Here goes nothing....remodeling/addition plan ready for critique
I've been a longtime lurker of GW and Houzz and have quite a bit of BTDT experience in the last 20+ years of building and remodeling. Our family (DH, me, 4 kids still at home) just left our suburban home and headed to the "sticks" to live on our 950 acre cattle farm that DH operates. We purchased a small ranch home previously owned by a family member that sits on the farm. Due to space limitations, the age/condition of the home, our family's needs for homeschooling, etc., we are planning to add onto the existing house and gut remodel the rest. It'll be a massive project that will require us to move temporarily into a mobile home also located on the farm.
I know this plans breaks some design "rules" but in thinking long and hard about our family's lifestyle and needs, I think this plan suits those. However, I'm not ruling out some tweaks that others may see that I'm blind to.
Before this thread gets rolling, though, here's a few ground rules, non-negotiables, and details about the plan and our family:
1) Before someone says, "get an architect", I hear you, BUT those are located HOURS away from our home and I don't really think one is necessary for this. I have a designer/draftsperson (gasp!) lined up to CAD this for me. However, I'm a pretty particular and controlling person and turning over total creative control goes against my nature, for better or for worse. If we were building from scratch in a different location on the farm, then it would be a different story.
2) Yes, this will cost a lot to do and we might be better tearing down but I think there's enough value still left for what we paid to make this work. Plus, there are some tenuous family dynamics (extended family) that would make tearing down and rebuilding not in our long-term best interest.
3) The current house is a 1970's rectangular ranch whose footprint lies within the red/dashed area shown on the plan. It has a basement underneath and we plan to extend the basement area to include the 32' x 35' addition to the left rear of the home. This will give us a 2 car garage and mud area in the basement.
4) Location of basement stairs cannot be moved.
5) We have 2 boys and 2 girls. The boys will use the hall bathroom and we are adding on a girls' ensuite bath and walk-in closet. Eventually, I predict that our youngest son will end up in the bedroom with the ensuite long-term once the other three are grown and gone. We are opting to not have another half bath on the main level because there is a full bathroom located in the basement. My hope is to try to direct the boys to that bathroom for showers, etc. so that the hall bath can stay relatively clean.
6) The house faces mainly west. The beautiful views of the farm are located to the rear (east) and end (south). We are foregoing a garage on the main level and opting for a carport because we need to maintain views to the south where our barn is located and where we keep our weaned calves.
7) The basement garage will enter from the left end (north) side of house because of topography; therefore, the addition is 32' long on that end to accommodate 2 larger vehicles (SUV and 3500 series truck) plus mud area/stairs.
8) We homeschool three of our children so I incorporated a homeschool office/storage area into the laundry area. My thinking was that by making the space one large space versus two separate rooms, I can keep a better eye on laundry and also, the space will convert more easily to a crafting/sewing space for me once the kids are grown.
9) We are a very informal family with informal relatives and friends. We want a comfortable space with lots of storage. We don't dine formally so family meals will be at the island most likely.
Looking forward to your suggestions!
Comments (27)
tiggerlgh
5 years agolast modified: 5 years ago
PROVirgil Carter Fine Art
5 years agoRelated Discussions
Please critique my garden plan
Comments (13)Gamebird, You've had lots of helpful comments today, and I am sure more are yet to come. My answer on beds being oriented north-south or east-west is going to make me sound wishy-washy, but I think either one could work equally well. Most of my neighbors that have veggie gardens run their beds from north to south, but a fellow gardener who lives a couple of miles from me runs his east-west. I have some beds, about 65% of them, that run north-south, and the remaining 35% run east-west. Our veggie garden is on a serious slope, so the contouring of the garden beds was a very deliberate decision to slow down the runoff of water and also to minimize erosion. The classic recommendation in most parts of the country is that you should run your beds from north to south. I think the intent is that your rows get a more equal distribution of light that way. What is more important than the orientation of the beds, though, is the selection of where to plant your veggies. The general rule is to put taller crops in the northernmost rows of the garden so they won't shade your other crops. Here in Oklahoma, where the summers are very long and insanely hot, I deliberately use okra, corn, amaranth and other tall plantings (like pole beans and other trellised crops) to shade crops that benefit from a little shade, like sweet and hot peppers. I like your idea of improving the soil first, then building the beds, and lining the pathways....I was gently trying to lead you in that direction, without sounding like your bossy sister! LOL Torrential rainfall IS a huge problem here when it occurs. Just today we had 3" of rain in less than 4 hours, and you should see the erosion that has gone on today as the water rushes downhill to the creeks that will carry it to the Red River. (It is not at all one of our heaviest rainfalls....two years ago we had 9.25" in one day, and almost 8" of that fell in 4 hours.) So, check out how the water drains before you start doing too much, and the info will be very helpful in your planning. Even though you may not be putting in that water feature for a couple of years, plan it out now so you can take advantage of a naturally low-lying area or can plan to site your water feature so it helps absorb excess rainfall and runoff. We have several water features, some manmade and some natural, and they attract wildlife. Since you have a young child, though, it probably is wise to wait until she's a little older. One thing to remember as you plan your landscape is that the soil on even a small plot of land (and yours is not small by any means) can vary greatly. Even though we have mostly clay, we do have one band of very deep, sandy soil (which I love, love, love), so check your soil in various places to be sure you know what you have. When you do a soil test, the advice is the same. You dig up soil from several locations and mix it together prior to the soil test, so the results will give you an overall average for the whole area. Regarding Randy's comment about shrubs, I'll just say that his comments are right on. Most people plant shrubs too close to their homes and the shrubs eventually get too large, become a problem and have to be removed. You can avoid this through a very careful selection of dwarf shrubs AND by being sure to plant them further away from the house....say 4' to 5' at the closest, not 1' to 2' or 3'. Be sure you understand the shrub's MATURE height and plan accordingly. As Randy stated, I am a big advocate of firescaping....which is landscaping in a way that will help prevent your home from burning during a wildfire. Keeping plants that burn easily further away from the house is an important part of firescaping. We have always had wildfires in this part of the country, and we always will. Some years they are dreadfully bad, and other years they are not. It is wise to design your landscape in a way that will help preserve your home if the worst possible thing....a raging wildfire....occurs. I never worried about wildfire that much until the 2005-2006 wildfire season, which I think was the worst one in recent Oklahoma history. During that year, our very young and very small volunteer fire dept. had over 240 calls (most years prior to that we had 40 to 50 calls per year), many of which were large, raging wildfires. It changed the way I do a lot of things, and I am now very careful about planting anything close to the house if that plant could help a fire climb up onto the house. It's just one more thing to think about, but an important one. Finally, I know you are eager to do your landscaping, but go slow and make sure you understand just how hard it is for plants to get through our long, hot summers. When we say that, it is because we know from experience that summer's heat here can be VERY cruel and very hard on plants. In your part of the state, you also have to plan for the recurring sleet and ice storms that can cruelly destroy gorgeous trees in a matter of hours. (So, stay away from weeping trees, weak-wooded trees and delicate trees that can't hold a huge load of ice.) Understand, too, that Oklahoma's climate is one of wild swings and unpredictable changes. It can, literally, be 60 or 70 or 80 degrees, sunny and clear in the morning and then an Artic cold front can come out of Canada in a matter of hours, dropping the temperatures 30 degrees or more, and bringing cold rain, freezing rain, sleet, snow or a mix of them. In the summer, rain can be scarce and temperatures brutal. Plants have to be TOUGH to survive here, so decide in advance how much (or how little) pampering you're prepared to give your plants, and plan accordingly. It is so much fun reading your plans and imagining how it all will work out. I hope you'll keep us all posted on your progress. Dawn...See Morestarting over (ugh) please critique new plan
Comments (32)(I think that some may not realize your exterior is mirrored to your floorplan, at least I think so--it isn't a direct match either way though, as I look at it more closely). LL's interior changes are better. So are yours--with the change of stair. I'm just not sure if that stair actually will work in the space (someone like Renovator will need to count them and tell you). But, you still have 3 ways to get from back hall to other places in the house: back hall, pantry, kitchen, out back hall, past fridge, past island stools, past dining chairs and out back hall, closet, utility, foyer, out. It is very circuitous. And, the most cramped option is probably the intended option (past fridge, past stools, past dining table). Just my observation....See MorePlease Critique My House Plan
Comments (5)Is there a particular reason to have a full bath on the hall instead of a powder room? If you do not need that tub/shower, you could use the space to make a small vesibule where the master tub is now with access to the bath and closet from there. Our current house is set up in a similar fashion with a 3 x 3 area off the master with one wall being entrance to our closet, one wall with linen closet (deep enough for hampers) and one wall with door to bath. I am always going between the closet and bath, so I don't think it would be a pain to walk through the bath to get to closet (I am designing our new house this way). But the vestibule idea may solve it altogether. Also, if your master closet and storage laundry area back up to one another, I would make sure there was a way to pass laundry through from one room to another - hampers that roll under the counter and into the closet, laundry drop doors so you could do a very short laundry chute of sorts, etc. If it is just you guys 99% of the laundry will originate in your closet. So you would want a way to pass dirty laundry through and pass clean laundry back easily. Perhaps there is some way to do a "walk-through" linen closet of the vestibule that would go to the laundry room. Then sheets and towels would be easily managed, too. I agree with kirkhall on the entry. You will end up with a ton of room under that stair for the closet and can combine uses with the coat closet as drawn. When you are designing bannisters for your stairs, you may want to make sure you use some design that will accomodate a spring loaded baby-gate so you don't have to install something more permanent. You didn't mention grandkids, but with four kids, they are certain to come. :) Best of luck!...See MoreCarol's new kitchen plan - please critique
Comments (15)I have been wondering about the prep sink. What would it be like to have a trough sink running parallel to the prep zone but ending near the cook top? I don't know what it would be like to lean in to rinse things. I angled the island to get more work space as well as a larger floor area. Standing at the prep counter, I will be out of the path of anyone coming through to use the sink or go outdoors. In our current kitchen we are always bumping into each other. I can't quite imagine what the island will look like but I think it will be quite efficient. I had planned on storing baking staples (Flour, sugar, etc.), bowls, spoons, etc. in drawers and cupboards of 30" space. It is also very convenient to the pantry for additional staples. The cuisinart could live on the counter here and be easy to access. Rolling out pastry might require a move to the larger work surface which at least, would not be cluttered with bowls, machines, etc. Or, as you suggest, I could put ovens here and have a larger surface near the sink. I have gone back and forth between the two ideas. The shelf over the stove is meant to be an extension of the end china unit - 42" high to hide the cooking pots and reduce splashes, etc. I wasn't sure how to draw it but I can picture it in my mind! Thanks for your input....See Moreshead
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agokmg11
5 years agoshead
5 years agolast modified: 5 years ago@Virgil, I was hoping you'd chime in :) I'll answer in bold what my thought process was/is:
--The spatial definition and flow at the entry, dining, living room is confused and ill-defined as one's first impression of entering the home;
I do somewhat agree with this. However, we have very few guests that ever visit us (one of the perks of living out in the boonies according to DH) and those that do will always use the side door. They do now and even our UPS/FedEx drivers leave our packages at the side door.
--The kitchen appears to have wasted wall space on the wall of the laundry/school room;
I initially had that wall straight across but along that wall is a major pathway to the living area and since we will have bar stool seating, I wanted enough clearance.
--The laundry/school room looks small to have three children plus a mother/teacher all working together at the same time;
I should probably clarify that the homeschool space in the laundry is mainly for storing our supplies and for computer work. Our style of homeschooling has us all over the house depending on subject and time of day. That means we sit at the bar in the mornings or on the sofa. There would never be four of us in that space at the same time.
--There's a lot of circulation areas--areas just devoted to going somewhere--throughout the house;
I agree but I'm not sure how to overcome that. The front left end of the house is existing space, including the hallway, which I HATE, but I don't see a good way to eliminate it. We're hoping to keep the three existing bedrooms and hall bathroom pretty much intact and only change out the finishes.
--Access is torturous to get to the girl's bath areas and to the master bath areas (yes, the master bath looks over sized).
I don't know that torturous is the word I'd describe for the girls' bath. It's attached to their room and since they'll be the ones using it, not me, I feel like it's in the only location it can be in. The doorway into their bathroom will be where an existing window is now.
As for the master bedroom and bathroom, since the new basement underneath must be a certain size (width and depth) because of space needed for two vehicles plus the hallway to that "wing" of the house has to be in that location because of the stairs, I'm not sure how to better configure it. Lord knows I've tried. I'm open to suggestions, though.
And, yes, the exterior facades of the house...what will they look like? What will the massing be, what is the architectural character; how will the fenestration be laid out to create a coherent and harmonious exterior?
Here is my non-professional rendering of what the front of the house will look like. Presently, the roof calculates to be a 4/12 on the main body of the house. Because we will have to alter the ceiling joists to shift loads and will be removing the existing metal roof anyway, it won't cost that much more to raise the roof in the middle of the house.
chicagoans
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoshead
5 years agolast modified: 5 years ago@kmg11,
Some quick thoughts..brave girl for posting ;)...
It's taken me a while to get up the nerve...lol. Now I'm ducking for cover :)
Will family generally arrive in the basement garage, then walk up the stairs? Is this how groceries, etc. will be brought in? If so, how do you envision this working as you age?
Under normal conditions, I will be parking under the carport when bringing in groceries. As we age, DH says that we just can pull in the yard to the front door and come in that way. That's his objection to installing a dumbwaiter, anyway ;) My goal would be to have everyone come in the basement door into a "mud area" to take off their dirty boots, coats, etc., especially during the winter when it's nothing but a sloppy mud & manure hellhole around here...lol.
I don't think I would like the combination of homeschool/laundry. Washer and dryers are loud, making it difficult to converse, think or study. My opinion is the homeschool room deserves its' own dedicated space. You and the kids will spend lots of time here, it needs to be spacious and free of other distractions.
That is a concern of mine as well. As I replied to Virgil above, though, the kids probably won't do much of their studying in that space. I'm mainly envisioning it as an area to store our books, supplies, and computer paraphernalia as well as be my home office.
The kitchen is very large, along with the island. I would want the dining room a bit closer to encourage sit down meals as a family, instead of eating at the island.
Yes, I agree that the kitchen is large, which is what we prefer. In our last house, the kitchen was 18'x21' with a 4.5' x 10' island. Sit down meals were held at our island as we utilized the end of it as a high table.
I'm also wondering about the sink in the pantry, I'm sure you have a reason. Would you need a sink in the homeschool room?
I plan to store the coffee maker, etc. inside the pantry so the purpose of the sink there is multi-fold. I will use that sink mainly for the coffee station but also as a place to unthaw the 100's of pounds of meat that will be in our freezers. I only occasionally need to soak anything so I can use it for that if needed and not have a sink area in the laundry. During the summer, I can also use the sink and counter space in there for our garden produce.
The idea of your boys using the basement shower might create more work and not function as you would want. As kids go, towels and clothes would accumulate, which means more up and down stairs to gather laundry.
That's a good point. We currently have our washer and dryer near the bathroom in the basement. DH thinks it may be a good idea to leave a set there for washing his dirtier laundry from the farm as well as a place for the boys to throw in their clothes. Our oldest is 15 and will most likely eventually move his bedroom to the basement once he hits college in three years (yikes!). That'll let the girls be able to finally have their own bedrooms each. They are twins and have always shared but at age 11, are itching to have their own "space" :)
What about making one larger bath area where the original one is- for all the kids? You could divide it several different ways, eliminating the girls, which seems a bit odd in placement.
The hall bath shown is existing so I'd like to leave as much in place as possible with that. Currently, the 4 kids are divided among those three bedrooms and all are using the hall bath while DH and I are in the basement with our own bath. Having 4 kids all waiting on one bathroom causes a lot of friction :/
Agree on your master bath and also bedroom being over-sized. Overall I think you could condense which would help with better flow.
I'd love suggestions on how to condense it. I'm not sure how that can be done if we stick with putting the basement garage underneath which has to be a certain size (see my reply to Virgil).
Happy New Year!
Thanks for the comments/observations. It will definitely cause me to rethink a few of the areas you mentioned as potentially being problematic. Happy New Year to you as well!
shead
5 years agolast modified: 5 years ago
PROAnglophilia
5 years agoshead
5 years agoBri Bosh
5 years ago
PROMark Bischak, Architect
5 years agoshead
5 years agolafdr
5 years agoshead
5 years ago@The Cook's Kitchen:
"The design works against the old house footprint, not with it.......and just integrating a couple of addition wings to that."
Could you elaborate a bit more on what you're seeing as working against the old house footprint? We are leaving the bedrooms and hall bathroom in their original configuration. The kitchen area is basically the same as the current area. For the "master wing," we are utilizing an existing window in the girls' bedroom to enter their new ensuite bath/closet area. In the kitchen area, we are also utilizing an existing window to enter the hallway to the master bedroom so we aren't really touching the back wall of the house at all except in just a few areas.
On the existing house, the southwest corner 18x16' section is currently a carport so the front and south wall are pretty non-existent. That means we'd only be tearing out about an 8' section of wall on the south end of the house, which we'd have to remove anyway if we added an entirely new wing. This pic might help better explain it:
And this pic might help explain how it would look if built as drawn with a new larger window and front door:
The lack of the ability to tear-down is not sentimental at all. Unfortunately, it's for familial reasons I really can't share on an internet forum. Thankfully, houses here are so much less expensive than where we just sold our last house so I don't necessarily have to "penny pinch" to get the house I want; however, that doesn't mean that I want to go overboard either. DH gets to live him dream on the farm and DW gets a nice house was the deal he and I made ;-) Thankfully, Amazon Prime has made the move easier to swallow for me.
shead
5 years agolast modified: 5 years ago- PRO
Virgil Carter Fine Art
5 years agolast modified: 5 years ago shead
5 years ago- PRO
Virgil Carter Fine Art
5 years ago shead
5 years agoshead
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoWe've gone over some of the suggestions made here and have spoken with the builder concerning the layout, costs, etc. and have decided to forego the carport for now in lieu of adding the basement garage. While definitely not my ideal, the garage in the basement will cost pennies compared to an upper level carport or garage, which we can add later as we age. We don't have harsh conditions that often so it's likely that I'll be parking in the existing driveway and entering through the living room door most days. There will be a mud area at the bottom of the basement steps for DH and the kids. In coming to terms with how we live versus how I'd like to live, it's certain that on sunny days when boots have little to no dirt, DH and kids will enter through the side door, which is why I'm putting a little area to drop shoes there. All that means is that there will be a half wall to kick boots off behind when coming in to eat lunch, etc.
Here is the new plan, which I'm sure still could use some modifications but both DH and I feel good about this plan functioning well for our family.
To recap what modifications I made from the original post:
*Reduced wasted space in master bath, which gave more room to the master bedroom.
*Separated laundry and homeschool office; by reducing "extra" space in the girls' bath and my closet, I was able to niche out enough room for a modest laundry room near the master bedroom, which I think will serve us better as we age. The layout in the laundry is somewhat fluid right now as I'd like to get a closet in there for storing the vacuum cleaner, etc.
* Added a coat closet by the front door to provide storage as well as give the foyer more definition.
*Reduce the living room size to save on square footage.
*Moving the laundry caused us to lose the closed locker storage but we may add it near the living room side door if we feel like space allows.
*The blue overlay shows the area of the original house that will not receive any structural modifications except the window in the girls' bedroom will become a door into the new ensuite.
Things we didn't change/realize break some "rules":
*We didn't add a guest 1/2 bath. We RARELY ever have guests so we don't feel it's necessary to have a 4 1/2 bath house.
*We didn't add a dumbwaiter right now. DH feels that the space in the pantry where the extra freezer is could easily be turned into a dumbwaiter spot since we have access to the basement area directly below it. Plus we can always unload groceries through the front door very easily if we have to.
*We didn't reduce the size of the garage or the "wing addition." In talking with each other and the GC, it wasn't worth it financially or space wise to lose any square footage in that area.
*Changing the location of the kitchen and its openess/visibility to the foyer is likely not to change. Our needs, our community, our family/friends, and style of living don't necessitate that we "hide" the kitchen from the front door. I've lived in homes and communities that did so I do understand why the "rule" exists. However, in our simpler, casual, rural "boonies" area, it's a non-issue :)
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I'm going to post the kitchen and pantry layout in that forum for more specific advice on that.
- PRO
Mark Bischak, Architect
5 years ago User
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoshead
5 years ago@Mark, the problem that exists now with putting a garage on the south end of the house is that our barn and barn lot where we keep our weaned calves is in that direction. Putting a garage there would block DH's view of them and during the most crucial days after weaning, he needs to be able to view them easily from the house. Eventually, we may decide that we want/need an upper level garage on that side (maybe angled from the house) but a carport would provide the car shelter we'd need plus maintain a line of sight. The lower level basement garage addition will help improve the function of the existing basement 10 fold and, according to the GC, will only cost about $15K to add, which is far less expensive than an upper level garage would be. Ironically, everything I just said goes against the advice found in the Farm Knowledge book I just received about how to design the proper homestead house in relation to the barns and other outbuildings...lol.
@RES, we've considered adding a second story, but we really do prefer to have the children on the same level as us. My kids certainly have the "when the cat's away, the mice will play" attitude whenever we are out of sight. We are living in the house currently with DH and I in the existing basement and the kids on the main level and it's not ideal AT ALL. If I were building from scratch, I'd likely do a second story because I do love two-story farmhouses.
Thankfully, we are/will be on location during the design and construction phase. We will have to move into a mobile home that we have on our farm while the work is completed on the house but we've done that in the past at our last location.
FWIW, these are the views I'm trying to protect :-)
South/slightly southeast
West
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5 years agolast modified: 5 years ago- PRO
Mark Bischak, Architect
5 years agolast modified: 5 years ago"Weaned calves" is just one of the many reasons I recommend working with a local architect so they can discover all the information needed to design a home; but you can only do what you can do.
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