House heating. Heating the house, an alternative to gas and solid fue
Mikl Brendi
5 years ago
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Matt McLagan
5 years agoRelated Discussions
Gas fireplace insert vs. house heat
Comments (12)I clipped this post from a previous discussion on gas inserts to provide additional info on the subject. Posted by: renron on 12.19.2006 at 07:28 pm in Fireplaces Forum First, DON'T install a ventless fireplace!!! Even though the MFG.s will tell you the exhaust fumes are OK, do you really want to breathe them? Many people end up with Major Headaches and chronic breathing issues. Does it sound like a good idea to breathe burnt exhaust gasses? B type flue(vent) pipes are dual thickness pipes. A pipe inside another pipe, suitable for use at 1" or more to flammable materials. Outer casing pipe is sealed and will not conduct air. D (Direct Vent) type flue(vent) pipes are also dual layers but they are capable of exhausting burnt gas through the inner pipe and importing exterior(outside) combustion air for burning. Think of a straw inside a larger straw. Inside straw blowing, outside straw sucking outside air for combustion. A fan is usually used to help exhaust the burnt gasses. Details below: B-Vent (Natural Vent) gas fireplaces are designed primarily for decorative use. Generally they produce a larger and more realistic yellow flame. B-vent fireplaces are sometimes available without a glass window, so many homeowners are attracted to this design because of the open, realistic flame effect; some models do have a glass window so the existence of a window on a fireplace does not define its product classification. Natural vent gas fireplaces use room air for combustion and vent fumes through a vent or chimney that must terminate vertically above the roof line. The key to determining whether a B-vent fireplace will meet your heating needs is to check the manufacturer's listed efficiency rating (gas consumed x efficiency = heat output). While efficient, heater-rated B-vent fireplaces do exist, many lower quality "builder grade" fireplaces have no efficiency rating and, therefore, will not supply substantial heat. In fact, this category of fireplace will often use the greatest amount of gas at the lowest range of efficiencies. If you live in a warmer climate where you want the aesthetics of a fire without much heat, this may be the appliance for you. Likewise, bedrooms and smaller rooms may be a good candidate for a b-vent fireplace, but please check building codes to see if this class of fireplace is approved in your locality or for installation in the room where you'd like to use it. Local/national codes in some areas prohibit the use of b-vent rated appliances, especially in colder climates. Be aware that very "air tight" houses can cause performance problems with b-vent rated appliances, so please consult an experienced fireplace installer who can advise you on the proper installation and use you are considering. Direct Vent Fireplaces offer the most features with respect to gas consumption, efficiency ratings and venting options. A direct vent fireplace will always have a glass window because these fireplaces are sealed systems using a double walled venting system. Combustion air enters the appliance via one section of pipe while fumes and moisture are vented through the other pipe. Most often, a double wall "pipe within a pipe" system is used. Subject to each model's requirements for distance and offsets, direct vent fireplace venting may be terminated either horizontally or vertically. Efficiency rating will average 65% to 84%, similar to ratings on gas furnaces. Keep in mind that these appliances must "waste" some of the heat produced to create a draft of rising warm air to evacuate the fumes produced without aid of a forced air exhaust system. Think of direct vent fireplaces as a decorative furnace: the beauty of a realistic flame with high efficiency. This appliance is great for primary or supplental heating and for emergency backup heating as most work without aid of electricity. Because this is a sealed system that uses outside air for combustion, direct vent fireplaces are usually the favored choice among those in the fireplace industry because of their greater efficiency and exceptionally reliable performance. Hope this info helps, I am a General Contractor. Renron...See Moreheating for tiny house not always occupied.
Comments (10)Just an update. Sears has a small head pump furnace and with all the new wiring, construction, etc. I think it comes to $10,000. Forget it. Meanwhile, I tracked down the company that bought out the maker of my furnace blower. I could probably get a replacement and with some retrofit could probably have a new blower in the existing furnace if this one dies. Now I have to find if I can replace heat coils on an old furnace. does anyone have any ideas? Here is the plan: work on seeing if the furnace can have new parts (since it is electric what else but a blower and heat coils?). Then run a 220 wire upstairs (which is possible with my wiring schema) to heat the pipes with electric strip (whatever that is). I am not here most of the winter and am 2 hours away if there is a problem. All the pipes come up directly from a small boiler room downstars (5 by 15 feet) which is 3/4 in the ground. So Heat those pipes, the pipe from the well to boiler, and the pipes directly above the boiler in the kitchen and bathroom which are next to each other above the boiler room. Then begin the process of putting in any of the following: baseboard heaters where they are able to be placed (one downstairs is all that is necessary there); wall fans that are embedded in the wall, and maybe some radiant heat. Since I sit at a computer all day, all I need to heat other than the pipes upstairs is myself. It means lots of thermostats for each of these and I am told they are not as fine tuned as for a furnace. The furnace will be used minimally and I can turn it on remotely. Do people have any opinions on this plan?...See MoreNew Gas Furnace with Heat Pump setup, Em heat?
Comments (20)Thanks, Mike & Tigerdunes: I've been a builder for over 30 years so I tend to pay very close attention to the little things happening in my home as I'm the guy who probably installed it and has to fix it if it breaks. I had a Honeywell Wifi thermostat that was terribly unreliable in terms of its Wifi connectivity and lack of today's available features. I did not want one of the new Internet based DIY thermostats like Ecobee or Nest because they get their temp from the Internet, a temp that is always several degrees differant from my home. I wanted a hardwired outdoor sensor. So, I installed one and a Venstar T7850 Wifi thermostat that appears to be rock solid, versatile, easy to program and the connectivity is flawless. My brother is a commercial builder and uses them exclusively in his buildings with great success. It provided all sorts of usage data on a minute by minute basis if desired. It even has an installation test mode that checks your wiring and turns different components on and off to confirm your setup, which I think is brilliant. That said, I feel good about my wiring and setup. I can run 'Emergency Heat' with my inverter/generator during a power-loss, and everything else seems to work fine. My changeover point is set to 33 degrees which is determined by the hardwired 10 ohm outdoor sensor as it should be. My only concern is the one I mentioned in my initial post: I call for 5 degrees of heat, the heat pump comes on for a couple of minutes, then the furnace lights up due to the 5 degree call, and my heat pump does not shut down (or it doesn't seem to). It might be that it would shut down in a matter of minutes or might just be winding down in some cool-off mode. As I said, I am afraid to let it run just to see what happens because something bad might happen... like creating an over pressure situation and blowing a refrigerant line. I wish I could find out if this is not out of the ordinary for a heat pump but thus far nobody can tell me definitively as there are different variables, which is understandable. It's just hard to get anyone out here during this virus and the drive-time alone adds 100's of dollars before anything is even gets looked at. Sorry this got so long winded....See Morehome heating with a gas range
Comments (27)You best be careful firing up a gas oven to heat a home. I started with some calculations, but I lack some data to complete the problem ending up with a hard number. Assumptions need to be made in order to end up with something that is a starting point for discussion. A big residential gas oven, "properly functioning" can make say 20,000 btu/h. A "properly operated" oven will burn a lot less than that because nobody bakes a cake or roasts a turkey with the door open, but let's look at some numbers. To make 1000 btu takes 11 cu ft of natural gas (sea level pressure, I guess) and 9.4 cu ft of air (not oxygen, but the oxygen that 9.4 cu ft of air contains). That means that running your oven flat out for an hour uses about 20 x 9.4 = 188 cu ft of air/h. Assume that your kitchen is 10 x 20 x 8 = 1600 cu ft. That means that running your oven flat out will use about 1/9 of the air or oxygen in your theoretical kitchen. OK, there is air exchange. One study looked at a bunch of homes in several urban areas and came up with an average of 0.71 air exchanges/hour over the entire house. Bingo: Average air exchange more than makes up air for average combustion . Maybe you even get increased air exchange with a stack effect, bonus. Not so fast. What if you fall a little short . Maybe someone turns on the burners as well. What if the room is much better sealed than most. As the oxygen levels decrease, the combustion becomes increasingly biased towards CO rather than CO2. I see in a 2005 paper the following data. At 21, 19 and 17% oxygen, methane produced 1400, 11,800 and 12,500 ppm CO respectively. Now the other burning conditions, temperature, moisture, burner design, fuel flow rate,... will also have an effect. Note that 1000 ppm CO puts you in a coma. The flow rate used in the paper was 2l/min. That is 4.3 cu ft/hr which makes about 390 btu/hr. We can conclude that to make 20,000 btu/h would make 72,000, 605000, and 641,000 ppm, respectively, but in what volume? That gets a little dicy, but lets just use the 11:9.4 ratio from above. If 20,000 btu/h = 51 cu ft/h then with oxygen the gas product is 51 x (11+9.4) = 1040 cu ft. If all of this is without error, you have the potential for filling your kitchen with the above concentrations of CO in a couple of hours assuming no air exchange. That is at least 72 times what puts you in a coma. Care in this kind of operation is highly recommended if approached at all. Maybe there is something off in my calculations. I am no boiler engineer. If anyone sees something wrong, I'll not be upset. You may have noticed that there is an apparent disagreement between the volume in the first and the penultimate paragraphs. (If you add the air volume to the gas volume, you get 408 cu ft.) It is only off by a factor of 2.6 and easily chalked up to things like temperature differences in calculations and experiments coming up with the figures. A temperature difference of 80C (room temperature vs boiling) accounts for half of that. There are various assumptions that can be moved around so have at it....See MoreDLM2000-GW
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