When you say compassion with detachment, I think Al Anon. You May find a way to have your friend in your life while detaching with love and letting go of your expectations for her behaviour.

So sorry to see this. It's true the epidemic is so widespread now that almost nobody is untouched.

On a practical note, I think it can be helpful to rehearse one's future responses/replies, so as not to be caught off guard. Since you know the playbook that will be used, it's useful to have your own script in your metaphorical back pocket.

This can work with all kinds of dysfunctional people, BTW.

I have cousin who's gone through similar issues, and I determined long ago not to be sucked into her vortex. I never play acted cold indifference, though. I would say sincerely, "Oh I'm so sorry! That's awful!", etc., and also "I'm sorry, I just can't." or "I'm so sorry, but it's just not possible."

I feel for you. I've been through this with DS2 but we found out his addiction was due to having bipolar disorder. Now he's off the bad drugs and on the good one's. As his mom I wasn't going anywhere. Now if he was a friend, I'd back off.

Before I go on, what exactly is priming? I looked it up and Wikipedia was the only site that made sense, " Drug-priming is exposing the abstinent user to the drug of abuse, which will induce reinstatement of the drug-seeking behavior and drug self-administration."

Can you give me an example of the priming she did to you? Did you have a prescription and she asked for some? Or she wanted you to take some drugs?

I'm one of those who do not believe in letting someone hit rock bottom. If you think hard about what rock bottom really means, then you don't want that either.

Is she married? Does she have close, immediate blood family she loves who would be willing to handle this?

You all could do an intervention but I have a friend who had one done to her last year and she basically told them to buzz off, and they did, for a bit.

Here's the thing. Your friend needs to go to an inpatient drug rehab for a few weeks. It's almost impossible to stop drugs by yourself, depending on how deep the addiction is. If she's now taking heroin which I assume is what you mean by street opioids, she needs to be in a rehab/hospital just to detox so she doesn't die. Then the rehab begins.

But...most people can't afford that, even with insurance paying part of the bill.

Where was she getting the meds before she hit the streets for them, IF that's what she's doing? Was she under a doctor's care? Doctor shopping is hard to do now.

Addiction is awful. People don't mean to become addicted but when they take a drug, they realize how normal it makes them feel, so they do it again and again. That's what happened to my son and most likely your friend.

Bottom line is, if she has a lot of friends and close family members, I'd call it a day with her for now because of your own mental health.

Oakley, priming is an attempt to set up the circumstances to be conducive to a desired outcome. Even non-addicts sometimes use priming as a way to control an outcome. An example of this is when a person feels insecure about what they believe. They might say something like, "You're probably going to think this is stupid, but ..." By prefacing the statement in this way, they believe they're less likely to get a negative response. This type of addict manipulation can leave you blind-sided when the addict goes back out and resumes destructive behavior if you don't know what's happening. More examples:

• Starting an argument with you so they have an excuse to leave.
• Doing nice things for you, like offering gifts or doing chores around the house, in an effort to make you believe they've changed.
• Saying they're a bad person, or they have nothing to live for, in an attempt to get a response from you.
• Excessive apologizing or telling you that they love you often, especially in public.

In the case of my friend, she has used the priming technique in various guises with all of those in her closest circle. Bottom line is that they're setting you up to think or believe or feel or act a certain way that will enable them to continue using and to keep the ball in their own court (or so they believe).

I do wish to say that there is no right answer for the best way to handle the addiction of a loved one. I would most likely handle my own child's addiction differently than my sibling or a friend. And although self preservation has gotten me through my day in a healthier way it might make it worse for someone else in a similar circumstance.

Just like the addict the loved one will fall, stumble and then recover again from time to time aswell. You will find a path that works best for your personal wellbeing but do not judge yourself or how you handle it in the mean time. Take it day by day.

I work in recovery and have a friend who abuses substances too. Despite all my knowledge and training, it was very difficult to cope with my friend's addiction. In desperation, I contacted a Rehab Director who enlightened me about my illusion of "white-coat immunity" and the lethal co-dependency that straddles the razor-thin line between helping someone live and helping someone die. Before I let my friend go, I told him, "I want you to know that I'm always here for you. Not for your disease, but for you, the David, that I know. When you finish treatment I will welcome you home with open arms, but until then, I have to walk away from you."

And know that letting go is not the same as giving up.

I do not think it is possible to maintain a friendship in your 'closest' circle and be healthy for your friend. She will use, manipulate, exploit the feelings you have for her. It is part of the disease. You need to keep telling yourself that. If not in the end you will be subtly if not overtly enabling the addiction. It isn't possible for you to "be there for her" and not have your life messed with as long as she is using.

This is a sad situation and my heart goes out to you watching someone you care about live in addiction. You have to go with your gut and will know which of the above suggestions (all good btw) feels right for you and for your relationship with her. What feels right today may change over time - there's no absolute and you can alter your approach if/when it seems appropriate. I wish peace for you in this situation. It's not easy.

Thank you all for so kindly sharing your thoughts. I have read and re-read what each of you has written, and am taking it all to heart. You've really helped cement in my mind that I must establish and maintain boundaries, for the sake of my own well-being. As to what those boundaries will look like ... I'm still not quite sure. DH is encouraging me to simply take things one day at a time and not to try to project too far into the future as to how all of this could play out, as it is entirely out of my hands. I know this too is good advice. I also know that I have a major "rescuer" gene, coming from a long line of women who did all they could possibly do to try to help others in need -- but I am also understanding my limitations more and more.

Thank you all.

"...DH is encouraging me to simply take things one day at a time and not to try to project too far into the future as to how all of this could play out..."

Smart DH. That's called forecasting and your forecast and subsequent actions are likely to be based on past (bad) experience with the addict - it's a counterproductive set up for both participants.

One thing to remember is that when/if you talk to her, you are talking to the addiction, not her. Also, interventions should be led by a health profession, not just a family or friends.

I think nannygoat gave you superb advice. On a personal note, I did not find Al-Anon helpful to me.

Ida I’m so sorry you have this situation with your friend. I’ve only had to deal with addiction with my family, not friends. You have received good advice I think. Roarah - we have much in common. I could have written much of what you said. Addiction is such a tragic and painful thing for all who are touched by it.

So much good advice! I'm in the middle of a similar situation with my neighbor. I have never considered her a close friend, but she considers me almost her best friend. I have distanced myself quit a bit over the years, but she has been leaning on me during some stressful times this year brought on by her addiction. Last week she was in a bad accident and almost hurt someone. I have told her straight up that I don't believe one bit of the stories that she has told me and that I believe she is addicted to drugs. She's gone to her family in the midwest for the holiday and I'm just praying they can get her into treatment. When she returns I will distance myself unless she needs a ride to detox. I was raised in an alcoholic home and have worked in the restaurant business my whole life. I've seen addiction from every angle and I just can't handle the B.S. of it anymore

What you have to also realize is that she does not view your relationship with her as a friendship. She is only looking for someone to say exactly what you have been saying to her. She is looking for validation of her choices. Only you can decide whether or not you want to enter or stay in this maelstrom of an emotional quagmire (I was going to say sh!tshow but wasn't sure if that word was appropriate) It is likely to get worse.

My father was an alcoholic and did quit drinking when I was 13 but even then the damage for children is done. Since my kids were about 12 I have been very honest with them about the effects of alcohol and the damage it does. When my younger son seemed to be headed down that road when he was in his early 20's I told him I've been down that road once and I wasn't doing it again. Fortunately for us he was able to be strong enough to stop and very seldom drinks.

My thoughts are always with those who struggle with any sort of addiction.

Ida,

The more you share, the more self aware you become, and the more you help all of us be aware as well, so I appreciate your posting.

Prior to school nursing I was a psychiatric nurse and preferred to work with the violent high risk patients rather than the addicts, because for one thing, it was easier. Most of the other nurses and staff felt the same so it was difficult to get people to work with the drug and alcohol addicted patients.

A couple of people have mentioned Al-Anon. Of course you have us, but it is difficult to convey just how devious, demanding, and manipulating an addict can be with his/her family without actually talking to some of the families (and seeing how they coped).

I think everything has been said very well here. I would keep in mind that you are talking to the addicted person not the person she used to be. And probably will never be again.

I guess that means that you have to figure out what you want to say what you want to do and what you want to withhold from the addict. It is so individual but I think it's really good to have a clear picture in your mind of what you really want to offer and what you don't want to offer and that you are not offering it to your friend but an addicted person in need.

It's your choice and you have to make sure that you keep reminding yourself of that.

It is a bumpy road that you are traveling with her. All the best in a difficult situation.

You've really gotten good advice. From my own experience with having addicts in my life, you absolutely, 100% have to let them know you see thru their bull____ and you will NOT give them anything unless they're in treatment. No phone calls, no money-EVER!! No rides, unless, as mentioned before, to treatment. Do not let them in your house because they WILL steal from you. They will come up with every story under the sun, and of course, they're always the victim in these stories.

I know very good people who got addicted and I know that the person they were is gone, replaced by an addict. Once in recovery, they're back, but they have to go thru the recovery process and be clean. My sweet cousin is an addict. She lost custody of her daughter and has been homeless. She called me about a year ago with a typical addict sob story and I knew right away she was only contacting me because she'd used up all her local sources. I told her I loved her but I couldn't help her and then we hung up. I cried for hours but knew I would not be part of her destruction. I just saw a recent photo of her-she looks healthy and good, I think she has been in rehab (again). But I also know that I'm not going to be her lifeline. I'll hug her if I see her, and I'll always love her, but I can't let her drag me down. We were both sexually abused by the same person and but for the Grace of God, I could be her. I can't allow myself to have the pain and negativity that comes with addiction throw me off course. I suffer with depression and that would surely set me off!

How long have you known this woman? Was she a friend before addiction? It might be hard to know when she got addicted because they can hide it for so long, but if you're sure you knew her prior to addiction, then I'd say keep her in your prayers but keep her at a distance. If she's a fairly new friend, or you suspect she's been an addict they whole time you've known her, then you might just have to cut your ties out of self preservation.

I'm so sorry Ida. This is one of the hardest things to deal with. Your heart wants to help, and turning away from a person in pain seems to be anathema to your core values. Maybe tell her you know she's addicted and needs help. Then it's up to her if she wants to continue the relationship-but on honest terms. Love to you.

Jen, can you give more information? With her not being a family member and not having to deal with her constantly, I was curious if she's contacting you daily? Is she calling, texting, or stopping by your house on a regular basis? If not then all you need to do is ignore her when she does contact you.

You can't be the only one caught up in this roller coaster. Where is her family, and are there other friends in your group being contacted by her? Have you all talked about it?

If you can give some examples of what she's doing it might be easier to help you. Being a family member is one thing, being a friend is another.

Don't do this alone, talk to others in your group of friends.

Thanks for the further input. I appreciate greatly the thoughts that have been shared here. I don't want to divulge further details; suffice it to say that I've known her a while, but upon reflection I cannot be 100% certain that I've ever known her when she wasn't using in some form. It's not so much help with the specifics of my own situation that I'm in need of, but in what you've shared based upon your experiences, I clearly see how vital it is to erect solid boundaries. I intend to do so. Actually, I already have started doing so. Your words solidify the opinions I was already forming about my situation.

I've started reading a book called "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie, after recognizing myself in what she's written about codependents being people who tend to obsess over the situations in the lives of those they care for, often to the point where they themselves become incapable of functioning normally. To a lesser degree, codependence can also mean something as seemingly "innocent" as taking it upon oneself to "fix" the mood of a person who is feeling down or depressed, and just being much too attached to the emotions that other people are exhibiting. That describes me perfectly. So far, the book has been enlightening and I suspect it will be an added help. I am learning more about how distancing myself from someone else's issues doesn't mean I don't care, but is in fact many times the only sane thing to do.

Ida, as a middle child and a family member of many addicts, grandparents and siblings, I spent most of my life trying to fix everything. In my stroke recovery therapy this past month my neuropsychologist has me working on how to fix my codependent behavior with in my immediate non addicted family.

It seems that although I have stepped away from my pattern of enabling addicts I still try to control my children, parents' and husband's happiness to unhealthy expectations. In the six weeks since having two massive strokes, I interviewed and started a small part time job, I hosted sleepovers, birthday parties, thanksgiving and christmas( family helped with Xmas quite a bit but I am sitting in an uncleared mess because they did not seem to realize that cleaning before and after is part of hosting). It is physically exhausting and slowing my recovery so yesterday I said enough.

I want to warn you as you change your patterns expect your loved ones to possibly resent your new healthier non codependent behaviors. Both my 12 year old and DH are upset that yesterday I refused to have our neighbors here this year for New Years. I will happily let the neighbors' host this year but for the last five years I am the only one to offer. I am happy with a quiet early night if no one fills in the venue but my family counts on the traditions I created and sustain and I can not nor want to continue it any more.

This change of me finally saying no to things that I only do for others and not myself is hard for my loved ones to understand. After being the magic maker in your family and friends' life relinquishing that role will change dynamics of relationships greatly but it is needed for your recovery as a codependent addict. Codependency is In itself an addictive trait.

Good luck on your own discovery and recovery. Stay strong and true to your needs even if it affects the non addicts in your circle.

Ida, thank you for sharing that info on codependency and Roarah, thank you for sharing the info on the kind of behavior that can morph into with non-addicts. I can see that I have issues with feeling overly responsible for the mood of DH. I also take responsibility for everything sometimes at the expense of my own well being. That along with the perfectionism that comes with being a child of alcoholic parents can suck the life out of you. I’m cognizant of this behavior and usually realize when I have to back off and just let things go. The more I do it the more comfortable I get with it. It is reassuring to hear from someone else with similar issues. I imagine it’s easier when I’m only dealing with one person - DH. Thank you again for sharing with us.

Letting go is an interesting concept, isn't it? I grew up hearing words like, "Oh, I'm just SO worried about ...", mostly from the women in my life. I believe some of us are more apt than others to internalize those words and to associate them with caring and nurturing, twisted though that may be. That's certainly where I find myself. To let go and emotionally detach feels very foreign to me, and while I'm sure I will learn more of how to go about it as I read and continue to explore the idea, I'm finding that it has a tremendous amount to do with making a conscious shift to living in the moment. As one who has always "lived in my head" -- coming up with running narratives for future events and replaying/rehashing past events over and over -- this is a very strange sensation. I'll admit that I often am unable to STAY in the moment for very long, but I suspect that with practice, it becomes a learned behavior.

Ida, I am trying to conquer my anxiety and habit of ruining today by worrying about tomorrow through mindfulness CBT. It is proven to be one of very few successful treatments for ptsd, which I have aquired since my DH's rectal cancer diagnosis and has returned after my strokes and APS diagnosis. It is a learned behavior and my therapist assures me I can learn it with practice but it is hard to rewire a brain set to ruminate with thoughts of past trauma and future worry. One trick that has helped me is to do something for 8 minutes, clean, play an app game, read, etc. when I catch my thoughts looping. 8 minutes is the magic number studies have shown to let go of anxious or painful recurring thoughts of worry.

Very interesting, roarah! 8 minutes, eh? I wonder why that's the magic number. Maybe it's just long enough - but not TOO long. Doing something else (besides ruminating) for 8 minutes probably can feel longer than it actually is too.

I am not sure why 8 minutes either. But studies have shown that both the practice of distraction and the practice of mindfulness work to stop rumination in its tracks but problem solving does not work. I know I am a problem solver by design and believe you to be as well. For me distraction is easier than practicing mindfulness in my early stages of treatment. Mindfulness is my ultimate goal though. I just am not evolved enough in its practice to get me through the day yet, thus I am using distraction when I find my mind looping with worries.

interesting study, on youths but still applicable to adults. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3432145/

another qick link to the effects of rumination on our bodies https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24467256

IdaClaire, years ago I read (and reread) "Codependent No More" after exiting an unhealthy relationship. Very helpful to me in recognizing that I had issues, as well. I'm now married to an LADC and we just celebrated our 18th anniversary. I probably need to read it again to foster more healthy relationships at work, though.

On topic, you're getting excellent advice on your thread and my wish for you is the resolution you need to survive this situation.

Best regards,

Carol

Thanks for the links, roarah! I read both articles, and they are indeed fascinating and quite telling. I am also curious as to the precise (studied, documented) physical effects stress has on our bodies. You state that it was a factor in your physical illness, and I absolutely believe you. Living with one's insides wound as tight as a coil, bound up by ceaseless anxiety, must take a toll that we can't even begin to imagine. For those of us prone to such a thing, it's extremely disconcerting. This alone prompts me to want to get out from under codependent behavior. The ensuing inner calm feelings will just be icing on the cake.

Lately I've found my cats to be excellent therapy. Often when I wake in the middle of the night with thoughts running through my head, I'll turn to find one of the cats next to me. Petting her, focusing my full attention on the softness of her fur, the feel of her purr beneath my hand -- these things seem to center me and bring me fully into the present moment. That's not to say that the anxious thoughts completely fade away, but it does seem to alleviate them to a strong degree.

Carol, it's an excellent book, isn't it? Ms. Beatty writes in a clear and easily-understood manner, and because she is a codependent herself, she exudes compassion and empathy for her reader. I'm reading it on my Kindle, but would also like to own a hard copy of the book. I can see how it would be something I'd want to pull off the shelves from time to time, if only to read certain passages again.

This is from roarah's first posted article

Mindfulness involves purposely focusing on mental events in a nonjudgmental manner. It allows individuals to acknowledge negative emotions without pushing them away or becoming overwhelmed; rather, view them as passing mental events. Mindfulness is thought to allow individuals to disengage from rumination by directing attention to the present moment

Now I just have to learn the nonjudgmental manner behaviour. I'm working on it. And yes to the looping thoughts that roarah also mentioned.

One thing that has helped me keep the looping thoughts at bay is running and going to the gym. I do one or the other every day because I know that for at least an hour a day my brain is preoccupied with something else. I used to road run but it became easy for those "need to solve the problem" thoughts to take over. Trail running on very technical trails as I do, requires more paying attention so no negative thoughts intruding.

IdaClaire - thanks for starting this thread, It has been really insightful. You all are a great group of people.

Blfenton, I read something last week about walking in nature vs walks in an urban setting for distraction or mindfulness.Nature walks were proven to be more successful in rumination elimination! You figured it out on your own!

I can't give any advice as I myself handled similar situation very poorly-it was street heroine..I was distraught, mortified..I didn't know one can't really talk to the person who's high, or right after high, or..in short it was a fail on my side, this attempt of intervention

My friend whom I deeply loved wasn't manipulative or dishonest or..

(well she did ask me for some money and told it's for something else. then she told me the truth though)

She just disappeared from my life..not right away but pretty fast. I wasn't able to really help her..

She re-emerged, on her own initiative, after couple years, when already being clean

Now -many years after-relationship is off again..not because of addiction, many other things happenned since

It's very painful as her life is very not easy, she's incredibly smart, very gifted, and she's kind but no sense of danger which puts her in awful situations ..she's damaged-well I'm kinda damaged too, but next to her I'm a beacon of normalcy and ordinary life..and I want to be there for her, and hell, I simply love her, it was a good friendship

All I can do is try to reach out sometimes , and wait-will she answer? will she not?

Right now, she doesn't.

It's very hard to detach myself. Frankly I'm not even trying, not on a big level. I know I'll have better days and worse days. I won't succeed in becoming a different personality-I can just try and control myself a tiny tiny bit better. Also I guess what's bad for me-is good for society..)) I probably was brought up, not consciously so, to be what's better for other people. It backfires of course. But I guess it is good overall..for other people..

I understand there is a healthy balance somewhere out there, but I've no hope to achieve it. I made some very modest success with years.

Sometimes I can't detach myself if something horrible happens to people I hardly know. I stop functioning, and can take me weeks to function again. Then I can try not to think about it, just not to think about it. I try to distract myself-sometimes some phrase helps (something like "I need to peel some potatoes"-as silly and detached as possible), or some gesture like touching my elbow or something..whatever they say helps when one has PTSD. PTSD is not mine per se-but same things can be helpful.

It's very interesting about eight minutes..I remembered that at Jewish weddings we have this very old tradition-bride and groom go for eight minites to a separate room. After being already wed. Right after actually.

And as somebody who was the bride..it was best eight minutes throughout the whole wedding lol.

I'm very much with you..I wish you lots of strength and..you know, people do get better sometimes. When they decide so themselves..or for the sake of their kids..in short something very strong within them that drives them.

You can just try and stay in her life, a bit in shadows so to say, without driving yourself completely crazy. It's very hard to do.

For those who have the slightest inkling that they may be codependent, I cannot recommend highly enough "Codependent No More" by Melodie Beatty. Are you a rescuer / caretaker? Does this resonate with any of you? It certainly does with me.

"As codependents, we spend much of our time rescuing. We try to be living proof that people can outgive God ... Some of us become so tired from the enormous burden - total responsibility for all human beings - that we may skip the feelings of pity and concern that accompany the rescue act and move ahead to anger. We're angry all the time; we feel anger and resentment towards potential victims. A person with a need or problem provokes us to feel we HAVE to do something or feel guilty. After a rescue, we make no bones about our hostility towards this uncomfortable predicament. I have frequently seen this happen to people in helping professions. After so many years of rescuing - giving so much and receiving far less in return - many professional helpers adopt a hostile attitude towards their clients. They may continue to hang in there and keep 'helping' them anyway, but they will usually leave their profession feeling terribly victimized, according to some counselors.

Caretaking doesn't help; it causes problems. When we take care of people and do things we don't want to do, we ignore personal needs, wants, and feelings. We put OURSELVES aside. Sometimes, we get so busy taking care of people that we put our entire lives on hold. Many caretakers are harried and overcommitted; they enjoy none of their activities. Caretakers look so responsible, but we aren't. We don't assume responsibility for our highest responsibility -- ourselves.

We consistently give more than we receive, then feel abused and neglected because of it. We wonder why, when we anticipate the needs of others, no one notices OUR needs. We may become seriously depressed as a result of not getting our needs met. Yet, a good caretaker feels safest when giving; we feel guilty and uncomfortable when someone gives to us or when we do something to meet our needs. Sometimes, codependents may become so locked into a caretaker role that we feel dismayed and rejected when we can't caretake or rescue someone -- when someone refuses to be 'helped.'

The worst aspect of caretaking is we become and stay victims. I believe many serious self-destructive behaviors -- chemical abuse, eating disorders, sexual disorders -- are developed through this victim role. As victims, we attract perpetrators. We believe we need someone to take care of us, because we feel helpless ...

Why, you might ask, would apparently rational people do this rescuing? Many reasons. Most of us aren't even aware of what we're doing. Most of us truly believe we're helping. Some of us believe we HAVE to rescue. We have confused ideas about what constitutes help and what doesn't. Many of us are convinced that rescuing is a charitable deed. We may even think it cruel and heartless to do something as cold-blooded as allowing a person to work through or face a legitimate feeling, suffer a consequence, be disappointed by hearing 'no', be asked to respond to our needs and wants, and generally be held responsible and accountable for him- or herself in this world. Never mind that they will certainly pay a price for our 'helping' - a price that will be as harsh as or more severe than any feeling they may be facing.

Many of us do not understand what we are responsible for and what we are not responsible for. We may believe we have to get into a tizzy when someone has a problem because it is our responsibility to do that. Sometimes, we become sick of feeling responsible for so much that we reject all responsibility and become totally irresponsible.

However, at the heart of most rescues is a demon: low self-worth. We rescue because we don't feel good about ourselves. Although the feelings are transient and artificial, caretaking provides us with a temporary hit of good feelings, self-worth, and power. Just as a drink helps an alcoholic momentarily feel better, a rescue move momentarily distracts us from the pain of being who we are. We don't feel lovable, so we settle for being needed. We don't feel good about ourselves, so we feel compelled to do a particular thing to PROVE how good we are."

Oh Ida, that’s very interesting. So you could grow up with the typical low self esteem found in children of alcoholics and even though you may escape chemical addiction you develop rescuer addiction. Hmmm....

Thank you for posting that excerpt, Ida. I was not understanding the co-dependency conversation very well at first. I get it much better now. There is a big distinction between wanting to make the people in your life happy when the relationship is reciprocal as opposed to what is described by Beattie.

I think it's very interesting too. I know I'm a card-carrying rescuer, but for the life of me, I cannot understand how this came to be. To the best of my recollection, I had a rather idyllic childhood. My parents were not addicts or abusers, nor was my family dynamic dysfunctional. (I'm sure it wasn't perfect, but I truly have no unpleasant memories of childhood.) There must be many complex layers that make us who and what we are, though. It's fascinating to delve into it all.

ETA: I'm reading that we can actually develop our rescuer persona later in life; doesn't have to develop in childhood necessarily. That may explain some things for me, as I was in a relationship with a young man from age 17-25 who was extremely irresponsible and foolhardy. I was oftentimes at my wits' ends trying to pull him through one crisis or another, and clean up the messes he'd leave in his wake.

well I don't know..how one separates between "legit feeling" and "artificial feeling", for example?

Either you hold to the notion that every feeling is valid-it's what you do with it..and that's what most therapists will tell you

Or you're saying that no, some feelings are in fact artificial

This one thing already begs for finding oneself in some cognitive loop

We're also not born as some blank pieces of paper..we're born with certain temperament, predispositions, some are more sensitive, some are less..we're born into different circumstances..we deal with different traumas..yes, it's many complex layers.

Some things do resonate with me, and some don't. For example I'm rarely angry. If I'm angry it's already wow, a victory. Lol. Can take me years or decades to become angry. And usually won't be toward a victim. Would be toward a penetrator. If it's about myself.

If it's not about myself-it's easier to become angry with penetrators of course.

Angry can be good and healthy too when it's not often when you actually feel it.

And sometimes when one feels others' pain..well..what can he do better? Not feel it? At some point, he'll feel it less. When the situation will be less acute, or after some time, or when something else happens-because something else always does.

He is who he is. He can try to behave in such a way that won't be a burden to others, but rather will be wise..and he'll handle his own feelings the best he can-as long as he's indeed aware of what's helpful, what's not, what battles to fight, etc.

And yes he's more prone of getting heart attack or something. While doing all that.

Other people have other lessons to learn. They might be healthier in this-but maybe they need to work on something else.

I didn't meet a lot of perfect people..:) With very high self awareness, and wisdom, and all. And there's another very complicated term that fortunately or not, slips my mind right now. It kinda coins what we would want to be, the highest level of achieving this balance between you and others..but most people never get there.

ETA: (..or is it perpetrators? I'm suddenly mortified))

Years ago I had a friend at work who was addicted to prescription medications. It was in the early 2000’s at the start of the epidemic. When she could no longer get whatever she was prescribed from her doctor, she found a website that was selling them from some foreign country like Africa. It wasn’t until she had ran up about $20,000 in credit card debt that it all came to a head because her DH finally found one of the CC bills she’d been hiding. It ultimately cost her her 15 year marriage, her son and her job. She even went so far as to commit some fairly serious financial crimes to support herself. The drugs completely changed her from a wife, mother and friend to someone we no longer knew. It was horrible.

She finally hit bottom when everyone in her world had walked away from her. She eventually cleaned herself up but she’s still trying to get back on her feet finacially and it’s been over 10 years. I text with her now and then when she reaches out, but I have no interest in having a real friendship with her again. I could never trust her or see past the horrible things she did, things that to this day she has no remorse for. I can see that you care deeply for this person and I’m so sorry you’re going through this with her. I hope that in the end, things work out with a good outcome.

I found this video and showed it to my group therapy clients. Dr. Guy Winch discusses the importance of recognizing and treating emotional injuries and it's well worth the 17-minute investment.

https://www.ted.com/talks/guy_winch_the_case_for_emotional_hygiene?language=en

Very informative nannygoat - thank you. That’s kind of a good guide to assess yourself and what you do or don’t do for your emotional well being - your emotional resiliience as he says - and how to improve it if needed. I also didn’t know what rumination was and now I do.

Yes, nannygoat - thank you so much for sharing that link. What an excellent Ted Talk, and I am really going to take to heart what he says about ruminating. There is so much important truth in his words.

Rorah, I had the most amazing therapist-he literally brought me from a lost, totally off the charts depressed person who'd basically had a nervous breakdown, to feeling strong and capable again. He tells me it was all my doing! But he and I practiced something called PST-Problem Solving Therapy which is another form of CBT and it used a lot of mindfuless techniques and taught me to stop all the negative self talk.

I'm not cured-by any means, I don't think that people with lifelong depressive disorders and anxiety disorders get cured, but they can be managed. So I have to practice some of techniques daily. I know that I was, and am still at times, a rescuer, but I work hard to set boundaries and am learning self preservation.

I'm horrible at articulating what I want to say, but what do we do when our own happiness depends on a loved one's happiness? A while back I mentioned how DH became very moody and short tempered after he got sick (heart failure) and can change on a dime, even though he seems to be physically okay at the moment, but still sick.

And 3 years ago when my son divorced his wife less than a year after they moved into the big beautiful house they built next door to us!!,,,,it killed me. Both DH and myself became deeply depressed and that's an understatement, and then DH got sick.

My life was pretty damn near perfect.

The only thing I can do to keep my thoughts from racing (I'm also ADHD) is to play games on my iPad and read. The games takes my mind off everything.

I too suffer from PTS due to when DS2 developed bipolar disorder and we thought it was all drugs causing that behavior. It wasn't, it was both. He'd be home from college for a few days (he developed the disorder right before his senior year) and I knew without a doubt he was drug free, then BOOM!, a door would slam, the dogs running to me out of fear.

When his first symptoms appeared and I didn't know it, I emailed both sons telling them their dad would be out of town for a couple of days and not to call me at night. That afternoon I got hang up calls 20 times in a row with caller i.d. showing "Private." I figured out it was DS2 and he stopped.

Thank God that behavior stopped, but now I jump when the phone rings, if you look at me cross eye'd I want to cry but I can't cry because of the antidepressants, lol, and all I can do is go play my game or read.

I have xanax but I rarely take it.

The family peace keeper is what I am which I learned from a book about adult chldren of alcoholics. My dad was a functioning alcoholic and I cringe when I see someone in my family drink.

So if DH gets in a mood my PTS kicks in. If my bipolar son gets into a mild manic mood, it kicks in. If someone walks up behind me, it kicks in and I jump.

Sorry to ramble but it felt good! But you know what? It's nice to know I'm not the only one quietly suffering, that I'm in good company, even though I hate that you all are suffering too.

Oakley, I believe you (like me, and surely like others here) exhibit classic "rescuer" traits. You asked what one does when one depends on another person for their happiness, and I'm coming to understand that therein lies the crux of the issue. We seek our inner peace from outer sources. We rescuers are ok as long as everyone in our circle is ok, but how long can that possibly hold? Eventually, something will happen to someone we love -- either of their own doing or otherwise -- and that's when we jump into our rescuer boots and go about doing what we believe we do best. It's a farce though, and it only serves to cement our codependence. You seem to recognize these things in yourself, as well, and I therefore highly recommend you read the book by Melodie Beatty mentioned above. I think it can help. It's certainly helping me. All the best to you.

My sister sent me a note last night saying that her youngest child (26) was getting a divorce from his wife of 3 years. The first thing I wanted to do was to phone her and try to problem solve it. Thanks to you guys I didn't. I sent her a note back just saying how sorry I was. Baby steps, baby steps. I am the eldest of 6 children and I had an alcoholic father. Oh boy. I am going to check out the book.

blfenton, I'm so happy that you were able to make a different choice based upon this discussion. Well done! I'm sorry about the divorce. My instant reaction would've been to problem-solve as well. Baby steps are vital. I also agree with neetsiepie that some disorders aren't curable but can absolutely be managed so that our quality of life is greatly enhanced. And I just know that I don't want to live the rest of my days immersed in episodic drama that drains my spark.

IdaClaire, I have so many thoughts regarding all that, and I admit they're kinda in racing stage yet, and not worth sharing, or at least not here and now. Wrong time, wrong place, wrong me. But I wanted to say thank you for opening this tread-no, it's not a happy one, and it's painful, but it is needed nevertheless. It led me to some new understandings, some new..connecting between the dots. It might be that my dots are situated on a different graph, and I'll connect them accordingly in slightly different way-no matter, I'm immensely grateful to you and others here, it takes a lot to start a conversation like this, a lot to participate. Well I lack proper words as I've told already , so I'll limit myself to saying thank you, and yes, reality doesn't take a holiday, in fact it actively seeks out holidays sometimes to emerge in all its glory and squalor.

Blfenton, good work!

Great video Nannygoat.

(( Oakley)). After years of being the glue that seems to hold our families together we ourselves become undone. Our happiness should be intrinsic but people like us think it can be found extrinsically. Outside sources of happiness, like alcohol or drugs or food disorders, only mask our unhappiness temporally and superficially.

It is time for you to put your oxygen mask on first. You need to let yourself come first. I, like neetsipie, believe anxiety, depression or the codependent nature that comes with these diseases can not be cured but I know they can be successfully treated. Treatment is a life long process and requires work and practice and yes sometimes medication aswell. It is not unlike your husband's medical diagnosis. Although it will always exist, exercise, healthy eating and meds will help improve his health and life expectancy even when the disease it self is still present.

Take care of yourself just as you would if you had a life threatening physical illness. Stress, anxiety and the immflamation they come with can be a cause linked to all illnesses including heart disease, autoimmune diseases like ms, breast and CRC cancers, dementia and addictions. Xo

I have read and reread this thread thinking how I might handle this situation with a friend. I went through this with my daughter and it took a near death and an intervention to finally begin to turn things around. I honestly don't think I could live through it again although it might be different with a friend as the emotional attachment would be at a different level. You have to "protect" yourself from the toxicity because as I learned it really does poison you. I will say that recovery is possible and it needs to be a lifelong process. I am thankful to have my beautiful daughter back and that she is healthy,happy and successful. She is also the strongest woman I know. Support your friend with your encouragement. The Serenity prayer says it all.

I, too, have been reading this thread with great interest. The whole co-dependency "need" is quite foreign to me, but I commend all of you for reaching out on this forum. It's quite eye opening and I am thinking specifically of a long time friend who I think has some of these tendencies. I need to read up so thanks for the resources.

One thing that has helped me understand the line between being helpful and being co-dependent, was when a friend told me that any time I am upset with someone it is because he/she is not giving me something I want from him/her. In my life this was a problem with my much adored grandmother, who could drive me crazy with some pretty unhealthy behaviors. Once I understood that what felt like "helping" the other person to me was actually trying to control her, I was able to let go. It still hurts when someone is being self-destructive (my grandmother refused to wear hearing aids and suffered terrible isolation as a result, for example.)

My oldest son’s addiction would have literally killed me if I had not found Al Anon. I learned to detach with love, not enable and to come to a place of acceptance. It was very hard and very painful. DH and I had to actually tell our son to leave our home when he was 17 to protect ourselves and our other children. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I am so grateful that my son found recovery, but even if he hadn’t I would still be ok. I wish you and your friend the best. Addiction is a terrible and tragic disease.