Slightly altered 5-1-1 mix. Do you think this will work?

5 years ago

Hi all,

From relatively recent exposure to the 5-1-1 soil mix thread, I have decided to try my hand at it when I repot my container perennials next spring. I want to try swapping a few materials, however. The original recipe calls for:

5 parts pine bark fines (partially composted fines are best)
1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat please)
1-2 parts perlite
garden lime (or gypsum in some cases)
controlled release fertilizer (if preferred)

I'm planning to replace the perlite with lava rock. I hate perlite's color and the way it floats, so I figured lava rock will fulfill the same purpose. I also plan on replacing the peat with Coast of Maine potting soil. I have experience using this potting soil, so I know it retains moisture quite well, which fulfills the same purpose as the peat.

So, what do you think of this slight modification?

Additionally, I haven't found much information on how much garden lime to put. I heard that this was to combat the acidity of peat, but as I'm not going to use peat, is this still necessary?

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gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

5 years ago

It should work fine. I use a modified 5-1-1 mix myself and have done so for years. The commercial potting soil I use is heavily bark based to begin with but I add more bark fines and perlite or pumice.

Most peat based potting soils are already pH neutralized so the addition of lime is optional if going this route. The bark is acidic but not nearly to the same degree as the peat. And I tend to grow plants that prefer more acidic conditions to begin with so I have never added lime but rely rather on the fertilizers to make sure all nutrients are fully available.

(Note. I assume by lava rock you mean pumice :-) Lava rock in my world is much too large a size and is used typically as a mulch rather than a potting mix ingredient. Pumice, which is a type of lava rock, is available in the same sizes as is perlite.)

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Comments (13)

L Lake
Original Author
5 years ago
Thanks so much gardengal48! You always give the clearest advice. I actually found lava rock on Amazon that's broken down to 1/4th of an inch (link to the product here), so I'm probably going to go for this, but pumice isn't that different either so that's a good option too!
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
5 years ago
potting media is a water management system .... and regardless of whatever it is.. if you learn how to water it properly .... then just about anything should work ...

imo .... if perlite floats in your media .... then there is too much.. or too large a proportion of perlite in the mix ....

the one time i had this particular fail .... it was because i did not wet the media prior to use .... so when i had to flood the dry media in the pots.. the perlite floated to the top ...

so next time.. i pulled out the old baby pool.. and used that to make the mix ... wetting each product before incorporation to the hole .... an additional bonus.. is reduction of the dust associated with each product ....

i knew a hosta maven.. who went with chicken grit as the variable we are discussing .... it worked for him ... except.. the biggest side effect.. was his one gallon pots weighed a ton ... almost blew a disc lifting one.. at a garden show .... but it worked for him.. spectacularly .... besides the fact.. that as his hosta got large.. the pots didnt fall over in wind .... so.. a plus.. and a minus ...

working with pots.. i would prefer to be in charge of all fert ... using water soluble fert when necessary .... when you start with products that already have fert .. you really dont know what your mix will end up with .... and i would expand that to include soil amendments such as your pH discussion .... try not to fix things.. that may never end up being a problem ...

no clue where you are ... but i am leery of incorporating time release fert ... formulas range from 3 to 9 months ... and in my MI ... the season isnt even 9 months.. so if i used such ... the plants would not be slowing down toward dormancy in fall ... and that would lead to root rots.. crown rots.. and winter death ... [this is probably completely opposite gal in the pnw ...]

you can always add a bit in spring ... and further use the water sol ... but if you put it all in your mix.. you are in big trouble.;. if you get it wrong ...

can you add your location on your members page.. so it shows up next to your name??? .. thx ..

ken
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
5 years ago
"potting media is a water management system .... and regardless of whatever it is.. if you learn how to water it properly .... then just about anything should work ..."

Unfortunately, that is just not a valid theory :-) There are major differences in the types of soil media to be used in containers and some will be and remain inadequate and hold on to moisture far too long. It has nothing to do with the frequency of the watering but how that specific soil mix allows percolation and water retention. Some - specifically peat based mixes - will also collapse and compress too rapidly, further impeding drainage and reducing aeration. So "just about anything" will NOT work!! Or work well to the best potential of the plants.
antipodean
5 years ago
If you don't like the look of perlite simply mulch the top with say some of the chunkier pine bark bits or make a small portion of mix without the perlite and top each container with that.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
5 years ago
hey gal ... sounds like you are splitting hairs.. supporting your disagreement with my comment by suggesting the media is a water management system?????

my words dont always wax poetic ... but we both further the discussion ..... so two thumbs up.. eh ... i always like to enable young peeps about gardening ....

floating perlite sux .. lol .. it either means i screwed up the mix.. or i screwed up the watering... which means i failed ... ergo ... it has to be fixed .... its a much deeper issue than i just dont like to look at it ... lol ...

ken
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
5 years ago
on hitting submit.. i saw his topic title ....

Slightly altered 5-1-1 mix

i think part of the issue.. for me.. is that there is nothing especially perfect about the 5-1-1 system .. other than it has been discussed to death here in GW houzz for years .... and dont get me wrong.. its a great topic .... its the basis of how i developed my water management theory/comments...

and to perfect it.. you tweak it to your use.. location.. watering ... etc ....

i learned this basic aspect when i visited plant specific nurseries ... e.g. the media used for hosta is bipolar to what is used for trees/conifer ... for different reasons ... each might be considered a 5-1-1 mix ... on some level ... but what those 3 things are can be wildly different ...

so .... slightly altering it.. should make a slight difference ... when you look at the ingredient purpose in the overall mix ....

coffee kicked in.. not sure what my point was anymore... lol ....

ken
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
5 years ago
Ken, I was not splitting hairs. I was disagreeing with your statement that "just about anything would work". When it comes to a potting soil "just about anything" doesn't work!! If that were the case, the Houseplant forum, the Cacti and Succulents forum and the Container Gardening forum would not be plastered with countless posts from people who have all sorts of plant difficulties due to a poorly conceived, excessively moisture retentive and unstable potting soil.
mblan13
5 years ago
I have substituted Pumice, Lava (Scoria), Turface (calcined clay), OptiSorb (Diatomaceous earth), haydite (expanded slate and or shale) and zeolite (not entirely sure that isn't just pumice relabled to charge an arm and a leg in the aquarium trade).

I have made 5-1-1, 4-1-1, 3-1-1, 3-2-1.

You can modify it for any plant, as long as you match the preferred needs of the plant. If I put my Cardinal Lobelia in 5-1-1 it will not flower, I put it in Miracle Grow Potting Mix with the pine bark sifted out and the pot sitting in a 6" deep pot of water (literally...mud) and it flowers like gangbusters.
L Lake
Original Author
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Thanks for the advice @mblan13 and @gardengal48! I'm actually going to be using this on my favorite plant, which is a young white Japanese Wisteria. Wisteria like well draining soil, so I'm debating on doing 5-1-1, 4-1-1, or a 3-1-1. I know it's different per climate, but how many times a week do you usually water for 5-1-1, 4-1-1, and 3-1-1? I want to get a very general idea of how long each watering usually lasts.

I'm in Cambridge, MA, so a zone 6.
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
5 years ago
It's pretty much impossible to provide any specifics about watering........way too many variables!! Environmental conditions, indoors or out, size of container, water demands of the plant, etc. Sometimes I may water every few days or a couple of times a week; for other containers, that might be only once a week or less during the growing season. My containers are large enough and my weather mild enough that I never have to water on a daily basis but that too could be a possibility depending on all the other factors involved.

The best I can tell you is to water when the plants need it. And water thoroughly when you do, so that the water runs freely out the drainage holes. Then don't water again until the soil is dry or the plants demand it.

Many use the skewer method or insert a thin wooden dowel or chopstick down into the potted soil. If it comes out with the tip damp, there is still adequate moisture in the soil mix. If dry, it's time to water.
mblan13
5 years ago
And you will have to water more often than you may be used to with peat based soils. I have Salvias that need watered twice a day in 90+ weather. I have others that I only require watering every couple of days.

I sometimes use other plants to gauge watering. I have a potted Porterweed and when the flower stalk starts to sag at the tip, it's time to water!
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
5 years ago
After reading through the thread, I agree that your plan to sub lava rock for perlite and a commercially prepared potting soil for the medium's peat fraction should work fine, as long as the size of the bark and lava rock aren't too large or widely divergent in size. I also stand on the side of Pam in her assertion that you cannot expect a soil you have to water in sips to regulate moisture levels to cooperate with you as fully as a soil you can water at will to beyond the point of saturation without having to pay a tax in the form of diminished root health or function. If we take interest in the growing experience of others to the extent we get a sense of satisfaction from knowing we helped, providing information that allows them to recognize or create soils they don't have to battle for control over their plants' root health is probably the most significant help someone could offer. So moving away from soils that demand micromanagement when that ability might be in short supply yields significantly more potential, even to growers with years of experience, for plants to realize more of their genetic potential.

Al

Slightly altered 5-1-1 mix. Do you think this will work?

gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

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L Lake
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Slightly altered 5-1-1 mix. Do you think this will work?

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