Arcy: THAT is not a reason for the rest of us to pretend this is typical or ok or anything but DISORDERED. A paraplegic will NEVER walk. That does not mean we pretend they can ...

Paraplegic walks again-The Guardian

My neighbor’s son is transgender. He had a female body but from the moment he was old enough to express any opinions, he gravitated toward traditional male choices. He refused anything pink and sparkly and loved superheroes. This was at age three. He insisted on short hair and even asked for boys underwear. His mom is an amazing human being. It took her a little while to accept this but once she realized her child was not just going through a tomboy stage, she supported him entirely. Their synagogue had a special ceremony to officially change his name. Now he is 11 and very much a boy. He plays on the boys teams and belongs to the Boy Scouts. After observing this over the years, I thoroughly believe that being transgender is a natural human condition. I do think someone with a masculine physique has an advantage over some, but not all, female athletes.

Speaking of transgender athletes, who remembers Renee Richards? She had courage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

I follow sports with Lars. :)

Organizing sports by size/weight classes makes more sense than by gender. Hey, if some men played women's basketball, maybe the WNBA players would make as much money as NBA players for the same job!

Dedtired, that is such sweet and touching anecdotal evidence. I hope that little boy knows that he is cherished for exactly who he is. It is our souls that make us precious in the sight of that which is eternal, not our fragile, transient bodies.

The day has come when we as a society will no longer reject others as defective based solely on our inability to fully understand that which makes them different. The day has come when we are going to speak out for the rights of others to live freely as they choose, without fear, without shame, without so very many ending their own lives due to the unspeakable pain of rejection and hatred. The day has come when those who contort contextless words from some ancient text in an attempt to defend their own fear and willful ignorance will no longer have the loudest voices or the final say. The day has come when the countless who have chosen to be allies of their LGBTQ brothers and sisters are standing up to the ugliness in this world and shining light into its darkness, breaking the hold it has had for much too long.

And my GOD, but aren't you glad it is truly a new day?!?

Sorry for the highjack. Ugly opportunism above hit a nerve.

Thank you for the responses. I really appreciate reading everyone’s opinions.

I disagree that sports should be organized by size/weight irrespective of sex. Women will lose almost everytime. Again, men do not have breasts. Men have stronger ligaments. Men have different pelvis-knee angles, more advantageous to sports. Men have denser bones. Men have much greater muscle mass. Men have broader shoulders. A 5’8” male is not the same body as a 5’8” female.

I believe that transgender people truly are born as the wrong sex. But because they are victims of biology does not mean that we need to victimize another group. I’m not going to pretend that trans women werent born males and developed as males when it comes to sports. I will, however, acknowledge them as women in every other respect. I believe they should have the right to marry who they want, use the restroom of their choosing, dress how they choose, etc.

In addition to the world championship track race:

Two transgender girls took the 1st and 2nd place in the CT 100 m at state track meet and the 1st place in the 200 m.

A trans woman won the Australian International weightlifting competition

A trans girl won third place at an AK state championship track race.

A trans woman KO’ed her competitor in a martial arts competition in 2:17, breaking her eye socket, severely injuring her eye, and gave her a concussion.

A transgender woman won the Tour de Tuscon, the largest cycling race in AZ.

Part of me does want to cheer these trans women on, but for the most part, I feel sorry for the women who lost to competitiors who were unfairly matched.

There are some issues that just don't really have good answers. I take the point that this is arguably unfair competition. I also take the point that all types of innate differences we are born with are "unfair" too.

One thing that sways me is that I highly doubt this person became a transgender in order to have a competitive advantage in a sport, or that anyone would do so.

Mtn- I am certain none of these transgender individuals changed sex to compete. But that doesnt change the fact that transgender women likely have an unfair advantage. Imagine a competitor that you and the other XX women can NEVER beat, no matter how hard you train. This is why the woman who was originally expected to win the cycling competition pulled out of the race when she saw the 200 lb trans woman had entered the race.

I understand that, Rocky... as I mentioned in my first paragraph, I understand how unfair it feels.

But i mention that because intent matters, at least to me.

I don't think there is a perfect answer to this question that is "fair" to all.

@mtn - agree that there is no answer that is“fair” to all. However, it just takes one trans woman to win a race over 100 fairly evenly matched woman cyclists. Who do you want to be fair to? The one trans woman who will always win, or the 100 cyclists, one of which stands a chance of winning? If it’s the trans woman, then the 100 cyclists may as well not show up, unless they want second place. Also apply this scenario to the 100 yard dash in the CT state finals, where I’m sure girls were competing for college scholarships, and two trans girls won the championships. It’s all fair to the trans woman athlete, but unfair to all the woman cyclists and runners who compete.

Imagine your little girl is very talented in tennis. She trains hard her whole childhood. You hope that she can get a college scholarship and play on the national circuit. But then you see that in the finals she is matched with a trans girl, and you know that biologically your daughter does not stand a chance, nor do any of the daughters of the other parents who showed up to compete. What is fair?

IMO, the most fair answer is that they compete as their own class, or in an open category.

Put me in the camp of weight/height versus male/female-cis/trans.

A 6'4" cis woman would have an advantage over a 5'4" trans woman in track meets, swimming competitions and even bicycling.

@neetsiepie - possibly, but a 6’4” trans woman would have an advantage over a 6’4” woman.

And it is people like arcy that make my family unsafe. I am the collateral damage that happened in a marriage that included a trans person. We were married for twenty five years. My spouse just couldn't hide who s/he was anymore and I could not stay married to a woman (nothing to do with morals, I am just not a lesbian). The divorce was hard. For me, for him, for our children. If I am honest, I didn't much like this person and how I and our children were treated. And that had zero to do with the trans issue. Through all of this, I instisted that my children and anybody else who was in my life, treated this person with basic respect. I was even known to confront others if their interaction was questionable. My bottom line has been that every single person/soul/spirit needs civility and respect. Even those we may not like a whole lot.

Regarding the original question, I don't have any answers. I tend to stay quiet as I think my opinions are colored by that collateral damage piece and maybe not so accurate or appropriate.

Rocky did you read the articles in velonews? So far there hasn’t been a trans woman who has dominated no matter what. Although this woman won one race in a middle aged class, that doesn’t seem to indicate unparalleled dominance?

Rocky, as a practical matter they cannot compete in their own class; there are not enough of them.

This issue, which, AGAIN, I believe has no good answers, is a classic problem of strict utilitarianism.

Who do you want to be fair to? The one trans woman who will always win, or the 100 cyclists,

The intuitive answer to most people is the 100! It is a numbers question, yes? Maximize happiness for the greatest number of people. That is strict utilitarianism.

In its application though, strict utilitarianism would never recognize the rights of any minority groups. Let's say most people are a little uneasy about a mosque in their neighborhood after 911. Less than 1% of the US population is muslim (Pew). A strict utilitarian would say, no mosques anywhere. And probably no muslims either. Much of the other 99% would feel better. Or how about gays? Let's say you think they are all sinners and you find them distasteful. I don't know about today, but definitely in the past this was true. Utilitarians would say, banish them, convert them, and most certainly do not give them rights.

PS My kids have all had philosophy course in HS that went over this, it has spurred many a dinner convo. Particularly this story :

“The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas” Ursula Le Guin

Actually, weight/height classes for cycling don't make sense (many top cyclists, i.e. mountain climbers are very small and light; it's the cardiovascular system, oxygen intake, muscle mass, and that's were men have the advantage). So, testosterone levels are a good start IMO.

To throw more into this discussion, does anybody remember the 800 m women's final at the Rio Olympics? Looked like the first three finishers (and more participants) were intersex, see https://indianexpress.com/sports/rio-2016-olympics/half-of-the-800m-final-in-rio-might-well-be-intersex-2914557/

Interestingly, Caster Semenya's times and their correlation to her testosterone levels provide some insights. (May also explain why quite a few male cyclists are on "testosterone therapy").

Robo - I dont understand your point. Are you saying that because she was not a first place finisher in her prior races, that she did not dominate and therefore it is not an issue? She had only recently taken up cycling. I would not expect her to jump into a race and win immediately. She is competing against seasoned athletes. It takes years to develop your muscles to cycle. When I am in shape, I can beat most of my unfit male friends cycling. But when they are also in shape, I do not stand a chance against them. They have much more power than me. Note that the trans woman only took up track racing a year prior, while the other women had been competing and training for many years on the track.

Mtn - You are comparing apples to oranges. These are not equivalent scenarios. If you allow mosques in the neighborhood, neighbors may be disgruntled but their lives are not significantly altered. If gays are not converted, the public’s lives are not altered. One is an irrational fear/hate (of gays and Muslims) with no real impact or change in outcome (if gays are not converted/mosques built), the other is a potential to destroy women’s sports and opportunities for women. This is not about “feelings” but about a real outcome with real effects on people’s lives. If you allow transgender women, with distinct biological advantages to compete, you are altering the lives and opportunities of generations women and girls.

Someone has to lose. Is it generations of women and girls, who have fought so hard for equal access to sports? Or is it the small number of transgender women, who were born male, underwent puberty as males, and as such have a distinct biological advantage over women?

Nosoccormom- that is an interesting article, especially since it was written by a transgender athlete/scientist who appears to be worried about the threat transgender athletics pose to women’s sports. Reading this article, it is clear that transgender domination in sports is becoming more common, at least in the 800 m. I had no doubt that Castor would win the 800 m event. I dont think that testosterone levels are a good measure, because again, transgender bodies have developed differently due to prior testosterone exposure.

Rocky, my point is that you are describing a threat - trans athletes dominating women’s sports - which to date hasn’t seemed to have happened. a handful of trans athletes that I can see have won elite competitions in any division of women’s cycling incl mtb, worldwide, in the past 20 years. That hardly seems like total dominance of a sport. If you assume transitioned population prevalence of .3%, all else being equal physically you’d expect about 3/1000 competitions to be won by trans women. I have to think we are on the low side of that.

This reminded me of a fascinating episode of Radiolab I heard not that long ago, about a gifted Indian athlete - a young woman who failed a gender test.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/dutee

"In 2014, India’s Dutee Chand was a rising female track and field star, crushing national records. But then, that summer, something unexpected happened: she failed a gender test. And was banned from the sport. Before she knew it, Dutee was thrown into the middle of a controversy that started long before her, and continues on today: how to separate males and females in sport."

Robo, they represent only .3% of the population, yet if you read the article that nosoccormom printed, it is speculated that the entire 800m field in the olympics was composed of transgender and “intersex” women. There were at least two transgender athletes from England plus Castor Semanya, who is arguably transgender, and possibly more, whose genetic makeup is not publicized due to privacy reasons. How are women to compete with this? Reading the article, I venture that we should not encourage talented XX girls to train for the 800 m since they cannot compete against trans girls. The 800m is in essence a closed door to them. What does this remind you of? ...how about the days when women did not have access to sports, because they are women....

Seondly, world dominance or not, it matters to the women competing. The woman who was expected to win the world championship masters division dropped out when she saw McKinnon was competing. It matters to the women who took second and third place. It matters to the girls who were competing at the CT high school track championship and lost to the trans girls. It matters the women who lost out on the international weight lifting competition. It matters to the women who did not make the British 800m Olympic team because two trans women took their place.

Do you think the XX women just jump into these events? They spend their lives training for these events, sacrificing careers and putting off having children. For only representing 0.3% of the population, I would say that transgender athletes are becoming pretty visible in sports. I also would not be surprised if their participation is much greater than we know, because of privacy reasons. And I would venture to guess that their “dominance” in women’s sports will only increase as transgenders become more accepted and visible in society.

What do you think the correct solution is Rockybird?

Of course, it's going to be more of a problem in sports in the future. How anyone can doubt that, is not facing reality. robo, a lot has changed in the past 20 years.

When you are talking about sports scholarships and/or even just plain playing competitive sports-it is serious business today, and, I agree a transgender woman competing in women's events, makes it a very unfair playing field.

crl, you can't please everyone. Maybe there isn't a solution for transgender women who wants to play in women's sports. Should they be accepted in society, of course! I mean, it's not hard to understand WHY they shouldn't compete in women's sports. So, there may be no solution for them. There is no solution for my basketball playing DS, who wants to be 6'4"- it ain't gonna happen.

Crl, there is no correct solution. But the best solution, in my opinion, is that competition is based on genotype, not phenotype. Transgenders can compete in a separate open category. I’m sure community races can define gender how they like, and be open about it, so everyone knows who their competitors may be, but high school, college, professional, and sanctioned events, IMO, should define sex by chromosomal makeup. It is unfair to trans women in that they wish to be recognized wholly as women, but they represent 0.3% of the population, whereas XX women represent 50% of the population, and again, trans women have a distinct biological advantage. The fact of the matter is that these women started life out as males. It is not a level playing field.

I think this is the begining of the end for born females competitive sports. It's a shame for the high schoolers from poor families or inner city areas who used to get scholarships for college. There will be less opportunities for those girls. I think if you are a woman who was never good at sports or don't have daughters who are good at sports...you might not understand what a sad thought that is.

Rockybird, I completely agree with you regarding athletic competition. While I consider myself liberal regarding LGBTQ rights, I don’t believe a man becoming a woman after developing as a man should compete on the athletic level with women. I’m sure that wasn’t on this person’s mind when he signed up, and perhaps he meant no harm by his participation, but it’s not the first time this particular hornets nest has been stirred. And I suspect it won’t be the last.

Perhaps allowing a separate competition or category, while it would single them out, would be best. Even though I am not truly competitive, I am bracketed by age in various running events. Imagine how devastated some women will be when they turn a milestone age, only to find out a former man will have ‘beat’ a former women’s running course record or taken an age-group award.

Mtn - You are comparing apples to oranges. These are not equivalent scenarios. If you allow mosques in the neighborhood, neighbors may be disgruntled but their lives are not significantly altered. If gays are not converted, the public’s lives are not altered. One is an irrational fear/hate (of gays and Muslims) with no real impact or change in outcome (if gays are not converted/mosques built), the other is a potential to destroy women’s sports and opportunities for women. This is not about “feelings” but about a real outcome with real effects on people’s lives. If you allow transgender women, with distinct biological advantages to compete, you are altering the lives and opportunities of generations women and girls.

Not really, the concept is the same. Harm is harm, even if difficult to quantify or even if you personally do not identify it as harmful.

Your point is that the solution that maximizes the well being of the greatest number is de facto the best/most fair solution.

I am pointing out that, using that yardstick, minorities of any type are not well served.

That is why is it a true dilemma.

@mtn - All harm is not the same. We are not saying, for example, that a girl cannot compete because she has red hair and the general population does not like red hair. We are saying that trans women have an unfair advantage when competing against XX women, so therefore they should not compete against XX women.

Is there a clear cut unfair advantage? I’m not seeing the evidence in results. Nor do I see the evidence coming out of kinesiology/physiology studies.

Robo:

trans women have:

- won the largest cycling race in az

- won the International weight lifting championship

- took first place in the world masters track cycling championship

- won the 100 m in the CT high school state track race

- won the 200 m in the CT high school state track race

- represented Britain (both spots) in the 800m olympics

I’m sure there’s lots more. Also, my guess is that many trans women do not reveal their birth gender in sports due to privacy reasons.

I consider this evidence, but I guess it’s up to you to decide for yourself.

With all due respect, I will give it one last go. : )

Saying that the harm of a group is always more important than the harm to one person, is strict utilitarian thinking and a way of weighing problems and resolving issues that philosophers rejected about 200 yrs ago.

rockybird, scientific reality doesn’t correlate to your proposed solution. I think this is very complicated both scientifically and ethically.

There are many different intersex variations. Some intersex people have ambiguous genitalia or internal sex organs, such as a person with both ovarian and testicular tissues. Other intersex people have a combination of chromosomes that is different than XY (male) and XX (female), like XXY. And some people are born with what looks like totally male or totally female genitals, but their internal organs or hormones released during puberty don’t match.

If a person is born with intersex genitalia, they might be identified as intersex at birth. For people born with more clearly male or female external genitals, they might not know they’re intersex until later in life, like when they go through puberty. Sometimes a person can live their whole life without ever discovering that they’re intersex.

(Emphasis added)

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/sexual-orientation-gender/gender-gender-identity/whats-intersex

Rocky, How did you feel about another dilemma (different but relevant). Should Pistorius have been allowed to compete in the Olympics?

Mtn - I’ll give it one more go. :) While the idiom you cite certainly has merit, and of course I agree with it to some extent, it is too general and cannot be broadly applied to all circumstances in society. Otherwise, should we acknowledge that pedophiles (who represent a minority) have a right to molest the children of the majority? The pedophiles will argue that they were born this way. The majority will resist, saying harm will come to the children. My argument is that you fail to define harm to the majority. By your argument, XY cross dressing men, who are physically and hormonally intact, should be allowed to compete against XX women. Of course the XY men will win everytime. What are your thoughts on Rachael Doezal, who was white and identifies as black? She represents a minority of the black community, or does she? What if more white people identified as black? In the black community, they would represent a minority with rights. Do they have a right to compete for benefits, scholarships and jobs, generally reserved for the black community?

No, I do not think that Pistorius should have been allowed to compete.

Crl - you are correct, in that it is more complicated than chromosomes alone for extremely rare cases, such as hermaphrodites or androgen resistant males. XXY individuals phenotypically develop as males, produce testosterone, and are generally considered males, although there is a spectrum to testosterone levels. BTW, there is speculation that Michael Phelps is XXY.

I’m not sure that I would characterize 1 in 100 as extremely rare.

Thank you all for an enlightening, respectful debate about this. I'm learning a great deal.

it is too general and cannot be broadly applied to all circumstances in society.

Yes, which is why many subsequent philosophers threw out utilitarianism in favor of the idea of absolute rights and wrongs.

In other words, don't use math to decide moral questions.

Which brings me back to where I started. There is no way to be fair to both. Saying trans can compete with other trans will pretty much mean no competitions for them at all. Allowing trans to compete against all will unfairly disadvantage others.

I think the international federations have taken a stab at leveling the playing field by limiting T, mandating hormones, doing the stand down period, etc. (none of which applied to the Connecticut high schooler, btw, who did not continue to win anyway--it only seems to be controversial when the girls are winning their races). Perhaps there's more research there and more to be done in terms of physiology.

@crl that statistic represents a myriad of medical disorders as described by Fausto and there is controversy as to whether they represent true intersex conditions. Some doctors estimate that the true numbers of intersex individuals is closer to 0.018%. As I said, true hermaphrodites are exceptionally rare. It is estimated that 1 of every 20,000 males has androgen insensitivity syndrome. Here is the commonly reported list, originally described by Fausto, from which that statistic comes from. By the way, condition (a) happens in XX women who may have no symptoms, can occur in adults and is treatable. I would not consider this an intersex condition.

(a) late-onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia (LOCAH), 1.5/100; (b) Klinefelter (XXY), 0.0922/100; (c) other non-XX, non-XY, excluding Turner and Klinefelter, 0.0639/100; (d) Turner syndrome (XO), 0.0369/100; (e) vaginal agenesis, 0.0169/100; (f) classic congenital adrenal hyperplasia, 0.00779/10; (g) complete androgen insensitivity, 0.0076/100; (h) true hermaphrodites, 0.0012/100; (i) idiopathic, 0.0009/100; and (j) partial androgen insensitivity, 0.00076/100.

From a medical paper evaluating the list (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Journal+of+sex+research+sax):

“The chief problem with this list is that the five most common conditions listed are not intersex conditions. If we examine these five conditions in more detail, we will see that there is no meaningful clinical sense in which these conditions can be considered intersex. “Deviation from the Platonic ideal” is, as we will see, not a clinically useful criterion for defining a medical condition such as intersex.

The second problem with this list is the neglect of the five most common of these conditions in Fausto-Sterling’s book Sexing the Body (Fausto-Sterling, 2000). In her book, Fausto-Sterling draws her case histories exclusively from the ranks of individuals who are unambiguously intersex. However, using Fausto-Sterling’s own figures, such individuals account for less than 0.02% of the general population. None of her case histories are drawn from the five most common conditions in her table, even though these five conditions constitute roughly 99% of the population she defines as intersex. Without these five conditions, intersex becomes a rare occurrence, occurring in fewer than 2 out of every 10,000 live births.”

Hi Robo, I agree. We are only on the cusp and there is definitely more research needed. BTW, the trans girls did win the state championships, one of them winning for the second year in a row, and as a freshman and sophomore no less.

https://www.wtnh.com/news/connecticut/transgender-track-stars-win-state-championship-ignite-debate-over-rules/1235044455

Couple of random points:

Are there any trans individuals who now compete as males, or is this a non issue?

Also, intersex is quite different from transgender. After reading about the CT teens, IMO unless they have transitioned, competing against girls puts them at an unfair advantage.

Lastly, we actually had a discussion about this track cyclist, mainly because my family members have been/are very active in the cycling scene. One point raised that in amateur/master racing it's not that big an issue. Yes, you won't get the rainbow jersey, but at that level, many athletes don't compete for the medals but rather for the personal accomplishment. So, you and others from that community know where you stand and what it means. At the pro or scholarship level, where large amounts of money are at stake, or in communities where athletic accomplishments can lift a whole family from poverty, this is a very different issue.

At the last Olympics, there was a story of an Indian female intersex sprinter, who was far behind internationally, but still was the Indian champion and whose whole family's livelihood depended on her athletics and the financial support they had received. As a male with those running times, she would not have warranted a second look. May not be fair to other non-intersex girls.

Oh, mtn raised the issue with Pistorius: When my son was running in high school, there was a huge controversy locally with girl in a wheel chair who wanted to participate in races against runners on the track. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatyana_McFadden#Competition

And this, transgender boy, who's taking testosterone, is forced to wrestle against the girls:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/era-equality-sports-handle-transgender-athletes-article-1.3849591

Recently I attended a session that featured a transsexual M-F speaker. Had I not had their biography, I would never have know they were trans. They presented as very feminine, were small boned and petite. They may have been an avid bicyclist-and if so, who would know that they were trans?

I just don't feel that by creating this sub-class of a minority of trans people who may have a physicological advantage-or disadvantage-would be acceptable. I still argue that there could be a cis female who has a greater body mass or longer bones or whatever it would take to put her at an advantage amongst other cis females. When we start going down that slope of singling out the minority-we start going down an dangerous precipice.

Nosoccormom, I have to disagree with your cycling friends. I would not discount the importance of that race to the competitors. It was the world cycling amateur competition. These women are probably training 20 hours a week minimum and are traveling the country racing the circuit. Although these women are a little older, it is these types of races that Olympic athletes are chosen from. It absolutely matters to these women and should not be discounted because it is an amateur race.

Neetsie, I have to disagree with you. There are small men and large women, but women overall are at a disadvantage when matched up with a similarly sized man. And many small men are top pro cyclists. Regardless most men are taller and heavier than women and therefore it would reason that most transgender women will be taller and heavier than women. There are not many 5’2” men out there but there are many women that size. I suspect you and many of the people disagreeing with me on this are not competitive athletes. I can tell you that my cyclist women friends are upset at the prospect of transgender competition. They all truly believe transgender women carry an unfair biological advantage. I really do appreciate reading every ones thoughts.

Rocky, I totally agree.

Rocky, I agree. I think competitions should be based on biological DNA.

And, alas, I think transgender men (with XX chromosomes) who have been taking testosterone need to have that testosterone considered as an enhancing drug, and disqualified from competing with women for prizes. It could be matter of choice if they want to compete with XY men.

That being said, I've known a couple wonderful (male to female) Tg women -- I just would not expect them to compete athletically as anything other than being transgender, assuming either of them actually had that inclination.

I read the post about the person not competing because of a certain competitor, then skipped down to post.....so I may have missed something, sorry.

WHY would you give up on a race because of this?? They can trip just the same as every other competitor.

I have never been a “competitive person”, but I have competed a LOT with my horses. I have never had a trainer....I did all of that myself, and went to shows on my own.

Once, a new aquaintence asked me HOW I could possibly go to those big shows; wasn’t I scared with so many other competitors? No, I just showed my horses. Who cares who the others are? If my horse performed, and I did what was needed, then we did well. If we messed up, we messed up, whether we were next door with 2 competitors, or at a national show with 30 competitors.

One part of my equine sports has been known to be particularly snobbish. I take my non-conformist horses (and self...nobody would pin ME as an athlete out of a crowd) to those shows, cheered and complimented and congratulated my competitors, had a great time, and WON.

If we used sportsmanship and built up our competitors by encouraging them, and therefore ourselves, imagine how much more fun sports could be.

@Rocky. I see your point, which incidentally led to this heated discussion among my friends and family members.

However, the point I wanted to make much more is that for some the issue whether a competition is fair or not has major financial implications and, moreover, may hugely affect the livelihood of their family --- more than just a medal or a podium spot for a financially well-off amateur master.

Which is also why I'm totally baffled when I hear that master cyclists use all the doping known (and available) to mankind. Really? But that's a different story.

Speaking of doping, if you haven’t seen the movie Icarus on Netflix, totally worth the watch!

“When filmmaker Bryan Fogel sets out to uncover the truth about doping in sports, a chance meeting with a Russian scientist transforms his story from a personal experiment into a geopolitical thriller.”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qXoRdSTrR-4

Does anyone remember the story about this young swimmer? She set all kinds of high School records and was heavily recruited. She elected to swim for Harvard. During her gap year she transitioned to a man. Harvard offered her the choice of either team. She chose to swim on the men’s team.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuyler_Bailar

According to NCAA rules, transgender women must undergo one year of testosterone suppression therapy before they can compete on women's teams. Of course, while this may decrease muscle mass, it won't turn male bodies into female bodies.

I can't figure out exactly at what level he swam in high school, but it looks like his current level is quite a bit lower. So, testosterone does not seem to compensate for other physical "shortcomings" (probably literally a shorter stature, smaller wing span, etc.)

My kids were varsity athletes at D1 schools in a sport where "bigger" is perceived as "better". One girl on the team transitioned from female to male, and there was no way she would have been able to compete on the men's team.