Discoloration of leaves may persist for {m-o-n-t-h-s.}

3)The rate of penetration, migration, oxidization and evaporation of spray oils is generally rapid but slows with an increase in their molecular weights and decreasing air temperatures. {I-n-d-o-o-r-s}

4)The oils inhibit photosynthesis, respiration and transpiration. (Have stated this on Houzz many times, y-e-s y-e-s and y-e-s)

5) Damage to plants can occur if the oil sprays are not applied correctly or under the right conditions. (Indoors in a window or grow light is not the right condition) as Dr. Paul Johnson of South Dakota State University's Insect Research Collection states it is not an exact science.

6)Damage can include l-e-a-f b-u-r-n-I-n-g and oil soaking (of leaves and fruit), and in severe cases l-e-a-f d-r-o-p and reduced yields. (Read Again ,again, again)

7) Oil soaking may be evident on fruit surfaces and on leaves (typically along the leaf midrib) for several weeks after application (this is common). The extent of soaking depends on the concentration of oil applied, spray volume, the frequency of application, the citrus variety” {basically it depends on the citrus cultivar, the ratio, the application timing, the concentration and how heavy you apply and how many times you repeat all of which is why citrus forums are filled good, bad and ugly results}

8) Soft scales and mealybugs can be more difficult to control than hard scales

9)Oil sprays can sometimes damage plants – this is referred to as phytotoxicity. (Meyer lemon fruit appear more sensitive than Eureka lemon), and the climatic conditions. {indoors you have very harsh climatic conditions)

10) buyer beware The loss of oil from the plant is more rapid in tropical and subtropical climates than in temperate regions.

11) Burning is more likely to occur in slow drying conditions, when trees are moisture stressed. Citrus are always moisture stressed indoors.

12) The concentration of unsaturated molecules must be 8% or less. The unsaturated molecules can oxidise in sunlight (particularly in summer) and produce acids which can burn plant tissue. Grow lights and a sunny window are ideal for burning.

13) The risk of phytotoxicity is higher if oil sprays are applied • at temperatures above 35°C (leaf temperature under grow light or window), especially in hot dry winds, • to trees in poor health, • if soil moisture is low and trees are waterstressed (indoor citrus are usually water stressed because of low humidity high VPD• if trees are water-logged, • to trees sprayed within one month after a sulfur spray, • excessively (typical hobby grower), or • during prolonged cold weather (like overwinter!).

Growing citrus indoors is not easy

Brian. How Come you are not growing outside at all ?

Mike

Brian thank you and I hope it keeps working out. They look pretty healthy for trees that don’t go outside

also I removed my comment. If I could of messaged you I would of talked to you I that fashion. Set yourself up to messaging. )

Tropico good info to know. Much appreciate for all that time and carefully planned out post. )

Hi

Thanks everyone for your help. I started with 1:1 alcohol spray. I should have done the spot rub but just too many of them. I switch to the soap and neem oil.

When I moved plants from outdoors to inside, I had to repot to smaller size.

I did not see any infestation on the roots.

Since I cannot spray down with water, should I remove each tree and spray down in the bath tub?

What about the soil? The soap/neem running down the tree after weeks of spray, builds up concentrate?

I only have one grow light panel. Again, this is was last minute effort to save the trees

since I had to bring them in or toss them.

For dead branches, I just keep cutting down to main trunk? If I see no green, it’s dead?

What about the dead mealy bugs burrowed into the branches? leave as is?

I read mealy bugs inject some toxin into the branches.

I am still seeing few mealy bugs pop up here and there. I will spot rub with alcohol.

I just ordered some of the souther ag citrus nutriet you recommended. How

much should I dilute with water and how often to spray?

One last question. When I had my tree outside, of course they did well.

My meyer lemon however would have tons of flowers but very little leaves,

what is the fix for this?

Thank you! :-)

How about if I cut back all branches to just the trunk and dunk them in the soap/neem then rinse with water. If I can save the trees without branches, that is good enough for me.

I can bring them outdoors in a few months for branches to grow back.

Still, these mealy bugs might be in the soil and root system?

Can I also dunk the roots in soap/neem?

New soil at this time is not really an option.

TS: Whatever you do, avoid the idea of dunking the soil in soap, neem, alcohol etc. Root hairs have no defenses against these things. A little bit dripping into soil when spraying plants is not a problem but you can prevent that if you want using plastic sheets. There may not be any infestation in the soil. If you can take the plant out of pot and inspect the soil. If there are any problems you will most likely spot it.

Mealies like to be hidden in gaps, leaf axils. Spritzing diluted alcohol right at those nooks and crannies will take of them. You can also use a q-tip dipped in raw alcohol and hit those spots only.

Scales are harder to deal with it. You got quite a bit. I would not suggest to remove all branches. If the plant is healthy and has suitable environment then it will start budding again and the pest will be back and this time they will be after the tender leaves. Just removing the dead or sickly ones will be fine.

Your only good option is to wipe off those hard scales as much as you can with cotton or tissue moistened with alcohol. Check underside of leaves too. After that you can spray with alcohol, insecticidal soap or neem.

Neem is a heavier and very viscous oil. Unlike horticultural oil it tends to linger considerably longer. It is also harder to wash it off. Lots of citrus growers here use it and with success. I do not. Like all oils it is not effective against hard scales. Even soap will not work. Both will work on soft scales.

Neem, unlike other oils, has a natural insecticide (azadirachtin) which disrupts the life-cycle of insects. Normally, eggs are unaffected by other treatments but neem can disrupt the eggs to develop. Neem also is said to have good fungicidal properties.

Here is a good process for how to prepare neem spray:

Mix 1 tsp of cold pressed neem oil (Dyna Gro is one), 1/2tsp soap in 1 pint of warm/hot water and shake very vigorously so that neems mixes very oil. Then add 1 pint of alcohol and mix well. This is quite a good mix - spreads well and more uniformly. You can use water instead of alcohol if you want just pure neem concoction.

You do not need to wash your plants after applying these sprays. Although, if you are applying neem frequently there is a possibility of oil buildup and it will be a good idea to wash it off once in a while.

Also remember to apply oil based product correctly. No direct sun, warm but not hot, early morning or late evening, and good air circulation so it dries off. And no sulfur based fungicide has been applied to leaves in last month or so.

A picture is worth a thousand words. My advice was based on this being in much better shape. My concern was that you don’t have more leaf drop. But from the pictures I don’t see any leaves left? The plant has had mealy bug attack, lost all the leaves, you have trimmed it and was brought indoors and was sprayed several times. That is a lot of stress. I am concerned about the roots at this point. Does the soil smells sweet or does it smell like egg? If the roots are rotting it would smell like sulfur or egg. If it were me at this point I would probably be buying new plants. If you want to save I think you would have to put it in a laundry sink and completely rinse off the roots and plant in new soil. Rinse branches. Use alcoholic and soap mixture. I would never shop at that greenhouse again or use the same soil.

I agree that picture of the whole plant may provide a better clue as to the current condition of the plant as a whole. Whether you want to discard or not is really up to you.

If It were my plant I would either throw it away and start new, or clean al of teh old sil off and the plant from top to bottom. I would leave it seprate from all my others if you decide to keep it until you can handle it outside for a while.

Mealy do reside in the soil and root systems and will eventually crawl back up.

Lemon Lime: Two of your comments upstream from 2 days back just showed up now. One on mealy bugs and the other on use of oil. The usual Houzz problems strikes again. The only thing I can agree with is that if the plant is in poor health then spraying with pesticides can be detrimental. The plant should be in a healthy condition/environment and if not that should be fixed with equal priority as dealing with pests.

Any decent article should discuss both the upside/usefulness and the downside/problems. You are selectively picking out the downside to support your doomsday predictions of how many ways things can fail. I like to pay equal attention to how many ways one can succeed.

There are many successful growers of citrus on this forum. They all use some form of all the pesticides mentioned in this thread. They also know how to keep their plants healthy and productive. I also do grow bunch of citrus besides a lot of other plants indoors half the year. My plants are healthy and they flower and fruit regularly. Yes I also do have some bugs but way below any panic level. So far, this season, I did not have to use Horticultural oil and have only used alcohol and soap/pyrethrin mixtures a few times. I am sure when March rolls in I will have to deal with more pests as many of the plants will start growing again and it will be warmer too.

We chose to do the yearly shuttling of plants from outside to inside and then back outside. One downside to this is we bring in pests every time. So in a way we could claim we have more experience than you do since we have to deal with both the conditions. But that would be pointless. Just as pointless as you claiming that somehow you know citrus better than others because you grow it indoors all year round.

I am sure you are proud of your achievements growing citrus indoors and you should be. You should start a thread detailing your setup and teach others. At the same time consider the fact you may also learn a thing or two from others.

Brian, you might not have any bugs because you do a great job at growing them and they are too healthy to even consider attacking. And too, you nay not be picking any up because you keep them inside all the time. Too you may not be getting any from inested plants once bought. I have not seen you say you got rid of them or had a bad pest problem and got rid of them with this method. Just a thought)

Tropico touched on a lot of things I was thinking. Many of us use the methods Tropico speaks of and in fact I have to before I bring mines in. If I don't hit them with Fish Emulsion weeks before bringing mine in, they will get pests. In fact, I constantly wipe down my Phals with half strentgh Alchohol and half water, then I add Dawn dish soap, the 'blue ' one which does not harm any of my orchids. In fact it shines them up and prevents dust and spider mites.

Horticultural Oils have never harmed a tree of mine or a plant, as long as it's applies as directed.)

Mike

Mike have tried all the popular methods including expensive Koppert Biological solutions neem oil, alcohol, soap, insecticide. The combination of sulfur and zinc in the foliar spray worked better than all the others methods. I fought spider mites for two years. After soaking twice with Southern AG it has really made a difference and fruit set has been great.

https://www.gardenista.com/posts/5-secrets-tips-grow-indoor-lemon-tree/

One of the biggest mistakes people make growing citrus indoors is grabbing a piece of advice online and thinking it will work perfectly for them. The second biggest mistake is giving advice thinking it will work perfectly for someone else without considering what variables they are growing under. Who are these people kidding? Your not kidding this guy, https://www.gardenista.com/posts/5-secrets-tips-grow-indoor-lemon-tree/

https://www.houzz.com/ideabooks/28162532/list/growing-citrus-indoors

www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/137646/petroleum-sprays-citrus.pdf

I get mites occasionally, insecticidal soap works for me and follow up misting. Just one of many solutions

Thanks for all the great info. As mentioned initially, it was never my intent to grow indoors. I did not have a choice. It was a last ditch effort to save the trees. I have tossed the trees

already since they are dead, no growth for weeks now.

I had these trees outdoors for almost 3 years and they were doing fine.

At least I learned something here and have a bottle of Southern AG for future use :-)

Can you provide a good soil mix ratio for citrus trees in pots? I use Fabric pots.

If possible, just local home depot products, nothing exotic.

I also was curious, how are these nurseries able to get their 5-15 gallon potted citrus trees to have fruit. When you buy one and take it home, some never seem to fruit again, lol

Lemon Lime made a gret point. Growing in a greenhouse is entirely on the up side for huge trees and lots of fruit. If you are looking for that in a home, one should provide LOTS of driect light and long days and warmth.

Nice trees Lemon and Lime. Very nice))