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grout cracks bathroom

5 years ago

I have large format porcelain tile. after the contractor left we noticed that there were cracks between the tile wall and compound ceiling, and also in the corner of the shower between tile and tile. we haven't started using the shower yet.

three of the tiles near the top of the shower look mildly buckled or scratched as well. it's not very noticeable so we never saw it until now.

how can I fix this grout issue myself? silicone into the crack?

thanks...

Featured Answer

User

5 years ago

Caulk is required at all changes of plane. The grout has to be removed first.

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Comments (10)

J Hack
5 years ago
Is this new construction or did you pay someone to do work for the bathroom? If it is new work I would talk to them about fixing it. I had a similar issue with my last home. But it was after over a year and the house settling that they showed up. I used silicon caulk to fill the voids and prevent any moisture from getting through.
Sindy W
Original Author
5 years ago
completely new bathroom. just noticed it. haven't even used it yet.

i think I'll put silicone caulk into the cracks but don't know if I need to scrape out the joint completely first.
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I believe "change of plane" means where that area is not perfectly level. Its sometimes difficult to see with the naked eye. Anywhere that the tile meets another surface, i.e., wall-window, shower wall-to-floor, tub-to-floor, etc. should be caulked. I've had this grout cracking in my shower just below the window sill and removed it and filled it in with a silicone latex caulk that matched my grout color.
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I thought you were in MA, not ME. The good news is that if it's the PT that shrank, it's done. The bad news is that if the soil is undergoing expansions and contraction cycles...it's unstable. I don't have a vast amount of experience working in clay, but I had a big bucks job in clay years ago. We actually set up something similar to a drip irrigation system around the perimeter of the foundation. The purpose was that the drip irrigation would keep the clay continually moist so it wouldn't undergo movement cycles as the clay dried and rewet. It'd essentially stay permanently wet and not move. Any excess moisture was removed by foundation perimeter and footing drains. Now, you wrote that the crawl space is sealed up... 1) For clarification, I'm assuming that there is a concrete foundation around the perimeter of this addition? Or is it built on piers? 2) If it's a poured foundation, was a rat slab (thin 2" poured slab) or a full slab poured in the crawl space? Or is the bottom of the subfloor open to soil on the ground? 3) With the clay, did your dad have any engineering analysis done with regards to soil movement or stabilization? As to "what now"...was this a Kerdi shower? Or did it have a topical membrane (HydroBan, RedGard, etc)? I remember your shower but forget the specifics of how it was built. If Kerdi, the cracks are sort of inconsequential when it comes to water penetrating into the walls. The cracks are more cosmetic unless they really open up. I'd get in touch with your installer regarding the details of the walls. Depending on how the walls were detailed/waterproofed might give you a warm fuzzy regarding letting things sit as they are while you see if movement has stabilized versus taking action (caulk the crack, etc) if water penetration may be a concern. I'd mark the ends of the cracks with blue tape and keep an eye to see if the cracks extend or if the movement has stopped or stabilized.
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Curb movement like that is typically from a wood-built curb (stacked 2-by lumber, for example) that is absorbing moisture and expanding/swelling. How is moisture getting to the curb? Could be one of several things. Not sure how conscientious the installer was in terms of making sure the shower pan membrane is sloped (versus laying the membrane flat on a flat subfloor), or how he detailed the membrane over the curb. It's possible there are nails through the top or inside faces of the curb (and thus through the membrane) and moisture is getting through the nail holes. It's possible that he built you a perfect curb but used wet pressure-treated wood and the PT wood is warping as it dries. Or your house is on a slab, and he put the wood right on the slab. Moisture through the slab is causing the wood curb to expand. So it could be one of several things. It should be fairly easy to diagnose though, as the tiles are popping off on the outside face of the curb. They'll have to be removed eventually to diagnose and repair. When they are removed, take a look to see what's in there. Post photos if you can. To give you a bit of an education as to how a typical CPE-membraned shower with a wood curb is built, check out Harry's pictorial. Note that Harry's membrane is "draped" over the wood curb. That there are no nails/screws on the top or inside face of the curb. That the lathe (wire mesh) is bent in a "U" shape and it's simply the inverted "U" bends that hold it over the curb. Again, there are no fasteners through the lathe and into the top or inside face of the curb. I have seen instances where the membrane gets draped over the wood curb, then the installer nails cement board on the three faces of the curb and tiles on the cement board. Not good. Again, nails through the membrane on the top and inside face are a no-no. I don't see screws through the bottom track of your door frame that go into the curb. That's good. Best, Mongo
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If I "ignore" the issue, and just caulk over the crack, what's the worst that could happen? Second worst: Water leaks behind the caulk, destroys the studs behind the tile and the joists in the floor, and you have to rip out the whole shower stall, wall and floor and replace everything. And do mold remediation. Worst: Water leaks in there, destroys the studs behind the tile and the joists in the floor, and you step in the shower one morning and the joists give way and you and the shower stall end up in the basement. No fooling, this happened to a friend ... he caulked around the base of a leaky toilet because he didn't want to have to remove/replace toilet and fix the problem. About a year later he sat on the toilet and ended up in the basement because the joists had rotted. The paramedics were amused.
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Sindy W
Original Author
5 years ago
completely new construction in this area of the house so I expect nothing to be wrong. however I feel like there be some settling because the tile on the top part looks a bit buckled....
MongoCT
5 years ago
New construction...wood moves, especially new wood if green and not kiln dried. Surfaces can undergo differential movement; one wall versus the other, or versus a ceiling. The movement is absorbed in the corners.

Changes in plane should be caulked. Caulk is flexible and can absorb movement. Grout is rigid and may crack.

It's best to not just shmear caulk over the cracked grout. This is new work, have the worker come back, remove the grout in those joints, and replace the grout with caulk, and inspect the tile in question.

Caulk is available to match the grout; in both color and texture.

Caulk versus grout in changes-of-plane is a basic and fundamental rule in lightweight shower construction. I do hope the materials behind the tile were correctly chosen, installed and detailed.
Jeff Meeks
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
+1 on current specs on to le work requiring joints at changes in plane to be caulked not grouted.
millworkman
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
"completely new construction in this area of the house so I expect nothing to be wrong."

And the hits just keep on coming. Is this under the area with the floor height issues? The screwed up footings with the 2 x 4's wedged in? Everuone told you two months ago to hold this guys feet to the fire and since then you have come across issues everywhere. Now you're finding out why we offered the advice we offered.
Sindy W
Original Author
5 years ago
it's near but not at the part of the house with the leveling issues. but I can't tell because the tile floor makes it hard to know if there are any issues with leveling here.

those janky footings were added at the 11th hour and the inspector passed them. the rest of the foundation and support structures were deemed ok by the architect / structural engineer who crawled under to inspect it.

but honestly I have no clue.

I have learned my lesson to just tear stuff doesn't completely and don't try to renovate existing structure from the 1950s. it's expensive and horrible. all the contractors and architects suggested for me to renovate. it's just not worth it!!!!
millworkman
5 years ago
The problem is you are asking for advice on all your issues independently of each other with no explanation that you have no idea if every issue you have encountered may be releated to and or helping cause the other issues. Maybe not but no one can be sure because you do not know. I understand you are very frustrated but no one can determone exactly what your issues are and how to fix them without knowing how they all relate to each other.
Sindy W
Original Author
5 years ago
I kinda figured out what's happening actually. the cracks in the grout were only the beginning. the top row of large format tiles which were vertically oriented actually are buckled. this is at the seam between the old house and the new house. is not obviously structurally unsound but must have settled... either that or the Hardie board was installed crooked causing strain... i should have put smaller tiles or placed the tiles horizontally. probably high enough not to be a major leak concern. I'll observe this for a few months.

the grout cracking actually looks more like shrinkage to me but they should have used caulk. people are just telling me to caulk over it rather than chiseling out the grout.

all the floor leveling issues were caused by trying to make new sister joists across the floors, but not being able to change out the old joists which are embedded under the walls. the old and new joists were milled at different sizes (cannot get match) so it caused some discrepancy. again not structurally dangerous but annoying. not sure if it's worth fixing but I'll get a different structural engineer and a leveling company to look at it.

so same underlying cause, different symptoms.

in another post I noted the stairs cracking. this was just general crappy cosmetic workmanship and not structural.

what a pain in the @$$

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