@Joseph Corlett, LLC - I'm going to point out to you that at no point in this discussion did I ever break apart the quote into estimates on labor vs. material. If you'll review, you'll see that it was the rest of you who brought up "$340 in upcharges" and "$700 in labor costs."

I asked for guidance on whether the quote I received was fair. That's it. I'm still getting conflicting opinions, so I'm still not sure if the quote is fair.

You don't tell what is and what isn't my concern.

one way to get check is to get competive quotes, sometimes easier said than done.

The $340 was from simply deducting the Insert install price from the full frame install price. The $700 was a rough estimate of the labor cost by estimating the cost of the window adding the standard charge and upcharge charge. Fuzzy math as GW would say. Most home owners are willing to pay more for a quality job, but like most they want to feel like they are being treated fairly and not being ripped off. You don’t have to take it or leave it either, there’s usually room to negotiate( I’d say plenty here) .

Laura: Respectfully, you are the only one who can determine whether or not the quote is "fair". Usually that is determined by the marketplace.

No, as seen above what is fair can be determined by many, But Laura s The one who has to flip the bill.

Laura, your best bet is to get additional quotes to determine "fairness" in this case. Look for similar companies in size and reputation, as well as products that are well regarded and similar performance. This will be your best method for determining what is fair IMO. While the "blunt" nature of some of the comments above may be off-putting, there is inherent truth there. Be careful about analyzing "up-charges" and things like that, as companies do not all structure their pricing the same way. Some may build in their overhead and profit into product, some to labor. Some to base price, some to options and upgrades. Some may have high prices on upgrades that they really don't like to do, such as full frame installs-- just because they don't like to do them... I realize that this deep analysis seems to have been suggested more by others on this thread than yourself, but I'd just reinforce that it can be misleading. The final price of your options, built in an apples to apples manner as much as possible is the best way to compare in my humble opinion. I believe in doing so you'll find that the option that you currently have on the table is pretty solid in terms of value as I mentioned earlier, but again, you will be the final arbiter of that.

Keep in mind some advice you’re getting is from other Okna dealers. They would probably tell you that $1200 per opening is great price and All the other bs that goes with it. Not Knocking the product but just dislike the how some approaches.

Laura, I assume that Todd‘s comments are directed at me since I carry the Okna line among others. I regularly recommend products that I compete directly against, as I take pride in given good and accurate advice. My company is an open book as you can see, feel free to ask if you have any questions of me or the accuracy of the advice that I offer.

Once again, I strongly recommend getting a couple more quotes as opposed to siding with one yahoo or another bickering on a web forum.

Thanks

Thank you, both, @HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC and @toddinmn. I have very much enjoyed the, er, discussion here! I already know that Okna is one of the best brands available in my area. Your advice to get multiple quotes is absolutely spot on (in fact, to date, I've received 6 quotes!). I'm just not sure which brands to explore at this point. The Alsides, Harveys, Pellas - they're just not as good. Sunlight, Soft-Lite? Should I revisit Pella? Look at Andersen? I know the values to compare: U-factor, SHGC, visible transmittance, CR. Welded seams, non-metal spacer?

You know how this goes - after a certain point, your eyeballs start spinning in your head, and you feel compelled to just make a decision, fer Pete's sake.

Imma set this down for a few days, take a break, and then reapproach with fresh eyes. Thanks again for the help. I'd be glad to post when I make a final decision, along with the price, if it's of interest.

Soft-Light would be an excellent comparison , the LS and Element are very good.. They like the Okna are often from exclusive dealers that charge exclusive pricing. Well worth the time, perhaps?

@toddinmn, I just sent you a private message, FYI.

Price sounds good to me, Id day it low End actually. No such thing as exclusive products anymore btw. Most of those windows mentioned have at least a few installers in a given market. They just simply don’t sell to pick up truck hacks that will leave the manufacturer holding a bag of crap when it comes to warranty after their cheapo installs. Theres no conspiracy. You get what you pay for. Be careful about the advice that you follow espechalky since you’ve already been burned once.

I have not seen it yet. I am on the look out though.

Eclusive; restricted or limited to the person, group or area concerned.

This would fit the definition of many Dealers selling higher end vinyl windows.

If I wanted to open up as an Okna dealer on Ryerson road in New Berlin I think it perhaps may not be allowed. If by chance I could, I would probably be restricted to the “Frankenstein“ 600 series as my top performer and off limits to the Himark lines.

Even in a big city with dealers on opposite sides Soft-Lite will give Dealers the Element and the other the LS. This is to create exclusivity and just basic marketing 101 . It is also a great tool and keeping prices up. Any yahoo and nincompoop can buy high end products from highly touted companies like Marvin and Andersen, but they too have exclusive lines that exclusive and command top dollar. No conspiracy , just marketing. Not saying this is all bad, just calling it what it is.

That’s a pretty twisted way of looking at things. The fact is almost any legitimate widnow company will buy direct from the manufactuer. Manufacturers will only sell to a small handful of installation companies in a market. Theres no need to have one on each corner, just like there is no need to have a Toyota dealer on each corner or a McDonald’s. Are those instances price fixing? Or is it just the window business because scabby pickup truck contractors can’t get their hands on decent products so that they can undercut the guy running a real business? Pick up truck contractors = buying shoes out of a guys trunk on the seedy side of town. Don’t go back for warranty when you notice that the logo says NIKEE and they are falling apart. You get what you pay for

Twisted perhaps , but exclusive yes.

pricing Is just marketing, I do not price on what I consider makes a good living , mostly based on what the market will bear.For example; if. I am bidding against Softlite dealer, I will automatically raise my prices, If I am bidding new construction my prices will need to come down. On government bids my prices will be based on my competitors if there are none my price are based on the maximum I’ll know that they will pay.. some industries are not as exclusive as others. I could open a shoe shop Across the street from another. Nike retailer and sell Nike or whatever. Car dealers do it to a certain extent and certain brands more than others but using analogies from different industries just makes things more confusing and misleading.

pick up truck dudes can buy good quality products if they want, but a customer show of be able to filter these people out .

That’s called gouging and it’s unethical. Professionals price their jobs based on their margins.

That’s called charging what the market will bear. So if the original poster gets A price on an install , then ask for price For install that is just as easy and it cost an extra $3600 this is then fair and not gouging?

i Didn’t even list my pricing but you call Me unethical and unprofessional and accuse me of gouging. Sounds like a One way street . whatever. I say is right to fit my argument is a poor name for a street by the way.

"On government bids my prices will be based on my competitors..."

I never let competitors determine my pricing. That guy could be going down a bankruptcy hole and you just stepped in front of him. If I can't sell value, no Joe for you.

Obviously I would still know where my profit margins are and. I’m not doing them at a losIs and I try not leave money on the table. I would imagine if you are installing or repairing counter tops in your market and similar companies are getting on 50% more for similar work it would be considered smart IMO to raise prices regardless if I’m making 50k or 1mil per year. If one was bidding jobs and not getting due to price. One would want perhaps lower price or leave the market. My guess is you know where you need to be after 15 years, but it would be foolish not to know your competition From a business standpoint.

Joe and Fridge, try googling marketing 101 and let me know what you come up with, any questions I would ask Homesealed , he’s pretty smart From what. I have seen.

What does any of this have to do with marketing? So you bid low when you know youre against a cheap bid, and high when u get the unsuspecting person that may have already had out renewal or another high priced outfit. Got it.

Like I said , google marketing 101. That’s how how I do it sometimes, every circumstance is different, different companies are set up different ways. UnlIke Most companies on here My workers are employees , I keep them busy year round at about 40 hours week in and out. i do residential commercia, new. Construction , federally funded projects, work outside of endows. My point is not all companies are the same, Some of the smart ones do anylise the market, know there competition,there profits margins can be based on more than 1 thing( this is a little marketing 101). Doing these things is not what most call unethical or unprofessional in the business world. My guess is you know all this or your an ????.

Send me your address , im gonna bill you for this information.

Vinyl siding is not a good investment. Their lifetime wty will see you with

No property insurance coverage outside that wty and when the company changes it's name in 5 years, you may be sad...

i would consider starting a new thread and explaining your problem more clearly.

Pricing a job is not marketing 101. It’s business 101, and joe corlet is right about how to do it.

https://www.audible.com/pd/Marketing-for-Dummies-Second-Edition-Audiobook/B002V016PK?source_code=GPAGBSH1103160002&cvosrc=ppc%20cse.google%20shopping.195434700&cvo_crid=71141938140&cvo_pid=18242098500&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIisLrnp7R3QIVTZJ-Ch0PTAbcEAQYAiABEgIkXPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds Here you go , you don’t even have to be able to read, just listen.

Todd your frustrated words suggest you have issues no one here can solve. We hope you have a better week ahead. Everyone is carrying their own problems and while they cannot all be solved here it is a bit of an escape from them. Thank you for your knowledge and expertise. Take Sunday off and we all hope for a better Fall ahead for small businesses and home owners! After 9 inches of rain since Noon Friday ...there are alot of folks in both categories needing that, especially...and the poor Caroliners have more than that to rebuild! Imagine their burdens!?!

There are not words of frustration, mostly of amusement. The only frustration I feel is for the Homeowner and the bs she has gone through.

Taking advantage by giving honest advice, That others happened today agree with as well ? Good advice is to go with Okna no matter the cost coming from an Okna dealer?

I would be leery of the one who has problems understanding basic words as business concepts, , slanders others, and seems generally confused.

Hi, guys, checking in this morning, and hoping we don't go further off the rails. I appreciate everyone's input and hope that we can agree to disagree politely.

The issue that is stopping me from pulling the trigger today with Okna is the salesrep. He's high pressure, using some tactics on me that, frankly, piss me off. There are no other Okna dealers/installers in my territory (by definition), but the dealer itself has a great rep.

Paradigm Windows out of Maine came up in conversation this weekend, I have a call out to them. Polaris seems to have terrible customer service, so they're off the list. Pella is a possibility, as is Marvin and Andersen.

Do any other names jump out at anybody? If so, I'd love to hear them. I hope to have a final decision by the end of the week. Thanks!

Being comfortable with and trusting the company doing the install is very important Laura, it deserves appropriate weight and can sway a decision even if the product and price are where you want to be. You might consider contacting management at that company and expressing your concerns with the sales rep. The way that they deal with it could show you something to make or break it as an option for you.

As far as other products, Softlite (Elements and LS) and Sunrise (Restoration, Vanguard) are good options that are pretty well regarded. Polaris makes a couple solid units as well. When you reference the poor customer service, is that regarding the manufacturer itself, or a dealer that you have spoken to? Forgive me if this was mentioned somewhere at the beginning of the thread... If its just the dealer, you can likely find another Polaris dealer if you search enough. You could even call Polaris and ask for a referral, and ask for a different company if they give you the one that gave you bad service. Same goes for the other manufacturers that you are considering. There could be another Okna dealer, a few Softilte dealers, etc.

I haven't yet dealt directly with Polaris, I uncovered several bad reviews of their customer service (manufacturer, warranty issues) and decided to not even bother.

I use Polaris, they are excellent with dealer service and warranty, my guess this is more if a dealer issue.

Kensington often get recommended not sure if they are there. Hard to find info on Paradigm. The ProVia Endure is nice window. Windows on Washington might have some info since this is closer to his area, a lot of brands are very regional.

Stay away from Pella And Andersen’s vinyl products. Marvin would only offer fiberglass and wood products.

I am no fan of Sunrise either.

@toddinmn, interesting - Sunrise consistently gets high marks. Is there an issue with the product that concerns you?

All, I have one quick question right now: do new construction windows cost more than replacement windows?

I'd agree with Todd, the customer service and warranty coverage from Polaris has been solid in my experience, and the Provia Endure is also nice. As far as Sunrise, Todd will certainly speak for himself, but my experience the casements are excellent, dh's are pretty good. I'd opt for a model with reinforcement and be careful about the choice in glass package. They are not the most installer friendly as they are a little more rackable than other options and the sill is pretty thin, but still a solid choice when properly installed IMO.

I was referring to Sunrise diuble hungs ands sliders only. New construction windows cost slightly more. I’d say about 10 to 20% tops of the window cost.

"All, I have one quick question right now: do new construction windows cost more than replacement windows? "

If you are referring to the window itself, generally yes, but just how much depends on what is entailed. If its just a nail fin slapped on it should be a smallish upcharge. If it includes jamb extensions that can be a major expense, although I believe that you said earlier that you were handling all interior woodwork. The real difference in price is in the installation as has been hashed out here, more than the product itself.

Thermal Park Avenue has receive good reviews, not sure about availability.

Hi Laura! There's some great discussion here about vinyl products, and we see that our products came up in conversation. We'd be happy to pass on your contact and project details to one of our reps in your area. Feel free to send us a DM with your info!

You can also schedule a free in-home consultation here.

Good luck with your project! ^KS

Just say Pella !

Replacement windows are designed for replacement, new construction for new construction.

For most vinyl windows, they are the same product, just with or without a nail fin and a different size.

He could be steering you away from new construction because its more difficult and time consuming. While the price obviously reflects the extra time/labor, it doesn't reflect the profit that COULD have been made doing a second replacement job in the same time span as one new construction job. Installers generally don't love them unless they are diverse in what they do, ie: installing windows today, siding tomorrow, roofing another day, etc, but even at that, replacements are typically less headaches and an "in and out" install.

The other, more sincere and helpful reason for pushing you away from new construction could simply be that you really dont need it, and you can save a bunch of money by going with replacement. Substantial rot, existing leakage, and sensitivity to any loss of glass area are the main reasons to go with new construction. You will find a lot of companies that push heavily one way or the other because that is just how they sell, but it should really depend on the individual circumstances so that you can weigh options for your situation. For you, given that you are having both the interior and exterior finishes already removed (siding and woodwork), it does simplify that new construction install so it becomes a more viable option IMO even if you didnt have any of the issues above.

If it was my house i would go nailfin without a doubt.

Okna is off the table. Really poor experience with the dealer, details later. Am moving on to Paradigm and Mathews Brothers. Thanks for all of your assistance!

UPDATE: Okna through the original dealer is off the table. Another dealer has been provided to me, I will update when I can. Thanks!

Good to have options :)